The Ian Madigan Thread

irishbucsfan

Don't think leaving out Fitzgerald or Bowe for McFadden would be worth it unless we were playing a minnow, but I'm hoping Luke McGraths development will suit Madigan.

Also, Madigan is a good kicker anyway.

phog

profitius wrote: »

Theres alot to be said for selecting a different type of 10. Look at Trin-Duc. He doesn't kick for France. He doesn't need to because their scrumhalfs take the kicks. Would France be better with kicking 10 there? No because Trin-Duc is easily their best attacking 10 in terms of running, passing and vision. Having a 10 like that gives a team a different attacking dimension. Is it worth not having that to have a 10 who can kick?

If Madigan proves himself in the Trin-Duc class then Ireland should play him. Stick McFadden on the wing or hope kickers come through in other positions ie Luke McGrath.

Why fix what's not broken? Your'e almost suggesting a couple of personnel changes to facilitate a guy. Wait until he's ready or needed and then see what's required. If we're stuck for an OH and Madigan fits the bill and he still doesn't kick then get another player on the field that can kick for him. I dont see the need to do that now.

Cpt_Blackbeard

profitius wrote: »

Theres alot to be said for selecting a different type of 10. Look at Trin-Duc. He doesn't kick for France. He doesn't need to because their scrumhalfs take the kicks. Would France be better with kicking 10 there? No because Trin-Duc is easily their best attacking 10 in terms of running, passing and vision. Having a 10 like that gives a team a different attacking dimension. Is it worth not having that to have a 10 who can kick?

If Madigan proves himself in the Trin-Duc class then Ireland should play him. Stick McFadden on the wing or hope kickers come through in other positions ie Luke McGrath.

I wouldn't like to see someone like McFadden brought in ahead of better players just because, he can kick. Anyway, if all this happened we would still have at least one of Kearney or Murray on the field to take over kicking duties.

tolosenc

Cpt_Blackbeard wrote: »

I wouldn't like to see someone like McFadden brought in ahead of better players just because, he can kick.

So not like Ronan O'Gara at all? :P

It's a good point, but generally we need the provinces to be taking players that can kick and keeping them at it in training. We need to be in a situation where there is a second or even third choice kicker on the field at all times.

The likes of Kearney, McFadden, McGrath, Madigan, Sexton, Keatley, Murray, Jones(? - I know there's another young Munster back who has taken the odd kick, think it might be jones but not sure) plus Ulster and Connacht contributions should be taking up at least 3 places on any 1st choice Ireland XV come the next World Cup.

Takeabath

Ok someone answer me this, what is the point in having O'gara second choice? We saw against wales that his style of play is no longer effective and he's 34!! Surely it's time to blood a promising player and give him a couple of 10minute appearances off the bench? Also what has O'gara done to justify his inclusion over madigan? He's been really poor and two drop goals don't change that. He's there on reputation alone and madigan is playing better and is 12 years younger! He may not be as good at game management as O'gara but he is infinitely better at tackling and attacking! O'gara has had over a decade to improve his tackling and become a threat in attack and has never improved in either. Let's give a young guy a chance, a player who would be hungry to play and not contemplate quitting the national team because he wasn't picked for a big game. Its time for new faces. Madigan is playing better than Murray was when he got ahead of redden, boss and o'leary as a starter in a world cup so why is it so insane to place madigan ahead of O'gara in a 6 nations and as second choice?

ch2008

Just throwing it out there...

10 Madigan
11 Fitzgerald
12 Sexton
13 O'Malley
14 McFadden
15 Kearney

padser

ch2008 wrote: »

Just throwing it out there...

10 Madigan
11 Fitzgerald
12 Sexton
13 O'Malley
14 McFadden
15 Kearney

I assume this is a post BOD / Darcy world?

I think such a world might also include D Kearney, Carr, Conway

Lustrum

ch2008 wrote: »

Just throwing it out there...

10 Madigan
11 Fitzgerald
12 Sexton
13 O'Malley
14 McFadden
15 Kearney

Why would you move the best 10 in Europe out to 12 just to fit in another guy at 10 who isn't as good? If Madigan wants the 10 jersey from Sexton he should have to earn it through performance, just as Jonny did from ROG.

