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The Religion of Aliens

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    #242
    Logical Fallacy
    Registered Users Posts: 5,933 ✭✭✭Logical Fallacy


    bbam wrote: »
    Thats your opinion, I respect that fact even though I believe my original point to be true..

    Any kind of back up for that original post?

    It would be an interesting point of discussion if it was expanded upon.


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    #243
    Dravokivich
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Music Moderators, Politics Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 22,360 CMod ✭✭✭✭Dravokivich


    starbelgrade wrote: »
    Fair enough. But that doesn't negate the possibility that if life were discovered on another planet, that the life could be itself a God of sorts.

    You've been watching too much Stargate again haven't ya?


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    #244
    Seachmall
    Registered Users Posts: 7,041 ✭✭✭Seachmall


    mickrock wrote: »
    The mistake you're making is that God(if that's what you want to call it) is not a supreme being outside the universe but is part of nature itself or even is nature itself.

    No, an intelligent creator cannot be constrained by, or limited to, it's creation.

    Therefore an intelligent designer of the natural universe is outside the realm of the universe and thus outside the scope of natural sciences.

    I don't refer to it as god. Other people keep doing that.

    God is just a word, one with a lot of baggage.
    Why wouldn't you refer to an intelligent designer as a god?


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    #245
    mickrock
    Registered Users Posts: 1,021 ✭✭✭mickrock


    Seachmall wrote: »
    No, an intelligent creator cannot be constrained by, or limited to, it's creation.

    Therefore an intelligent designer of the natural universe is outside the realm of the universe and thus outside the scope of natural sciences.

    Just because an intelligent designer might not be limited to its creation doesn't mean it cannot be part of if.

    Seachmall wrote: »
    Why wouldn't you refer to an intelligent designer as a god?

    Because for most people the word has religious connotations and they end up thinking it's something that it isn't.


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    #246
    starbelgrade
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,739 ✭✭✭✭starbelgrade


    bbam wrote: »
    In fairness a cuddly toy could be dangerous in the wrong hands...:rolleyes:

    That's kind of like saying in reply to someone saying "We need to build defence shields for the possibility of tsumami's to protect our coastline"... "Well, I think the money would be better spent on protecting office workers from the dangers of paper cuts."


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    #247
    HavingCrack
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,847 ✭✭✭HavingCrack


    al28283 wrote: »
    Because everywhere like Earth that we know of has life, and everywhere unlike Earth we know of doesn't

    That's not really the answer I was looking for.


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    #248
    Jesus Wept
    Registered Users Posts: 25,243 ✭✭✭✭Jesus Wept


    Mickeroo wrote: »
    Just curious. Where are you getting this figure? As far as anyone is concerned I though the universe was regarded as being 13.75 billion years old?

    That was a few years back.


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    #249
    pokertalk
    Registered Users Posts: 806 ✭✭✭pokertalk


    so in conclusion we dont know if their is anything out there:D


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    #250
    wonderfulname
    Registered Users Posts: 3,943 ✭✭✭wonderfulname


    That's a bit simplistic and implies the wrong thing.


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    #251
    pokertalk
    Registered Users Posts: 806 ✭✭✭pokertalk


    other life forms out there i mean.


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    #252
    wonderfulname
    Registered Users Posts: 3,943 ✭✭✭wonderfulname


    I know.


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    #253
    pokertalk
    Registered Users Posts: 806 ✭✭✭pokertalk


    so is my opinion wrong?


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    #254
    pokertalk
    Registered Users Posts: 806 ✭✭✭pokertalk


    juryhoney wrote: »
    I get that.
    what?


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    #255
    B_Fanatic
    Registered Users Posts: 334 ✭✭B_Fanatic


    starbelgrade wrote: »
    How do you know that?

    Olber's paradox. Not sure if this particular proof was mentioned before.


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    #256
    Cú Giobach
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,772 ✭✭✭Cú Giobach


    Seachmall wrote: »
    We know the universe is expanding, it can't expand if it's infinite.

    Can it?
    It can.
    1. If the universe is infinite then there is no physical edge, therefore there is no boundary that is moving outwards into something.
    2. The expansion we observe consists of distant galaxy clusters moving away from each other, in other words there is more space "appearing" between these clusters, and since you can fit as much of anything as you want into an infinite space and never fill it, an infinite universe can indefinitely fill with space between objects, ie, expand.


