The Ian Madigan Thread

Takeabath

Seeing as talk of madigan is derailing so many topics I thought that he deserves his own thread. Top try scorer in the Rabo Direct after limited game time and only 22 years old. Probably has the best pass and eye for a gap of any outhalf in Ireland. I believe he should be second choice for Ireland. What does everyone think?

CatFromHue

He's not ready for International rugby and so should not be second choice for Ireland.

durkadurka

Give him a year it two. Rog doesn't seem to be 'done' yet.

PhatPiggins

Would like to see more from him in terms of game managment. Have never seen him take place kicks for a whole match. Is he any good?

bossa_nova

He's a great player with ball in ahnd a going forward but this kicking game is letting him down, and with Ireland we never seem to break the trend of the outhalf taking place kicks he's been against moderate teams but hasnt really been challangeed at top level. He is a good ways aways from being selected for ireland

its_phil

This doesn't need it's own thread, the Ireland Team Talk and Leinster Team Talk threads are set up for this kind of discussion

PhatPiggins

bossa_nova wrote: »

He's a great player with ball in ahnd a going forward but this kicking game is letting him down, and with Ireland we never seem to break the trend of the outhalf taking place kicks he's been against moderate teams but hasnt really been challangeed at top level. He is a good ways aways from being selected for ireland

I hate to pigeonhole a guy but he looks like a sevens player to me. If he was bigger he'd make a great 12 as his distribution is top notch.

I really hope he kicks on because Ireland are seriously lacking 10's after the current two incumbents

monkey90

Its the start of a new 4-year cycle (albeit the IRFU don't necessarily look at it that way), and Madigan will most likely be Ireland's number 2 outhalf come the 2015 World Cup.
There's no point giving him his Ireland debut against somebody like Fiji in the Autumn Internationals in 2013 and then expecting him to produce the goods under the high-pressure scenario of a World Cup quarter-final against France/South Africa/Australia etc. he might be thrown into if Sexton got injured.
The time for him to begin his international career is now, how about we give him 20 minutes at home to Italy and Scotland, ease him in slowly and not just chuck him into the firing line all of a sudden when O'Gara calls it a day.

padser

Sometimes there are just very very obvious answers to questions (or in this case non questions)

1) Madigan is not the second best outhalf in Ireland (Sexton and ROG are well ahead of the competition. So irelands immediate needs are not best served by having him there.

2) Madigan is not at the stage of development where test rugby would benefit him (running tough Rabo Games, playing HEC are the next step for him). So Irelands medium terms needs and Madigans own development needs are not best served by it either.


It's a no brainer for me.

CIARAN_BOYLE

I hope to see him get a Wolfhounds cap this 6 nations, and if continues in good form make his test debut against whichever small team we get in a test match this autumn (fiji/samoa/tonga).

Tox56

What are the possibilities of moving him to another position? He is listed on Leinster as both Fly Half and Fullback, but with his pass and vision, maybe the centre would be a good place for him.

He could be a McFadden in terms of offering another kicking option to the main kicker, without needing to be the primary kicker.

phog

Takeabath wrote: »

Seeing as talk of madigan is derailing so many topics I thought that he deserves his own thread. Top try scorer in the Rabo Direct after limited game time and only 22 years old. Probably has the best pass and eye for a gap of any outhalf in Ireland. I believe he should be second choice for Ireland. What does everyone think?

That's harsh on Sexton

almighty1

Have yet to see his place and OOH kicking. Against Ulster he passed everything and never seemed to play for territory.

Looks like he has all the attributes for a scrum-half imo. Good pass, dynamic in the loose and quick thinker.

zxcvbnm12

took the words outta my mouth phog!!

