NFL DRAFT 2012

HigginsJ

FreeOSCAR wrote: »

http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2012/04/03/claiborne-gives-birth-to-a-four-on-the-wonderlic/

I know it's only the Wonderlic and should be taken with a pinch of salt but a 4 is down right ridiculous.
It won't affect his draft spot but I'd put this down as a watch this space.

if true thats shocking stuff from Claiborne

mikemac1

Even if you randomly guessed every question you're bound to get more correct, it's multiple choice

I can only assume he wasn't bothered, sat back and didn't try
Bad attitude

DDC1990

HigginsJ wrote: »

if true thats shocking stuff from Claiborne

Hmm, I wonder how true that is.

Claibourne, while not very well spoken seems like a sensible and intelligent lad.

I know Football intelligence and Intelligence are two different things, but he reads the game better than most cornerbacks in the NFL already, and comes up with some great interceptions, from reading Quarterbacks.

A Wonderlich of 4 would indicate a moderate mental disability.

Syferus

It's this sort of nonchalance to any education that's not football-based that leads alot of ex-players down some very dark alleys. All people care about is how many touchdowns they can score, how many interceptions, plays, they can make and when they can't anymore they're thrown by the wayside with little to no real education or understanding of what to do with their lives after the floodlights switch off.

The schools, from middle school to college, should be deeply ashamed, as should the player's family for not guiding the player down a more balanced path. The player is only a product of his environment.

LuckyLloyd

mikemac1 wrote: »

Even if you randomly guessed every question you're bound to get more correct, it's multiple choice

I can only assume he wasn't bothered, sat back and didn't try
Bad attitude

Well no, you could run really bad.

LuckyLloyd

DDC1990 wrote: »

Hmm, I wonder how true that is.

Claibourne, while not very well spoken seems like a sensible and intelligent lad.

I know Football intelligence and Intelligence are two different things, but he reads the game better than most cornerbacks in the NFL already, and comes up with some great interceptions, from reading Quarterbacks.

A Wonderlich of 4 would indicate a moderate mental disability.

These IQ tests are culturally biased yo.

me-skywalker

Let me work this one out: so if he was to randomly guess he would get more correct, so by the fact he got a low score means he tried, which makes it even worse. Oh dear.

Let me use the opposite example, Rodgers scored 35 on the Wonderlic which we are all agreed is in the top top echelons on a comparative IQ test. Putting him in the 5% top bracket. Yet he was pretty standard against the Giants. What I mean is there is some relevance and there is no relevance attached to Wonderlic results.

David Beckahm touted as a male bimbo of base intelligence, yet on a pitch he has a magnificent footballing brain. Again what relevance? Little and a lot.

Isn't Britney Spears form Louisianna too? Again what relevance? Little and a lot, like some of the ridiculous hyperbole, linking a low score with "dark paths".

UCD AFC

Claiborne has a learning disability to do with reading according to this
http://www.sbnation.com/2012-nfl-draft/2012/4/3/2922913/morris-claiborne-wonderlic-learning-disability

JaMarcus Hustle

Wonderlic means absolutely nothing. The kid obviously knows his football - he played in a Les Miles defence for Christ's sake. Teams will put him in front of a blackboard and they'll know everything they need to know about his Football IQ. That's all that matters, not what time two trains travelling at X mph will meet if they both leave at the yadda yadda yadda.

frostie500

JaMarcus Hustle wrote: »

Wonderlic means absolutely nothing. The kid obviously knows his football - he played in a Les Miles defence for Christ's sake. Teams will put him in front of a blackboard and they'll know everything they need to know about his Football IQ. That's all that matters, not what time two trains travelling at X mph will meet if they both leave at the yadda yadda yadda.

Yeah I never get the importance that is placed on the wonderlic scores. Its such a non story every year as far as im concerned yet someone always does really bad and the press jumps on it.

Look at the likes of Dan Marino and Donavan McNabb, both scored something like 13 or 14 yet become one of the best QBs of all time and McNabb one of the best of his generation. Through the entire spectrum of results you have HoF players and very productive pros. Whether they have a high or low IQ has no reflection on their performance on the field...the wonderlic has about as much relevance to their football ability as the rest of the exercises at the combine....