The talk of him as a 9 is very interesting and somthing I'd love to see. Although Leinster have 2 very capable 9s already, it could be worth trying just to see what he brings to the position that an out and out 9 doesn't - it could certainly put the opposition on their toes!

Tox56

Lustrum wrote: »

Why would you move the best 10 in Europe out to 12 just to fit in another guy at 10 who isn't as good? If Madigan wants the 10 jersey from Sexton he should have to earn it through performance, just as Jonny did from ROG.

The talk of him as a 9 is very interesting and somthing I'd love to see. Although Leinster have 2 very capable 9s already, it could be worth trying just to see what he brings to the position that an out and out 9 doesn't - it could certainly put the opposition on their toes!

He has a good pass, but as you say you really have to see what he can do there. He isn't a natural 9 and although he has naturally good vision, I doubt he will just be able to pick up how to be a top class 9.

I still think his pace, vision, pass and eye for a gap would be very useful in the centres.

ch2008

Lustrum wrote: »

Why would you move the best 10 in Europe out to 12 just to fit in another guy at 10 who isn't as good? If Madigan wants the 10 jersey from Sexton he should have to earn it through performance, just as Jonny did from ROG.

The talk of him as a 9 is very interesting and somthing I'd love to see. Although Leinster have 2 very capable 9s already, it could be worth trying just to see what he brings to the position that an out and out 9 doesn't - it could certainly put the opposition on their toes!

Who said anything about Leinster? :eek:

irishbucsfan

Id much prefer Madigan at 12 to Sexton

CatFromHue

Takeabath wrote: »

what is the point in having O'gara second choice?

He may not be as good at game management as O'gara

You answered your own question there.

Takeabath

CatFromHue wrote: »

Takeabath wrote: »

what is the point in having O'gara second choice?

He may not be as good at game management as O'gara

You answered your own question there.

No because I said that madigan is better at attacking and defending. It seems all O'gara can do is kick to the corners and the game has moved on. Madigan is young, on a try scoring streak and already is showing more than O'gara ever has in attack and defence albeit in the Rabo. Game management comes with experience so why not develop him? O'gara won't be around for much longer so why not have madigan benching for sexton? There's no point in giving rog 10minutes when he'll be gone soon but that time could be invaluable for madigan

Benny Cake

Takeabath wrote: »

No because I said that madigan is better at attacking and defending. It seems all O'gara can do is kick to the corners and the game has moved on. Madigan is young, on a try scoring streak and already is showing more than O'gara ever has in attack and defence albeit in the Rabo. Game management comes with experience so why not develop him? O'gara won't be around for much longer so why not have madigan benching for sexton? There's no point in giving rog 10minutes when he'll be gone soon but that time could be invaluable for madigan

With ten mins to go and a six nations on the line would you honestly want Madigan coming on to close it out?

Rodge still has an important role to play with Ireland, by all means Madigan should be brought into the fold and be given exposure to the international scene but I for one wouldn't have him on the bench just yet...

wixfjord

Takeabath wrote: »

No because I said that madigan is better at attacking and defending. It seems all O'gara can do is kick to the corners and the game has moved on. Madigan is young, on a try scoring streak and already is showing more than O'gara ever has in attack and defence albeit in the Rabo. Game management comes with experience so why not develop him? O'gara won't be around for much longer so why not have madigan benching for sexton? There's no point in giving rog 10minutes when he'll be gone soon but that time could be invaluable for madigan

There's certainly some element of logic to that argument, but it will never happen with the value we put on the 6N, and with Kidney in charge.

Can we all not just agree that Madigan is not near an international fly half yet, but has progressed very well, and also that his lack of kicking is a non issue, and hope that he progresses as a young 10.

tolosenc

wixfjord wrote: »

Can we all not just agree that Madigan is not near an international fly half yet, but has progressed very well, and also that his lack of kicking is a non issue, and hope that he progresses as a young 10.

Bingo.

But he should rightly be considered as Ireland's 3rd choice. If he can maintain this level of progression for a couple more years he could be as good as Trinh-Duc.

phog

Takeabath wrote: »

Game management comes with experience so why not develop him? O'gara won't be around for much longer so why not have madigan benching for sexton? There's no point in giving rog 10minutes when he'll be gone soon but that time could be invaluable for madigan

Let him get H/Cup gametime with Leinster first, there's a huge step up from Pro12 to International.

