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Life on the dole
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I've never been on the Dole, and I honestly have no feelings about it, or the people who get it. I don't resent them, envy them or pity them. If it's a choice, that's fine by me, if it's because they can't find work and need it, that's ok too. I also don't care what level it is at, it could be €600 a week and I'd care less. Lifes for each person themselves, if you spend it worrying what everyone else is getting, it eats you up and messes you up. I'd die of boredom, I actually love work and for me it just follows, I care not a bit about money, I just do what I like doing and money follows - I'm not rich, I have enough and I support a lot of families by creating work for a good few local lads who otherwise would not have any, but, tbh, I'm just having a bit of fun and I leave the deep stuff to others. I'm lucky cos I have a mad head that just sees work that pays, but not everyones like that and thats just fine by me - why the feck would you want to see people poor? The dole should be there to provide a safety net for people, otherwise what's the point in life if everyone just gets shat on when they are in need? Sorry for the windy post, I usually try to keep it short.
Excellent post. If only everyone had your sensible attitude, decency and compassion for others less well off! It always strikes me as pathetic sour grapes when I hear people moaning and complaining about what people get on the dole. If they spent a fraction of that energy and righteous indignation actively holding our bankers and politicians to account for the multiple billions we're in hock to we might get a better country than the one we have.
I guess it's easier to scapegoat the poor and pour bile and vitriol on them than go after rich bankers and politicians. It's pathetic, and classic divide and conquer tactics by the elite. What fools we are to fall into the trap! seems to be working in this country though judging by the comments I read in threads like this about those on the dole.
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I think you are making a point for me there:D
People do stereotype people on the dole as you described above and any person with a bit of cop on would realise that four hundred and odd thousand people do not wear shell suits.
Not sure what point I'm making for you as you don't specify but glad you see the idiocy and unfairness of the stereotype I mentioned.But there are a lot of people out there who will love the fact that your friends(and I wont argue with you over this;))go, as you say, on swanky holidays.
It will be the thing that they will say "Oh there you go, told you the feckin' dole was too high"
Your
suggesting you either do still disagree and you think I'm making up what I'm telling you or something else, no idea what 
oh well...
I'm not responsible for others ignorant and ill-informed opinions if they think the dole is too high just from one example I give. Anyone with an ounce of sense and decency would take a more nuanced and informed approach to the issue and educate themselves on the realities of life on the dole for most people.0 -
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say_who_now? wrote: »GT I've long respected you as a poster so I'm just going to step out of this one rather than keep it going when we're totally at polar opposite views on this particular topic...
What, you mean you had respect for me before this? sorry to let you down :P where did I lose you? it's was when I told you I was self employed wasn't it? that always happens *sigh*
No problem if you don't want to reply any further, thank's for keeping it civil 0 -
Greentopia wrote: »Not sure what point I'm making for you as you don't specify but glad you see the idiocy and unfairness of the stereotype I mentioned.
Your suggesting you either do still disagree and you think I'm making up what I'm telling you or something else, no idea what oh well...
I'm not responsible for others ignorant and ill-informed opinions if they think the dole is too high just from one example I give. Anyone with an ounce of sense and decency would take a more nuanced and informed approach to the issue and educate themselves on the realities of life on the dole for most people.
Okay,
I'l give my opinion of dole claimants.
They are people.
Your neighbours, friends possibly even family members.
The vast, vast ,majority of people in receipt of SW worked before jobseekers.
Or became ill and then claimed Disability.
Maybe I have read one too many threads about the dole on here and the stereotypes that it spews forth ie "dutch gold swilling, hoop earring wearing, 20 blue a day, bud" that I have become sick of it.
My response to your post about your friends was that I did not wish for the fools who spew forth that kind of bunk to have any more ammunition in their crusade to stand on their high-horse and say "Told ya them feckers get to much on the labour. Ya see, I told. They are swanning of ta feckin Mexico now. Give them a score a week, that'll learn 'em".
I know too many people who have fallen on hard times.0 -
Nice post, considering how rude I was to yours, but in fairness, I was being honest, and you were dissapearing up your own sphincter. I recognise you consider yourself an artist, and that's all good, but maybe, just maybe you are not alone? Maybe there are loads of other people who are also artists but can't make a living as an artist and so clean the local factory canteen for a living? That does not make them any less intelligent or artistic, they just do what they have to do, despite their artistic inclinations. Which maybe takes a lot of guts and stamina. If I hadn't seen such riches I could live with being poor, etc. You either get it or you don't. If you don't, and you take offence, good luck, if you do, and you see the point I'm making, all's good and actually, we're on the same sheet.:)Greentopia wrote: »Excellent post. If only everyone had your sensible attitude, decency and compassion for others less well off! It always strikes me as pathetic sour grapes when I hear people moaning and complaining about what people get on the dole. If they spent a fraction of that energy and righteous indignation actively holding our bankers and politicians to account for the multiple billions we're in hock to we might get a better country than the one we have.