Chucky the tree

Wonderlic isn't the be all and end all but I still think it's important. Obviously there will always be exceptions to the rule but for the most part if a QB scores badly on the wonderlic then there is less chance he'll make it. For LTs it seems to be very important as well, again there'll be some excellent ones who've done poorly but the vast majority but be very intelligent. For most other positions I wouldn't really care though.

frostie500

Chucky the tree wrote: »

Wonderlic isn't the be all and end all but I still think it's important. Obviously there will always be exceptions to the rule but for the most part if a QB scores badly on the wonderlic then there is less chance he'll make it. For LTs it seems to be very important as well, again there'll be some excellent ones who've done poorly but the vast majority but be very intelligent. For most other positions I wouldn't really care though.

I think even for QB its not that relevant. Here's a listhttp://www.nflstatanalysis.net/2011/03/qb-wonderlic-scores.html I found of QB scores.

Ryan Fitzpatrick was the highest result recorded on it by a QB having scored 48 and he's a functional QB in the NFL, possibly more but never an elite player. Greg McIlroy, Blaine Gabbert and Drew Heneon scored 43 and 42 and Gabbert has already shown all the signs of being a bust while Henson didnt amount to anything in the NFL. Brian Griese (39) and Charlie Frye never amounted to what it was hoped they would be. If the QB was a position where intellegence was so important surely these players would have achieved more than they have?

Eli Manning (39) speaks for himself on the back of another Superbowl, Aaron Rodgers (35) has been superb for Green Bay, Tom Brady and Steve Young both scored (33). Good scores and top tier talent on the field.

Yet scores of players around those numbers such as Alex Smith (40), Tony Romo (37) and Matt Ryan (32) still have to prove they can consistently be productive. Players such as Joey Harrington and JP Losman all scored similar to Ryan yet both are busts.

Andy Dalton, Brady Quinn, Rex Grossman, Chris Weinke, Marc Bulger, Troy Aikman and John Elway all scored 28 yet there isnt much corrolation between their intelligence and their on field success.

At the lower end of the scale McNabb, Jim Kelly, Randall Cuningham, Steve McNair, Terry Bradshaw and Dan Marino all scored 14 or 15-the same scores as the likes of Jim Sorgi, Seneca Wallace, David Garrard, John David Booty and Charlie Brown.

There is very little correlation between the scores in the test and the scores that these QBs were able to put up on the scoreboard. There is a huge difference between general, everyday intelligence and football intelligence. Reading what a defence is going to do is a very different skill than reading a question on a test

Chucky the tree

frostie500 wrote: »

I think even for QB its not that relevant. Here's a listhttp://www.nflstatanalysis.net/2011/03/qb-wonderlic-scores.html I found of QB scores.

Ryan Fitzpatrick was the highest result recorded on it by a QB having scored 48 and he's a functional QB in the NFL, possibly more but never an elite player. Greg McIlroy, Blaine Gabbert and Drew Heneon scored 43 and 42 and Gabbert has already shown all the signs of being a bust while Henson didnt amount to anything in the NFL. Brian Griese (39) and Charlie Frye never amounted to what it was hoped they would be. If the QB was a position where intellegence was so important surely these players would have achieved more than they have?

Eli Manning (39) speaks for himself on the back of another Superbowl, Aaron Rodgers (35) has been superb for Green Bay, Tom Brady and Steve Young both scored (33). Good scores and top tier talent on the field.

Yet scores of players around those numbers such as Alex Smith (40), Tony Romo (37) and Matt Ryan (32) still have to prove they can consistently be productive. Players such as Joey Harrington and JP Losman all scored similar to Ryan yet both are busts.

Andy Dalton, Brady Quinn, Rex Grossman, Chris Weinke, Marc Bulger, Troy Aikman and John Elway all scored 28 yet there isnt much corrolation between their intelligence and their on field success.