Takeabath

Well I think madigan is ahead of O'gara on current form so O'gara would be third choice. Ogaras has been really poor and his tackling has gotten worse. Madigan and sexton far outperforming him

wixfjord

Takeabath wrote: »

Well I think madigan is ahead of O'gara on current form so O'gara would be third choice. Ogaras has been really poor and his tackling has gotten worse. Madigan and sexton far outperforming him

Yikes!
Are you Mrs Madigan by any chance?

thomond2006

Takeabath wrote: »

Well I think madigan is ahead of O'gara on current form so O'gara would be third choice. Ogaras has been really poor and his tackling has gotten worse. Madigan and sexton far outperforming him

Fair play for starting a Madigan vs ROG debate. Sexton vs ROG was getting old.

profitius

I'd like to see him in the Ireland squad but the problem for Kidney will be giving him games. You have 2 giant egos there already fighting it out and they wouldn't want to see anyone else join in. I don't think Kidney will consider him for another season at least.

The 2015 world cup is a long way off. You have Paddy Jackson also who looks to have a bit of class. Connacht fans rate Jack Carty highly. JJ Hanrahan also has a very good pass and break and he could be the best of the lot. Time will tell. There'll be some nice selection headaches for Kidney (he'll still be there) in 2015.

It wasn't too long ago when Ireland had to rely on ROG so the future is looking good in the number 10 position. There are centers coming through also so all we need now are more props to emerge.

clsmooth

profitius wrote: »

I'd like to see him in the Ireland squad but the problem for Kidney will be giving him games. You have 2 giant egos there already fighting it out and they wouldn't want to see anyone else join in. I don't think Kidney will consider him for another season at least.

The 2015 world cup is a long way off. You have Paddy Jackson also who looks to have a bit of class. Connacht fans rate Jack Carty highly. JJ Hanrahan also has a very good pass and break and he could be the best of the lot. Time will tell. There'll be some nice selection headaches for Kidney (he'll still be there) in 2015.

It wasn't too long ago when Ireland had to rely on ROG so the future is looking good in the number 10 position. There are centers coming through also so all we need now are more props to emerge.

Kidney will hopefully not be there in 2015! Nothing personal against him but his style of play is seriously outdated. Conor O'Shea please!

phog

From the little I've read on Madigan on this forum it seems that he doesn't kick for goal so that could mean making two substitutions if the "kicker" is being subbed. With that in mind I really dont see him getting an international cap anytime soon if that's the case.

clsmooth

Nah he's no where near ready to challenge Sexton and ROG but has been the 3rd best out half this year and should be in around the squad learning from ROG (as he learns from Sexton at Leinster!)

wixfjord

phog wrote: »

From the little I've read on Madigan on this forum it seems that he doesn't kick for goal so that could mean making two substitutions if the "kicker" is being subbed. With that in mind I really dont see him getting an international cap anytime soon if that's the case.

Doesn't kick for goal yet.
Patience my friend, the next great Irish 10 is only getting started...

phog

wixfjord wrote: »

Doesn't kick for goal yet.
Patience my friend, the next great Irish 10 is only getting started...

You may need to address this post to the OP.

totallegend

It's hilarious how the goal-kicking issue comes up probably every third or fourth post but there are still lads who seem totally ignorant of what the situation is...

Listen, Madigan is a very young player, bags of talent and from what little we've seen this season, his goal-kicking is of decent standard.

My theory is that Schmidt gives the kicks to McFadden or Nacewa because he knows that were he to have a bad day and miss a couple of kicks, then the likes of the guys on here would be writing him off as a poor player, a bottler etc. Why not let him develop as a player first then we'll worry about the goal-kicking, which, in any rugby country which has gone beyond the 1980s rugby mentality, would be regarded as less important than his ability to run a backline, threaten defences and defend properly?

We have a guy here with a wicked step, an eye for a gap, tackles well and passes like a scrum-half off both sides, and all people can focus on is his goal-kicking. It's ridiculous and it's this sort of mentality is the reason the Irish team hasn't progresssed (because the coach has the same outlook).