How many H/C starts has Madigan?

vinny chase

Lustrum wrote: »

Why would you move the best 10 in Europe out to 12 just to fit in another guy at 10 who isn't as good? If Madigan wants the 10 jersey from Sexton he should have to earn it through performance, just as Jonny did from ROG.

The talk of him as a 9 is very interesting and somthing I'd love to see. Although Leinster have 2 very capable 9s already, it could be worth trying just to see what he brings to the position that an out and out 9 doesn't - it could certainly put the opposition on their toes!

Once again, people are talking about switching the positions of a player from a position where we're not exactly overstacked with talent. Ridiculous stuff.

Also, totally underestimating the difficulties associated with playing the nine position.

vinny chase

It's a difficult thing to assess who exactly is Ireland's third choice no. 10 between the three Ians, because imo, none of the three of them are ready for international rugby.

It's questionable if Humphreys will ever get there, because his defensive frailties are huge, and he has a tendency to be flaky at important junctures.

Between the other two, I think Madigan has demonstrated himself this season to have more potential and ability than Keatley, but I don't think either of them have yet shown enough to justify international selection.

Would love to see Madigan's continued development though, as I think he has huge talent.

tolosenc

phog wrote: »

Let him get H/Cup gametime with Leinster first, there's a huge step up from Pro12 to International.

How many H/C starts has Madigan?

0, if memory serves.

But in fairness, the poster was right about there being little point in having ROG polishing the bench for the next year or two. Might as well be one of Madigan or Keatley.

But again, how many HC starts had Murray going into the RWC? So it's no real rationale for not selecting Madigan.

vinny chase wrote: »

Also, totally underestimating the difficulties associated with playing the nine position.

Well, when I suggested it, I just said he looks like he has the intelligence for the position.

CatFromHue

vinny chase wrote: »

It's a difficult thing to assess who exactly is Ireland's third choice no. 10 between the three Ians, because imo, none of the three of them are ready for international rugby.

It's questionable if Humphreys will ever get there, because his defensive frailties are huge, and he has a tendency to be flaky at important junctures.

Between the other two, I think Madigan has demonstrated himself this season to have more potential and ability than Keatley, but I don't think either of them have yet shown enough to justify international selection.

Would love to see Madigan's continued development though, as I think he has huge talent.

Paddy Wallace was our third choice out half at the RWC. In the first warm up game against the Scots there was no out half cover on the bench just Sexton at 10 and Wallace at 12. He also started, and played pretty well in my opinion, in the warm up game against Connacht at out half.

Ian Humphreys started both of the A games last season so it's safe to assume he was fourth choice out half last season.

This season Wallace will have played little rugby come 6 Nations whereas all the Ian's will have played a fair bit. Wallace may not make the 6 Nations squad as he may only have a game or two played when the squad is picked.

We'll find out in a few weeks who is rated in what position.

If all were fit my mid field would be Sexton, Wallace, and Spence. I'd also start Madigan in the A game.

vinny chase

CatFromHue wrote: »

Paddy Wallace was our third choice out half at the RWC. In the first warm up game against the Scots there was no out half cover on the bench just Sexton at 10 and Wallace at 12. He also started, and played pretty well in my opinion, in the warm up game against Connacht at out half.

Ian Humphreys started both of the A games last season so it's safe to assume he was fourth choice out half last season.

This season Wallace will have played little rugby come 6 Nations whereas all the Ian's will have played a fair bit. Wallace may not make the 6 Nations squad as he may only have a game or two played when the squad is picked.

We'll find out in a few weeks who is rated in what position.

If all were fit my mid field would be Sexton, Wallace, and Spence. I'd also start Madigan in the A game.

Yeah, that's true, but to be honest, I was hoping we'd left the idea of Paddy Wallace as a potential 10 behind us at this point.

CatFromHue

vinny chase wrote: »

Yeah, that's true, but to be honest, I was hoping we'd left the idea of Paddy Wallace as a potential 10 behind us at this point.

Well if none of the Ian's are ready for it yet, and if Sexton and ROG are first and second choice, it kind of leaves Wallace as the default third choice.

He is injured at the moment though, but I don't think we'll have three out halves in the 6 Nations squad anyway.

phog

tolosenc wrote: »

0, if memory serves.