I guess it's easier to scapegoat the poor and pour bile and vitriol on them than go after rich bankers and politicians. It's pathetic, and classic divide and conquer tactics by the elite. What fools we are to fall into the trap! seems to be working in this country though judging by the comments I read in threads like this about those on the dole.
On another note, most people who are on the dole paid their PRSI and therefore are only getting their own money drip fed back to them, so what's the issue? They bought their entitlement to the Dole, it is theirs to claim??? What's the issue with that???0 -
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Greentopia wrote: »Excellent post. If only everyone had your sensible attitude, decency and compassion for others less well off! It always strikes me as pathetic sour grapes when I hear people moaning and complaining about what people get on the dole. If they spent a fraction of that energy and righteous indignation actively holding our bankers and politicians to account for the multiple billions we're in hock to we might get a better country than the one we have.
I guess it's easier to scapegoat the poor and pour bile and vitriol on them than go after rich bankers and politicians. It's pathetic, and classic divide and conquer tactics by the elite. What fools we are to fall into the trap! seems to be working in this country though judging by the comments I read in threads like this about those on the dole.
Well I can agree with having compassion for those less well off than I am GT, but it was the way I suppose that it came across initially in your post as if your friends were enjoying the life of reilly claiming social welfare and laughing at the rest of us poor fools working our butts off to support THEIR life choices-Greentopia wrote: »I have two (single, it must be said) close friends who are on it for years-one for about 15 years! because they can't live on what they earn and they manage ok. In fact they both go off on holidays and trips away to far flung places like Mexico every few months and European capitals every few weeks.
* cue howls of indignation and horror from the gainfully employed here :pac:.
It was the contradiction here between suggesting they can't live on what they earn, so they claim social welfare, and then in the same paragraph to make a point of saying they fly off on holidays and trips to all manner of foreign destinations every few weeks!
This to me was not only suggesting that they were living beyond their means, but that they were enjoying holidays and travelling the world while claiming from a system that was only ever intended to be used as a safety net for those that needed it to keep a roof over their heads and food on the table.
Of course it was going to get people's backs up when they felt that people were making a mockery of a system that was put in place to protect the most vulnerable in society, not a pair of middle class misfits whose only philosophy in life is living for today and I make myself happy and to hell with anyone that might begrudge me what I want to do with MY life. If they choose to take from the state, then is it wrong for the state to expect something in return? Art is only worth the value that someone else puts on your work, and I too know many artists, photographers, graphic designers, my own wife is extremely creative, but she keeps her art and handcrafts as a hobby because she knows how hard it is to make a living from it, yet this does not stop her enjoying it, and others enjoying her work.
The old saying that "all work and no play makes jack a dull boy", should equally be balanced with "all play and no work makes jack unpopular with those that have to pick up the slack while he's off playing!".
My point is that there has to be give ASWEL as take, and while I can appreciate the efforts of a struggling artist, there's a line has to be drawn where they must be told "now you're just taking the proverbial", you cannot expect others to help you achieve what you want in life when all you do is take, and expect that what YOU value, will be of any value to THEM!!
It'd be like me walking into Tesco and expecting to pay for my groceries with the new waistcoat I just knitted for the staff that I think will look rather dashing on them! I'd quickly be told GTFO and only rightly so!0 -
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Greentopia wrote: »What, you mean you had respect for me before this? sorry to let you down :P where did I lose you? it's was when I told you I was self employed wasn't it? that always happens *sigh*
No problem if you don't want to reply any further, thank's for keeping it civil
Haha, ah not at all GT, I can listen to someone's opinion and still respectfully disagree with them, I agree with you on a much broader range of topics that you've previously given your opinion on and I find you to be one of the most articulate and intelligent posters on boards... aaaand I'll stop short of hero worship!
But no, well you didn't lose me as such, it was just I could see where you were coming from, but just that we weren't going to see eye to eye on this one topic, self employed myself too btw, and much happier for it than working for somebody else, but I had to work for somebody else for nearly 20 years before I was able to be in the position I am now, and even now I work hard for my customers, because without them, I have no business!