Edit: BTW, any talk of Ireland call-up for Madigan is waaaay too premature at this stage, but I'd be hoping for a Wolfhounds selection. The alternatives are Humphreys (never been looked at for the senior team, never will at this stage so the value of picking him for Wolfhounds is limited) and Keatley (way behind Madigan despite being two years older), unless Paddy Jackson can get a run of games, so I'd imagine he'll be in pole position for the Wolfhounds.

irishbucsfan

Would definitely like to see more game management from him. OGara and Sexton are a class above in that regard.

I think he could be superb though.

Ciaran-Irl

its_phil wrote: »

This doesn't need it's own thread, the Ireland Team Talk and Leinster Team Talk threads are set up for this kind of discussion

I hate those threads. I rarely bother coming on here because they've made it impossible to only read and post about topics you are interested in. They're unmanageably big, and it isn't worth the effort to sift through them. I never look at them.

I mean, why have any threads at all? Why not just have one massive thread called "Rugby"?

Tox56

totallegend wrote: »

It's hilarious how the goal-kicking issue comes up probably every third or fourth post but there are still lads who seem totally ignorant of what the situation is...

Listen, Madigan is a very young player, bags of talent and from what little we've seen this season, his goal-kicking is of decent standard.

My theory is that Schmidt gives the kicks to McFadden or Nacewa because he knows that were he to have a bad day and miss a couple of kicks, then the likes of the guys on here would be writing him off as a poor player, a bottler etc. Why not let him develop as a player first then we'll worry about the goal-kicking, which, in any rugby country which has gone beyond the 1980s rugby mentality, would be regarded as less important than his ability to run a backline, threaten defences and defend properly?

We have a guy here with a wicked step, an eye for a gap, tackles well and passes like a scrum-half off both sides, and all people can focus on is his goal-kicking. It's ridiculous and it's this sort of mentality is the reason the Irish team hasn't progresssed (because the coach has the same outlook).

I can't speak for everyone, and don't know for sure if I was one you are addressing, but I was one talking about his kicking and the problems it could cause, and I think you have misunderstood.

I personally have huge hopes for him obviously, based on what he has shown. I appreciate that as he has never really kicked, we can't pass judgement on it. From what I have heard it is very good, and so I can accept that.

All my point was, people were suggesting a Non-Kicking 10. I feel this won't work, due to the liability it would cause. I am not saying his kicking his bad, just that he will need to start doing it regularly if he wants to progress with Ireland (maybe not Leinster, due to having so many kickers).

I do know there is time do this, and I am sure they will, but I didn't agree with the idea of a Non-Kicking 10 as some were suggesting because other countries have it.

I just hope they start soon giving him the chance to take his own kicks, and stop protecting him, because it is something (I feel) needs to be done.

phog

totallegend wrote: »

It's hilarious how the goal-kicking issue comes up probably every third or fourth post but there are still lads who seem totally ignorant of what the situation is...

Listen, Madigan is a very young player, bags of talent and from what little we've seen this season, his goal-kicking is of decent standard.

My theory is that Schmidt gives the kicks to McFadden or Nacewa because he knows that were he to have a bad day and miss a couple of kicks, then the likes of the guys on here would be writing him off as a poor player, a bottler etc. Why not let him develop as a player first then we'll worry about the goal-kicking, which, in any rugby country which has gone beyond the 1980s rugby mentality, would be regarded as less important than his ability to run a backline, threaten defences and defend properly?

We have a guy here with a wicked step, an eye for a gap, tackles well and passes like a scrum-half off both sides, and all people can focus on is his goal-kicking. It's ridiculous and it's this sort of mentality is the reason the Irish team hasn't progresssed (because the coach has the same outlook).

The only reason I mention his goal kicking is that when on international duty he may not have the comfort of relying on someone else to kick. I'm in no way knocking the guy, how could I? He's a huge prospect at OH but the OP suggesting that he should be 2nd choice is just so far off the mark that it beggars beleif. You own post actually is suggesting that his confidence may need minding, if that is the case then surely it's way too early to be dipping him into the Irish sqaud.