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    #257
    Seachmall
    Registered Users Posts: 7,041 ✭✭✭Seachmall


    mickrock wrote: »
    Just because an intelligent designer might not be limited to its creation doesn't mean it cannot be part of if.
    It can be involved in the universe but because it is not natural (i.e. constrained by the laws of the universe) it does not fall within the scope of natural science.
    Cú Giobach wrote: »
    It can.
    1. If the universe is infinite then there is no physical edge, therefore there is no boundary that is moving outwards into something.
    You can't increment an infinite. If the universe's size is infinite it cannot then take up more space by expanding, it would have to be finite to do that.


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    #258
    Cú Giobach
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,772 ✭✭✭Cú Giobach


    Seachmall wrote: »
    You can't increment an infinite. If the universe's size is infinite it cannot then take up more space by expanding, it would have to be finite to do that.
    I didn't say it would take up more space.


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    #259
    Seachmall
    Registered Users Posts: 7,041 ✭✭✭Seachmall


    Cú Giobach wrote: »
    I didn't say it would take up more space.

    Fair enough, and I quoted the wrong point, but it remains that you cannot add space to something that is infinite and therefore expansion is not possible.
    The expansion we observe consists of distant galaxy clusters moving away from each other, in other words there is more space "appearing" between these clusters, and since you can fit as much of anything as you want into an infinite space and never fill it, an infinite universe can indefinitely fill with space between objects, ie, expand.
    This sounds more like local expansion as oppose to the universe expanding.


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    #260
    Cú Giobach
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,772 ✭✭✭Cú Giobach


    Seachmall wrote: »
    Fair enough, and I quoted the wrong point, but it remains that you cannot add space to something that is infinite and therefore expansion is not possible.
    You can add as much of anything you like to an infinite space, including more space. ;)
    This sounds more like local expansion as oppose to the universe expanding.
    I don't really get what you mean by "local", but if the universe is homogeneous and infinite, then what we observe here is the same everywhere, and every cluster in the universe is moving away from every other, with the result that the amount of space between them is increasing, or in other words the amount of space in the universe as a whole is increasing.

    Infinity is a rather odd creature and the mistake people often make is trying to visualise or understand it in a finite sense, it can't be done, because our logic of the finite completely breaks down with infinity. Here is an example where the seemingly logical isn't as simple as it seems.

    Infinity is a human construct and whether it exists in reality (eg, an infinite universe) is questionable, but regarding our constructed concept there are things that can happen in an infinite space that can't happen in the finite and vice-versa.


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    #261
    allibastor
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,520 ✭✭✭allibastor


    i am sure aliens whould have there own form of religion. well maybe not, it seems to be human nature to look to god or something like that as a way to put off our fears or someone to ask requests of. most people who beleive in god would say that this reason is for fear of what comes next. if you have no belief that there is any life after this one, and you are not happy here or feel you could do more, the idea of heaven and religion is very attractive.

    though i would hope if aliens have a religion they would listen to its message a bit more than the people who pratice it here. i think jesus had a different outlook on religion and how to treat people than the people who supposedly follow his name. look at all our nice irish preists foe example. they dont seem to follow the message of what was being told to them. anyway lets just hope if life exists out there and it is smater than us it knows right from wrong and will come in peace


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    #262
    Noopti
    Registered Users Posts: 2,776 ✭✭✭Noopti


    Came to this thread expecting fun discussion about Aliens, then notice the auld "Intelligent Design" argument appearing.

    *leaves*


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    #263
    mickrock
    Registered Users Posts: 1,021 ✭✭✭mickrock


    Seachmall wrote: »
    It can be involved in the universe but because it is not natural (i.e. constrained by the laws of the universe) it does not fall within the scope of natural science.

    The important question is whether intelligent design is true or not.

    Since there is an appearance of design in living things, ID is a plausible explanation and is one that has not yet been refuted.

    In the absence of an explanation for the origin of life, and in particular the complex information-rich genetic material, it is reasonable to infer that design is involved.


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    #264
    Seachmall
    Registered Users Posts: 7,041 ✭✭✭Seachmall


    mickrock wrote: »
    Since there is an appearance of design in living things, ID is a plausible explanation and is one that has not yet been refuted.
    That sounds like the Watchmaker analogy which relies on a misunderstanding of how complexity arises in nature, which leads to the fallacy that it necessitates an intelligent designer.

    An Intelligent Designer is possible, but it's neither required nor science. And the fact it hasn't been refuted does not make it more reasonable, infinite possibilities have not be refuted.
    mickrock wrote: »
    In the absence of an explanation for the origin of life, and in particular the complex information-rich genetic material, it is reasonable to infer that design is involved.