I only hadn't wanted to reply further as I couldn't articulate myself in a way that you might see where I was coming from, so I decided to step back, then I decided to try and come at it again, and even now I still don't know will I have articulated myself enough to the point where you might see where I was coming from.
And as for keeping it civil, well, manners at least cost nothing, too many posters on boards tend to forget this sometimes and think they can mouth off indiscriminately as some posters (not you obviously!) have done in this thread already... 0 -
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Nice post, considering how rude I was to yours, but in fairness, I was being honest, and you were dissapearing up your own sphincter.
That's ok, you quoted yourself so I didn't take it too badly It was a thinly veiled personal attack of course but it made me smile too so no harm done I recognise you consider yourself an artist, and that's all good, but maybe, just maybe you are not alone? Maybe there are loads of other people who are also artists but can't make a living as an artist and so clean the local factory canteen for a living? That does not make them any less intelligent or artistic, they just do what they have to do, despite their artistic inclinations. Which maybe takes a lot of guts and stamina. If I hadn't seen such riches I could live with being poor, etc. You either get it or you don't. If you don't, and you take offence, good luck, if you do, and you see the point I'm making, all's good and actually, we're on the same sheet.:)
Not sure if I'm correct in what I'm thinking but if I am then I know you don't mean any offense so none taken I don't want to ask any personal questions here that you may not feel comfortable answering.
Yes fair point on what you said, but the people I know would probably feel that because they're educated for the work they do and their art is such a major and important part of their life that they can't compromise on it by working in a canteen or whatever which would take from their time making art. I honestly don't know, maybe I'll ask them
I know from what J has told me-the non-national, that he has fundamental ideological and political objections to working 'for the man'. Uh yeah, so there is that to contend with too. I share some of his views but we won't go there :pac:
I can't see my other friend the former Muckross College or her family being too impressed with the idea of her working in a canteen (a penniless artist on the dole is ok you see, lol) but I'll ask her what she thinks.On another note, most people who are on the dole paid their PRSI and therefore are only getting their own money drip fed back to them, so what's the issue? They bought their entitlement to the Dole, it is theirs to claim??? What's the issue with that???
Quite. What indeed.0 -
say_who_now? wrote: »Well I can agree with having compassion for those less well off than I am GT, but it was the way I suppose that it came across initially in your post as if your friends were enjoying the life of reilly claiming social welfare and laughing at the rest of us poor fools working our butts off to support THEIR life choices-
Ah ok I see. I perhaps phrased that post injudiciously. I really don't think they're laughing at other people's choices or feel an overweening sense of entitlement to their SW money, or at least I hope not! but I can see how some people may think that, yes. I hope my further posts clarified what I meant.say_who_now? wrote: »It was the contradiction here between suggesting they can't live on what they earn, so they claim social welfare, and then in the same paragraph to make a point of saying they fly off on holidays and trips to all manner of foreign destinations every few weeks!
This to me was not only suggesting that they were living beyond their means, but that they were enjoying holidays and travelling the world while claiming from a system that was only ever intended to be used as a safety net for those that needed it to keep a roof over their heads and food on the table.
Ok. Well I know for a fact they really couldn't live on what they earn if they didn't have the dole, and I'm sure they would pay tax if only they earned enough! It wouldn't be a case of just not having any luxuries if their dole was cut, it would be a case of not being able to eat for one of them anyway. The other would probably just move back in with her family or else move to some country where the cost of living is way cheaper.
So the dole for them is keeping a roof over their heads and food on the table, but because their overheads are minimal it also means they have lots of money left over which allows them do what they love-travel and experience new places and people. Their income from their work you see is neither regular or secure. They might get a €3000 in a week if they sold a few paintings at an opening, but then they may not earn anything for months, but bills still have to be paid every week! such is the nature of the work for many artists. And crafts people too.say_who_now? wrote: »Of course it was going to get people's backs up when they felt that people were making a mockery of a system that was put in place to protect the most vulnerable in society, not a pair of middle class misfits whose only philosophy in life is living for today and I make myself happy and to hell with anyone that might begrudge me what I want to do with MY life. If they choose to take from the state, then is it wrong for the state to expect something in return? Art is only worth the value that someone else puts on your work, and I too know many artists, photographers, graphic designers, my own wife is extremely creative, but she keeps her art and handcrafts as a hobby because she knows how hard it is to make a living from it, yet this does not stop her enjoying it, and others enjoying her work.