BTW, I think you may need to give players and coaches a bit more credit than they to be worried about what's written here about players.

irishbucsfan

No point in having him kicking at the moment. Having Nacewa or McFadden do it is 100% the right way to go.

Hagz

i think most people can agree that if we were seriously talking about him playing for Ireland now, then his tee kicking is an issue given the fact that the only established kicker who would be on the XV would be Kearney.

But I think most people can agree that he wont play for Ireland this year, and so therefore who cares. Maybe by the time he's ready to make that step up, he will have progressed into a wonderful goal kicker, or another goal kicker will be in the XV.

As of now though, it's a non issue.

profitius

Theres alot to be said for selecting a different type of 10. Look at Trin-Duc. He doesn't kick for France. He doesn't need to because their scrumhalfs take the kicks. Would France be better with kicking 10 there? No because Trin-Duc is easily their best attacking 10 in terms of running, passing and vision. Having a 10 like that gives a team a different attacking dimension. Is it worth not having that to have a 10 who can kick?

If Madigan proves himself in the Trin-Duc class then Ireland should play him. Stick McFadden on the wing or hope kickers come through in other positions ie Luke McGrath.

irishbucsfan

Don't think leaving out Fitzgerald or Bowe for McFadden would be worth it unless we were playing a minnow, but I'm hoping Luke McGraths development will suit Madigan.

Also, Madigan is a good kicker anyway.

phog

profitius wrote: »

Theres alot to be said for selecting a different type of 10. Look at Trin-Duc. He doesn't kick for France. He doesn't need to because their scrumhalfs take the kicks. Would France be better with kicking 10 there? No because Trin-Duc is easily their best attacking 10 in terms of running, passing and vision. Having a 10 like that gives a team a different attacking dimension. Is it worth not having that to have a 10 who can kick?

If Madigan proves himself in the Trin-Duc class then Ireland should play him. Stick McFadden on the wing or hope kickers come through in other positions ie Luke McGrath.

Why fix what's not broken? Your'e almost suggesting a couple of personnel changes to facilitate a guy. Wait until he's ready or needed and then see what's required. If we're stuck for an OH and Madigan fits the bill and he still doesn't kick then get another player on the field that can kick for him. I dont see the need to do that now.

Cpt_Blackbeard

profitius wrote: »

Theres alot to be said for selecting a different type of 10. Look at Trin-Duc. He doesn't kick for France. He doesn't need to because their scrumhalfs take the kicks. Would France be better with kicking 10 there? No because Trin-Duc is easily their best attacking 10 in terms of running, passing and vision. Having a 10 like that gives a team a different attacking dimension. Is it worth not having that to have a 10 who can kick?

If Madigan proves himself in the Trin-Duc class then Ireland should play him. Stick McFadden on the wing or hope kickers come through in other positions ie Luke McGrath.

I wouldn't like to see someone like McFadden brought in ahead of better players just because, he can kick. Anyway, if all this happened we would still have at least one of Kearney or Murray on the field to take over kicking duties.

tolosenc

Cpt_Blackbeard wrote: »

I wouldn't like to see someone like McFadden brought in ahead of better players just because, he can kick.

So not like Ronan O'Gara at all? :P

It's a good point, but generally we need the provinces to be taking players that can kick and keeping them at it in training. We need to be in a situation where there is a second or even third choice kicker on the field at all times.

The likes of Kearney, McFadden, McGrath, Madigan, Sexton, Keatley, Murray, Jones(? - I know there's another young Munster back who has taken the odd kick, think it might be jones but not sure) plus Ulster and Connacht contributions should be taking up at least 3 places on any 1st choice Ireland XV come the next World Cup.