But in fairness, the poster was right about there being little point in having ROG polishing the bench for the next year or two. Might as well be one of Madigan or Keatley.




Well, when I suggested it, I just said he looks like he has the intelligence for the position.

But the OP wants him playing in this 6Ns, most other posters seem myslef included want him to get more gametime with Leinster and get his kicking in order then have him compete for a the Irish OH jersey.

But again, how many HC starts had Murray going into the RWC? So it's no real rationale for not selecting Madigan.

You're not compring like for like, Murry never needed another player on the field to do some of the what is classed as the SH duty whereas it looks like Madigan does need a kicker and as I've suggested before should that kicker go down injured then Irelan might need to make 2 subs at the same time. I just think it's too early for him rather than he wont make it.

myflipflops

Does he have the potential to play 12? Great pass, great break, some pace, great centre of gravity. I have been away since he came on the scene properly so cannot talk about his defending but is he that much smaller than Darcy?

Regarding the kicking from gournd, if he is to develop that side of his game (and maybe they don't really see the need) then he needs to be kicking regularly in matches.

I always find it entertaining when people worry about our outhalf options behind Sexton and O'Gara. Is there a country in the world who would not struggle if they lost 2 outhalves of that calibre??

Podge_irl

I'm curious as to what would have become of Larkham had he been Irish...

It's probably too late for the likes of Kearney but a serious change in attitude towards kicking is needed. McFadden should be held up as an example to young backs.

The reality of the current situation is that Madigan going to have to show some kicking ability. I imagine a Wolfhounds cap beckons and he will have to kick in that.

Brendan97

Takeabath wrote: »

No because I said that madigan is better at attacking and defending. It seems all O'gara can do is kick to the corners and the game has moved on. Madigan is young, on a try scoring streak and already is showing more than O'gara ever has in attack and defence albeit in the Rabo. Game management comes with experience so why not develop him? O'gara won't be around for much longer so why not have madigan benching for sexton? There's no point in giving rog 10minutes when he'll be gone soon but that time could be invaluable for madigan

But what i notice about o'gara is that sometimes a change in style (sexton=passing+running & o'gara= kicking) can really benefit the team.
Bringing madigan on for sexton means keeping roughly the same style and not replacing a style that against team 'X' doesn't work would be playing into the other team's hands.
do you remember the game against italy last season where ROG saved us, do you remember the grand slam against wales he scored the drop-goal, i could go on.
having 2 different styles of out-half benefits the team greatly and they can both learn of one another (sexton's tactical kicking has improve because of ROG)
ROG plays better of the bench because he gets to work out the other team and know where they are weakest where can he kick the ball to catch them out, take italy for example they bring there line up very high which leaves oceans of space to kick into, taking a step back to look at the game helps him be more effective.
madigan would do roughly the same as sexton, don't get me wrong though madigan is a good player and its exciting to see how he will do in the future.

tolosenc

Brendan97 wrote: »

But what i notice about o'gara is that sometimes a change in style (sexton=passing+running & o'gara= kicking) can really benefit the team.
Bringing madigan on for sexton means keeping roughly the same style and not replacing a style that against team 'X' doesn't work would be playing into the other team's hands.
do you remember the game against italy last season where ROG saved us, do you remember the grand slam against wales he scored the drop-goal, i could go on.
having 2 different styles of out-half benefits the team greatly and they can both learn of one another (sexton's tactical kicking has improve because of ROG)
ROG plays better of the bench because he gets to work out the other team and know where they are weakest where can he kick the ball to catch them out, take italy for example they bring there line up very high which leaves oceans of space to kick into, taking a step back to look at the game helps him be more effective.
madigan would do roughly the same as sexton.

Just no. Sexton can do the corner kicking that O'Gara does 90% as well as ROG. He is substantially better than O'Gara when it comes to running from deep. Sexton is more like ROG than Madigan is like Sexton.

Also, the period O'Gara was on in Rome, we lost that by 2 points. So he didn't save us.

finatron

i cant believe this thread is 4 pages long

danthefan

As far as I see it he can't be picked unless there is someone in the team already who kicks, or he gets kicking himself. You don't go around changing the team, particularly when you have Sexton there already, to accommodate him.