At the lower end of the scale McNabb, Jim Kelly, Randall Cuningham, Steve McNair, Terry Bradshaw and Dan Marino all scored 14 or 15-the same scores as the likes of Jim Sorgi, Seneca Wallace, David Garrard, John David Booty and Charlie Brown.

There is very little correlation between the scores in the test and the scores that these QBs were able to put up on the scoreboard. There is a huge difference between general, everyday intelligence and football intelligence. Reading what a defence is going to do is a very different skill than reading a question on a test

QB position doesn't depend soley on intelligence, that's why guys have scored well on the wonderlic and not been great QB. I never said that you'll be a better QB the more intelligent you are but I still think it's a useful tool to use. If I had two very similar QBs and one had a 15 on the wonderlic compared to a 35 I'd go with the guy with a 35.


P.S. While I'm hear the combine is very important for other positions as well.

frostie500

Chucky the tree wrote: »

QB position doesn't depend soley on intelligence, that's why guys have scored well on the wonderlic and not been great QB. I never said that you'll be a better QB the more intelligent you are but I still think it's a useful tool to use. If I had two very similar QBs and one had a 15 on the wonderlic compared to a 35 I'd go with the guy with a 35.


P.S. While I'm hear the combine is very important for other positions as well.

I know that you dont think its the "be all and end all" but the point I was making is that the wonderlic score is a pretty irrelevant way of judging any player. Their football intelligence and skill, which can be viewed and analysed from studying tape, and an interview to determine their personality etc. are far more important that their score on the wonderlic

JaMarcus Hustle

It's funny, Greg McElroy scored 43 and yet he still thought it was a good idea to go running to the media as soon as the Jets season finished. It ain't no measure of common sense, that's for sure.

Syferus

McEllory was asked his opinion, by a 'home' radio station in Birmingham, he gave it. He was shocked by the state of the locker room in NY, and for someone coming out of a ship run as tightly as Nick Saban's in Tuscaloosa he would know what a winning locker room looks like. It may not help him with said primadonna locker room, but it was the right thing to say. Good for him. The end.

People can say the Wonderlic doesn't matter, but that's one of the most ridiculous thing imaginable. A smarter person who studied hard is alot less likely to do stupid things or end up being arrested or worse. The Wonderlic is just a basic test and anyone who is on the lower end of the scale - and we're not even talking about Claiborne - really needs their background ran over with a fine-tooth comb or else all that talent that's attracting you to the player could end up wasted. In reality teams should be investigating their potential picks' acedmeic life from middle school upwards rather than bothering with a Wonderlic, which is a small sample and thus inherantly flawed, but all teams want to care about is how fast a player runs, how strong he is, how perceptive he is on the field.

And that's entirely divorced from the huge long term issues you get from coddling players coming through and not giving them any discernible skills that aren't football centred, which is what the true crux of the matter is.

The football is entirely secondary in this debate.

frostie500

Syferus wrote: »

People can say the Wonderlic doesn't matter, but that's one of the most ridiculous thing imaginable. A smarter person who studied hard is alot less likely to do stupid things or end up being arrested or worse. The Wonderlic is just a basic test and anyone who is on the lower end of the scale - and we're not even talking about Claiborne - really needs their background ran over with a fine-tooth comb or else all that talent that's attracting you to the player could end up wasted. In reality teams should be investigating their potential picks' acedmeic life from middle school upwards rather than bothering with a Wonderlic, which is a small sample and thus inherantly flawed, but all teams want to care about is how fast a player runs, how strong he is, how perceptive he is on the field.

And that's entirely divorced from the huge long term issues you get from coddling players coming through and not giving them any discernible skills that aren't football centred, which is what the true crux of the matter is.

The football is entirely secondary in this debate.

Why is it ridiculous to say that the wonderlic doesnt matter? I cant see how it is relevant whatsoever to a players ability to do their job. Their level of intelligence obviously impacts the rest of their lives and while there is likely to be a correlation between bad scores and, lets say, bad decisions/investments/etc, there is nothing to suggest that a poor score leads to poor performance on the field, or that a high score leads to good performances.