Takeabath

Ok someone answer me this, what is the point in having O'gara second choice? We saw against wales that his style of play is no longer effective and he's 34!! Surely it's time to blood a promising player and give him a couple of 10minute appearances off the bench? Also what has O'gara done to justify his inclusion over madigan? He's been really poor and two drop goals don't change that. He's there on reputation alone and madigan is playing better and is 12 years younger! He may not be as good at game management as O'gara but he is infinitely better at tackling and attacking! O'gara has had over a decade to improve his tackling and become a threat in attack and has never improved in either. Let's give a young guy a chance, a player who would be hungry to play and not contemplate quitting the national team because he wasn't picked for a big game. Its time for new faces. Madigan is playing better than Murray was when he got ahead of redden, boss and o'leary as a starter in a world cup so why is it so insane to place madigan ahead of O'gara in a 6 nations and as second choice?

ch2008

Just throwing it out there...

10 Madigan
11 Fitzgerald
12 Sexton
13 O'Malley
14 McFadden
15 Kearney

padser

ch2008 wrote: »

Just throwing it out there...

10 Madigan
11 Fitzgerald
12 Sexton
13 O'Malley
14 McFadden
15 Kearney

I assume this is a post BOD / Darcy world?

I think such a world might also include D Kearney, Carr, Conway

Lustrum

ch2008 wrote: »

Just throwing it out there...

10 Madigan
11 Fitzgerald
12 Sexton
13 O'Malley
14 McFadden
15 Kearney

Why would you move the best 10 in Europe out to 12 just to fit in another guy at 10 who isn't as good? If Madigan wants the 10 jersey from Sexton he should have to earn it through performance, just as Jonny did from ROG.

The talk of him as a 9 is very interesting and somthing I'd love to see. Although Leinster have 2 very capable 9s already, it could be worth trying just to see what he brings to the position that an out and out 9 doesn't - it could certainly put the opposition on their toes!

Tox56

Lustrum wrote: »

Why would you move the best 10 in Europe out to 12 just to fit in another guy at 10 who isn't as good? If Madigan wants the 10 jersey from Sexton he should have to earn it through performance, just as Jonny did from ROG.

The talk of him as a 9 is very interesting and somthing I'd love to see. Although Leinster have 2 very capable 9s already, it could be worth trying just to see what he brings to the position that an out and out 9 doesn't - it could certainly put the opposition on their toes!

He has a good pass, but as you say you really have to see what he can do there. He isn't a natural 9 and although he has naturally good vision, I doubt he will just be able to pick up how to be a top class 9.

I still think his pace, vision, pass and eye for a gap would be very useful in the centres.

ch2008

Lustrum wrote: »

Why would you move the best 10 in Europe out to 12 just to fit in another guy at 10 who isn't as good? If Madigan wants the 10 jersey from Sexton he should have to earn it through performance, just as Jonny did from ROG.

The talk of him as a 9 is very interesting and somthing I'd love to see. Although Leinster have 2 very capable 9s already, it could be worth trying just to see what he brings to the position that an out and out 9 doesn't - it could certainly put the opposition on their toes!

Who said anything about Leinster? :eek:

irishbucsfan

Id much prefer Madigan at 12 to Sexton

CatFromHue

Takeabath wrote: »

what is the point in having O'gara second choice?

He may not be as good at game management as O'gara

You answered your own question there.

Takeabath

CatFromHue wrote: »

Takeabath wrote: »

what is the point in having O'gara second choice?

He may not be as good at game management as O'gara

You answered your own question there.