They're not "misfits" as you put it, just people who work as full time artists. They're both intelligent educated people who are making the best out of their choices in life. Or perhaps choices is not the right word as making things with ones hands is more a compulsion if you love doing it. Maybe it's society that is wrong when they can't earn a decent living from their work even though they work every day?? that's my view. Why should art and crafts be just a dalliance, a hobby, not "real work". That's BS IMO and says a lot about the priorities and values of a society where too many people feel that way. The arts are vital to a healthy society and should be supported and seen as just as valid as any other occupation.
And how do you know they don't give back in return? just because they don't pay income tax does not mean they don't give in other ways. They pay indirect taxes on pretty much everything they buy and one of them gives time to help cleaning up her locale. It's not good to make assumptions about what people do or don't give.say_who_now? wrote: »It'd be like me walking into Tesco and expecting to pay for my groceries with the new waistcoat I just knitted for the staff that I think will look rather dashing on them! I'd quickly be told GTFO and only rightly so!
As a knitter I like your idea maybe I'll try that the next time I'm in my local Tesco. :pac: Or not seeing as though I loathe those corporate wanksters that destroy local businesses with every fibre of my being but anyhoo...
I guess money is here to stay much as I dislike it but I actually would love to have a barter scheme in place where we do smaller jobs for each other where no money exchanges hands. A LETS scheme on a much bigger scale.
Sorry, going OT.0 -
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Greentopia wrote: »...
I guess money is here to stay much as I dislike it but I actually would love to have a barter scheme in place where we do smaller jobs for each other where no money exchanges hands. A LETS scheme on a much bigger scale.
Sorry, going OT.
I think I could begin to like your idealogy GT- how about you scratch my back, I'll scratch yours?
Ah no, I DO actually see where you're coming from, but it's just not an idealogy I could ever see myself subscribing to, as much as I support the arts and am an avid supporter of local charities and involvement in my community, I could do none of what I do now had I not first done the things I didn't like to do so much.0 -
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say_who_now? wrote: »Haha, ah not at all GT, I can listen to someone's opinion and still respectfully disagree with them, I agree with you on a much broader range of topics that you've previously given your opinion on and I find you to be one of the most articulate and intelligent posters on boards... aaaand I'll stop short of hero worship!
Ah jayze how do you expect me to verbally eviscerate you after that now?? feck sake ah thank's, *blushes* and there I was thinking no-one really quite rightly gives a damn as to what I write or if I go AWOL from Boards for weeks or months at a time. Maybe I should start posting more regularly :pac:
*cue those still on the thread telling me to feck off, enquiring "who are you??" "I always thought you're a wanker anyway and I hear you smell" etc. etc. Just to balance things out like.say_who_now? wrote: »But no, well you didn't lose me as such, it was just I could see where you were coming from, but just that we weren't going to see eye to eye on this one topic, self employed myself too btw, and much happier for it than working for somebody else, but I had to work for somebody else for nearly 20 years before I was able to be in the position I am now, and even now I work hard for my customers, because without them, I have no business!
No worries, glad things are working out well for you SWN. It's bloody tough earning a living being self-employed eh? that's why I have to work P/T too. Not that I mind it though, the P/T work is a doddle and I can do my own work there too.say_who_now? wrote: »I only hadn't wanted to reply further as I couldn't articulate myself in a way that you might see where I was coming from, so I decided to step back, then I decided to try and come at it again, and even now I still don't know will I have articulated myself enough to the point where you might see where I was coming from.
I think I do see where you're coming from, but as it's so late I think I may read back on some of the posts again tomorrow when I'm more mentally sharp and then maybe I'll be able to add further to my opinions if needed that's ok. I'm wrecked and the posts are kind of blurring into each other at this stage!say_who_now? wrote: »And as for keeping it civil, well, manners at least cost nothing, too many posters on boards tend to forget this sometimes and think they can mouth off indiscriminately as some posters (not you obviously!) have done in this thread already...
I quite agree, about manners I mean. Rudeness is a real bugbear with me.
Yay, finally caught up with my replies!0 -
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Boombastic wrote: »Yes it's easy to come on the internet and complain that you struggle to pay the esb out of 100/week, without clarifying that there is more household income and you are not paying the full amount alone and can afford €30 for the vets for your cat.
Did you find the Kopparberg in the end?
I really don't understand posts like the above do you want people to suffer or something? 0 -
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