    It's reasonable to accept that it's possible, not to infer it.


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    #265
    Cú Giobach
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,772 ✭✭✭Cú Giobach


    B_Fanatic wrote: »
    Olber's paradox. Not sure if this particular proof was mentioned before.
    The finite age of the universe makes this a non starter.
    Our observable universe is around 27 billion light years in diameter, the actual universe is defiantly larger than that, but we aren't able to see any further because of the finite speed of light, the light from anything beyond around 13.7 billion light years won't have had time to reach us.
    When we look at a part of space around 13.7 billion light years away we are looking back to the beginning of time and we can't see beyond that.


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    #266
    psychward
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,187 ✭✭✭psychward


    allibastor wrote: »
    i am sure aliens whould have there own form of religion. well maybe not, it seems to be human nature to look to god or something like that as a way to put off our fears or someone to ask requests of. most people who beleive in god would say that this reason is for fear of what comes next. if you have no belief that there is any life after this one, and you are not happy here or feel you could do more, the idea of heaven and religion is very attractive.

    though i would hope if aliens have a religion they would listen to its message a bit more than the people who pratice it here. i think jesus had a different outlook on religion and how to treat people than the people who supposedly follow his name. look at all our nice irish preists foe example. they dont seem to follow the message of what was being told to them. anyway lets just hope if life exists out there and it is smater than us it knows right from wrong and will come in peace

    They might consider themselves the ''chosen people'' and get quite cross when they discover we exist :D
    If they survive for millions of years ahead of us their society might be quite homogeneous.. in fact maybe even Borglike :eek:


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    #267
    RichieC
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,333 ✭✭✭RichieC


    infinite space doesnt sit well with me. infinite space with infinite atoms means there is infinite earths with exact copys of me knocking around. doesnt seem right to me. but then I supose thats not a requirement..


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    #268
    psychward
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,187 ✭✭✭psychward


    RichieC wrote: »
    infinite space doesnt sit well with me. infinite space with infinite atoms means there is infinite earths with exact copys of me knocking around. doesnt seem right to me. but then I supose thats not a requirement..

    I walked up to a friend of mine one night in Burkerking blind drunk. He didn't have a clue who I was. I was freaked out by his blank stare. It turns out he has an identical twin who rarely visits Dublin but hates telling everyone as he wants to be his own person or something along those lines. Identical copies of people already exist...


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    #269
    mickrock
    Registered Users Posts: 1,021 ✭✭✭mickrock


    Seachmall wrote: »
    An Intelligent Designer is possible,

    Yes.

    Seachmall wrote: »
    but it's neither required nor science.

    There either is or isn't intelligent design. If it happens to be true that there is ID, your statement makes no sense.

    There is no alternative explanation for the origin of life, and neo-Darwinism has weaknesses.


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    #270
    Seachmall
    Registered Users Posts: 7,041 ✭✭✭Seachmall


    mickrock wrote: »
    There either is or isn't intelligent design. If it happens to be true that there is ID, your statement makes no sense.
    No, it still makes complete sense. If there is an intelligent designer it still wouldn't be sciences arena as we currently define science. And the current universe does not require an intelligent designer as we understand it, regardless if one actually exists or not (i.e. we can explain the complexity of life without the need for a designer).
    There is no alternative explanation for the origin of life, and neo-Darwinism has weaknesses.
    Evolution does not deal with the origin of life so it doesn't have any weaknesses in that respect. You are thinking of abiogensis which is completely separate to evolution.

    You're also falling into an argument from ignorance fallacy.

    A gap in one explanation is not evidence for another explanation. If you want to prove ID you cannot say "well our current understanding is weak or has gaps", that's irrelevant. You must prove it on it's own merit.


    .


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    #271
    RichieC
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,333 ✭✭✭RichieC


    psychward wrote: »
    RichieC wrote: »
    infinite space doesnt sit well with me. infinite space with infinite atoms means there is infinite earths with exact copys of me knocking around. doesnt seem right to me. but then I supose thats not a requirement..

    I walked up to a friend of mine one night in Burkerking blind drunk. He didn't have a clue who I was. I was freaked out by his blank stare. It turns out he has an identical twin who rarely visits Dublin but hates telling everyone as he wants to be his own person or something along those lines. Identical copies of people already exist...

    true enough but that's not what I mean.

    l mean exact copies of earth and its
    inhabitants far off in the infinite universe.

    if theres infinite space and infinite atoms then that situation is how it is becausr there is a finite amount of ways atoms can be arranged.


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