No because I said that madigan is better at attacking and defending. It seems all O'gara can do is kick to the corners and the game has moved on. Madigan is young, on a try scoring streak and already is showing more than O'gara ever has in attack and defence albeit in the Rabo. Game management comes with experience so why not develop him? O'gara won't be around for much longer so why not have madigan benching for sexton? There's no point in giving rog 10minutes when he'll be gone soon but that time could be invaluable for madigan

Benny Cake

Takeabath wrote: »

No because I said that madigan is better at attacking and defending. It seems all O'gara can do is kick to the corners and the game has moved on. Madigan is young, on a try scoring streak and already is showing more than O'gara ever has in attack and defence albeit in the Rabo. Game management comes with experience so why not develop him? O'gara won't be around for much longer so why not have madigan benching for sexton? There's no point in giving rog 10minutes when he'll be gone soon but that time could be invaluable for madigan

With ten mins to go and a six nations on the line would you honestly want Madigan coming on to close it out?

Rodge still has an important role to play with Ireland, by all means Madigan should be brought into the fold and be given exposure to the international scene but I for one wouldn't have him on the bench just yet...

wixfjord

Takeabath wrote: »

No because I said that madigan is better at attacking and defending. It seems all O'gara can do is kick to the corners and the game has moved on. Madigan is young, on a try scoring streak and already is showing more than O'gara ever has in attack and defence albeit in the Rabo. Game management comes with experience so why not develop him? O'gara won't be around for much longer so why not have madigan benching for sexton? There's no point in giving rog 10minutes when he'll be gone soon but that time could be invaluable for madigan

There's certainly some element of logic to that argument, but it will never happen with the value we put on the 6N, and with Kidney in charge.

Can we all not just agree that Madigan is not near an international fly half yet, but has progressed very well, and also that his lack of kicking is a non issue, and hope that he progresses as a young 10.

tolosenc

wixfjord wrote: »

Can we all not just agree that Madigan is not near an international fly half yet, but has progressed very well, and also that his lack of kicking is a non issue, and hope that he progresses as a young 10.

Bingo.

But he should rightly be considered as Ireland's 3rd choice. If he can maintain this level of progression for a couple more years he could be as good as Trinh-Duc.

phog

Takeabath wrote: »

Game management comes with experience so why not develop him? O'gara won't be around for much longer so why not have madigan benching for sexton? There's no point in giving rog 10minutes when he'll be gone soon but that time could be invaluable for madigan

Let him get H/Cup gametime with Leinster first, there's a huge step up from Pro12 to International.

How many H/C starts has Madigan?

vinny chase

Lustrum wrote: »

Why would you move the best 10 in Europe out to 12 just to fit in another guy at 10 who isn't as good? If Madigan wants the 10 jersey from Sexton he should have to earn it through performance, just as Jonny did from ROG.

The talk of him as a 9 is very interesting and somthing I'd love to see. Although Leinster have 2 very capable 9s already, it could be worth trying just to see what he brings to the position that an out and out 9 doesn't - it could certainly put the opposition on their toes!

Once again, people are talking about switching the positions of a player from a position where we're not exactly overstacked with talent. Ridiculous stuff.

Also, totally underestimating the difficulties associated with playing the nine position.

vinny chase

It's a difficult thing to assess who exactly is Ireland's third choice no. 10 between the three Ians, because imo, none of the three of them are ready for international rugby.

It's questionable if Humphreys will ever get there, because his defensive frailties are huge, and he has a tendency to be flaky at important junctures.

Between the other two, I think Madigan has demonstrated himself this season to have more potential and ability than Keatley, but I don't think either of them have yet shown enough to justify international selection.

Would love to see Madigan's continued development though, as I think he has huge talent.

tolosenc

phog wrote: »

Let him get H/Cup gametime with Leinster first, there's a huge step up from Pro12 to International.

How many H/C starts has Madigan?

0, if memory serves.

But in fairness, the poster was right about there being little point in having ROG polishing the bench for the next year or two. Might as well be one of Madigan or Keatley.

But again, how many HC starts had Murray going into the RWC? So it's no real rationale for not selecting Madigan.

vinny chase wrote: »

Also, totally underestimating the difficulties associated with playing the nine position.

Well, when I suggested it, I just said he looks like he has the intelligence for the position.