I dont see why you think only a low score would warrant an examination of their background. History has shown plenty of very intelligent people who go to jail, make a mistake, etc. The teams need to investigate everyones background and use their interviews to determine what they think of a player.

At the end of the day the league shows year after year that they dont care about the wonderlic scores because we see players with crap scores getting drafted high-just like we will this year with Claiborne.

Leslie91

Some spin doctor has obviously made a few bob selling the idea of the wonderlic to the NFL. I put no stock in it whatsoever.

Syferus

frostie500 wrote: »

Why is it ridiculous to say that the wonderlic doesnt matter? I cant see how it is relevant whatsoever to a players ability to do their job. Their level of intelligence obviously impacts the rest of their lives and while there is likely to be a correlation between bad scores and, lets say, bad decisions/investments/etc, there is nothing to suggest that a poor score leads to poor performance on the field, or that a high score leads to good performances.

I dont see why you think only a low score would warrant an examination of their background. History has shown plenty of very intelligent people who go to jail, make a mistake, etc. The teams need to investigate everyones background and use their interviews to determine what they think of a player.

At the end of the day the league shows year after year that they dont care about the wonderlic scores because we see players with crap scores getting drafted high-just like we will this year with Claiborne.

http://economics.uwo.ca/faculty/lochner/papers/educationandcrime.pdf

Enjoy. The correlation between poor education and crime rates and incarceration rates is clear and obvious.

frostie500

Syferus wrote: »

http://economics.uwo.ca/faculty/lochner/papers/educationandcrime.pdf

Enjoy. The correlation between poor education and crime rates and incarceration rates is clear and obvious.

Enjoy what exactly? I never said that poor education equates to success in all walks of life, just that it has very little relevance on a drafts prospects ability to play in the NFL and perform at a high level.

I havent brought up anything relating t the correlation between poor education and crime rates in this instance because Im saying that a low basic IQ has no effect on a players ability to do their job on the football field. I dont see how this can be argued, there are countless examples of poorly educated players competing at a high level in the NFL, NBA, Premiership, tennis etc

As I said before a low IQ may lead to questionable decision making and may be correlated to the high number of players who go bankrupt within four years of retirement but its hardly the aim of teams to ensure that their players are successful in later life they are, and rightly so, focused on winning games.

HigginsJ

What did Antonio Cromartie score???

Chucky the tree

frostie500 wrote: »

Enjoy what exactly? I never said that poor education equates to success in all walks of life, just that it has very little relevance on a drafts prospects ability to play in the NFL and perform at a high level.

I havent brought up anything relating t the correlation between poor education and crime rates in this instance because Im saying that a low basic IQ has no effect on a players ability to do their job on the football field. I dont see how this can be argued, there are countless examples of poorly educated players competing at a high level in the NFL, NBA, Premiership, tennis etc

As I said before a low IQ may lead to questionable decision making and may be correlated to the high number of players who go bankrupt within four years of retirement but its hardly the aim of teams to ensure that their players are successful in later life they are, and rightly so, focused on winning games.

Would you not consider decision making to be a important area for a QB?

frostie500

Chucky the tree wrote: »

Would you not consider decision making to be a important area for a QB?

Apologies Chucky I meant questionable decision making in every day life, I am yet to see how a low wonderlic score has had a direct impact on players performance in the NFL. When you see the number of players that scored low on the test and went to the HoF it backs up my point that their test score has no relevance to their ability to their job as pro footballers

Chucky the tree

frostie500 wrote: »

Apologies Chucky I meant questionable decision making in every day life, I am yet to see how a low wonderlic score has had a direct impact on players performance in the NFL. When you see the number of players that scored low on the test and went to the HoF it backs up my point that their test score has no relevance to their ability to their job as pro footballers

I think for certain position it is important though. I haven't done an indepth study but It would be interesting to see how all the HOF Qbers scored in the nfl. Looking at the list you provided most of the QBs who socred low but had good careers were nearly all rushing ones, maybe there ability to rush made up for poor decision making is the pass game - basically they passed the ball less often because they didnt need too. Certainly in the current nfl the passing game has improved and gotten far more important, how many of the current best QBs scored poorly in the wonderlic? Very few afaik.

HigginsJ

RYAN FITZPATRICK 48
BILLS

ALEX SMITH Wonderlic Score 40
49ers

ELI MANNING Wonderlic Score 39
GIANTS

Brian Griese: 39

MATTHEW STAFFORD Wonderlic Score
38
LIONS

Charlie Frye: 38

TONY ROMO Wonderlic Score 37
COWBOYS

Sam Bradford Wonderlic
36


PHILIP RIVERS Wonderlic Score 30
CHARGERS


TOM BRADY Wonderlic Score 33
PATRIOTS


Sage Rosenfels
32


TRENT EDWARDS, 31
BILLS


J.P. Losman
31

BRADY QUINN 29
BROWNS


Dennis Dixon: 29


MATT RYAN Wonderlic Score 32
FALCONS

MARC BULGER 29
RAMS

PEYTON MANNING Wonderlic Score 28
COLTS


DREW BREES Wonderlic Score 28
SAINTS

KYLE ORTON 28
BRONCOS


MATT SCHAUB Wonderlic Score 28
TEXANS

JOE FLACCO Wonderlic Score 27
RAVENS


JOSH FREEMAN 27
BUCCANNEERS

CARSON PALMER Wonderlic Score 26
BENGALS


JAY CUTLER 26
BEARS


Ben Roethlisberger Wonderlic Score
25


CHAD PENNINGTON 25 DOLPHINS



Colt McCoy Wonderlic Score
25


Jamarcus Russell
24


David Carr
24


JASON CAMPBELL Wonderlic Score 23 REDSKINS



MATT HASSELBECK 23 SEAHAWKS



Jimmy Clausen Wonderlic Score
23


BRETT FAVRE Wonderlic Score 22
VIKINGS


Tim Tebow Wonderlic Score
22


CHAD HENNE Wonderlic 22
DOLPHINS


BRUCE GRADKOWSKI Wonderlic Score 19 RAIDERS



AJ Feeley
19


Daunte Culpepper
18


DONOVAN McNABB Wonderlic Score 16
EAGLES


VINCE YOUNG 15
TITANS



DAVID GARRARD Wonderlic Score 14
JAGUARS

HigginsJ

sorry about the slightly incosistent font there.

Red Crow

HigginsJ wrote: »

What did Antonio Cromartie score???

He scored a 12. A genius in the locker room.

nerd69

Eli Manning wrote: »

He scored a 12. A genius in the locker room.

so he could end up with more kids than wounderlic points

frostie500

Chucky the tree wrote: »

I think for certain position it is important though. I haven't done an indepth study but It would be interesting to see how all the HOF Qbers scored in the nfl. Looking at the list you provided most of the QBs who socred low but had good careers were nearly all rushing ones, maybe there ability to rush made up for poor decision making is the pass game - basically they passed the ball less often because they didnt need too. Certainly in the current nfl the passing game has improved and gotten far more important, how many of the current best QBs scored poorly in the wonderlic? Very few afaik.

I do agree that you need a lot of intelligence to run a current NFL offence but I simply believe that football intelligence is different to that measured by the wonderlic.

Of the QBs that I named at the lower end of the scale I think it is unfair to class them as rushing QBs. McNabb, McNair and Cunningham all started as run first QBs but each evolved into a much greater threat with their arms than their legs within a few years in the league. I also wouldnt say that their poor decision making was negated by their athletic ability; they made plays in the league and had a productive career simply because their decision making ability allowed them to see that they could make positive yardage on a play and be productive by running the ball

Of the players that I cited with lower scores there are four H0F QBs named with McNair and McNabb having enjoyed exceptional careers. In other words there was the same correlation between a high score (the Elis, Rodgers, etc) and a low score (the Cunninghams, Marinos, Kellys)

Paully D

Gary Tinsley found dead :eek:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/sports/colleges/university-of-minnesota-confirms-death-of-gopher-linebacker-gary-tinsley-who-was-22/2012/04/06/gIQAfaw4zS_story.html

Was expected to be around #20 in OLB's. Very sad.