Voting Rights For Irish Born Living Abroad

Feathers

poeticseraphim wrote: »

Feathers wrote: »

poeticseraphim wrote: »

People don't become an American citizen based on whether or not they pay tax, just as an American citizen they commit a crime by not filing tax return — there's a difference. It's not like they can give up citizenship if they choose not to pay tax.

& apart from the wealthy, the majority of Americans abroad pay nothing for their vote or citizenship, try as you might to ignore that.

Actually they often do give up citizenship to avoid double taxation.


And yes most Americans DO contribute somehing.


No they don't become Americans based on whether they pay tax...but with being an American citizen comes the responsibility of tax and if they don'y pay it they are taken to prison and lose their vote.

The people who don't pay go to prison and lose their vote.

Anyway that is AMERICA ..it's fine for them if they are fine with it.

Any legal advice to the Dáil has never been favourable.

There would need to be a constitutional referendum on it legally anyway and i don't see it passing.

As far as I am aware, it's illegal for Americans to renounce their citizenship in order to avoid tax.

Most Americans do contribute something? Do you have a link for that one?

Yes this is the US system, but you're the one who keeps highlighting how they pay tax for their vote. I just mentioned that the first $90k of this is exempt. If you don't like the example of US citizens you should stop trying to use them to back up your point.

poeticseraphim

Feathers wrote: »

poeticseraphim wrote: »

As far as I am aware, it's illegal for Americans to renounce their citizenship in order to avoid tax.

Most Americans do contribute something? Do you have a link for that one?

Yes this is the US system, but you're the one who keeps highlighting how they pay tax for their vote. I just mentioned that the first $90k of this is exempt. If you don't like the example of US citizens you should stop trying to use them to back up your point.

The opposing argument brought up the US stance on expat tax...it may not have been you.

And i did provide a link as regards US tax expat laws if you check the thread...it is true....although the bilateral agreements differe from country to country but really it seems to be they pay local taxes in their adopted country and a federal tax to the US .and southsouside rosie provided info.

To be honest the fact that there seems to be only few posters interested in this thread with 2 for it seems bring an issue up.



Most Irish here are not in favour and not interested....and there is scant support in the Dáil and again it would have to face a constitutional referendum.

The right to vote is (implicitly) part of a reciprocal arrangement. You are part of the community which will be affected by the decision you help make. If you are an Irish passport holder living in Boston or Melbourne, this is not (at the time) the case.

The above is my main objection...

Now here is something else to consider .....we just had the e voting machine scandal....i can just imagine what overseas polling would amount to.....

I don't see it passin in a referendum here and there does not seem to be any desire in the dáil to hold one.

That might indicate the interest or support the majority of Irish people have.


Perhaps a ref would pass..i don't know...i would have no objections to holding one....but would vote no and i would respect the result that emerged .....whether it would be in my favour or not

However i would expect the voters to have a prsi number and to be reged to vote from within Ireland.....i would also be concerned about foreign pressure on expats with regards some of our referendums......and also deviant polling methods .....i would want strict supervision..

It would have to go through a constitutional ref...as i stated i would vote no...the votes of the Irish living here have little affect of on the lives of those living in Boston yet the votes of those in Boston would have direct affect on people they do not live with.


That above is the unfairness toward the Irish living here....

Also it is slightly useless for the Irish abroad what exactly can Irish politicans do for you???

poeticseraphim

Oh and as regards it being illegal to renounce American citizenship to avoid tax.....yes ...it is....but it isn't


As regards most Americans paying tax .....its complicated ..they must file tax returns to the country....the first 95100 dollars is ex
http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2012-05-01/wealthy-americans-queue-to-give-up-passports-in-swiss-capital.html

There was a proposed bill to have Americans who renouned citizenship pay taxes anyway!...it was dropped after
http://www.thegatewaypundit.com/2012/05/democrats-propose-bill-to-force-those-renouncing-citizenship-to-pay-taxes-anyway/


DAMN....i wish our revenue service could collect tax with half as much zeal..... and think of those offshore bank accounts



It is an easy process..to renounce citizenship..with one final tax return before you renounce citizenship...uncle sam
http://www.expatinfodesk.com/expat-guide/relinquishing-citizenship/renunciating-your-us-passport/five-steps-to-renunciating-your-us-passport/


The us tax situation seems ...complex...plus it seems they like to keep tabs on their expat citizens as regards bank info address and movement etc

http://www.americanexpats.co.uk/taxes.htm


At the very least wealthy Irish expats should pay tax....Bono and Geldoff should at least...


And those earning over a certain amount and it should be monitered to avoid fraud....


But for the reasons in my above post i would vote against it in a constitutional ref

Feathers

poeticseraphim wrote: »

The opposing argument brought up the US stance on expat tax...it may not have been you.

The OP first mentioned the US in the article he quoted:

eire4 wrote:

boston.com article wrote:

The U.S . is the only developed nation that requires its citizens abroad to pay taxes on money earned abroad, but it required the payment of taxation on foreign-earned income long before it granted voting rights to expats, and voting is not conditional on the payment of taxes.

Not really holding up the US as an example, more saying how it's unusual & not equating voting with paying tax; it was actually people agreeing with you that started shouting about how if the US is taxing people for votes, we should too.

poeticseraphim wrote: »

And i did provide a link as regards US tax expat laws if you check the thread...it is true....although the bilateral agreements differe from country to country but really it seems to be they pay local taxes in their adopted country and a federal tax to the US .and southsouside rosie provided info.

Actually I provided a link on US tax law if you check the thread & one which states that tax exemption is up to the value of $92,000. What I asked was did you have a link to your claim that 'And yes most Americans DO contribute somehing'. The article you linked to said 11,000/year give us citizenship out of 6million abroad. Doesn't sound like 'most' of their ex-pats are too worried about all the tax they've to contribute.

poeticseraphim wrote: »

To be honest the fact that there seems to be only few posters interested in this thread with 2 for it seems bring an issue up.

That's a bit of a fallacy, most 8 month old threads have few people still in them.

poeticseraphim wrote: »

Most Irish here are not in favour and not interested....and there is scant support in the Dáil and again it would have to face a constitutional referendum.

Voting for ex-pats doesn't need a referendum. It's likely (as it's such a big change to the status quo, and could cause boundary shifts when trying to balance TD numbers), but it's not unconstitutional at present.

poeticseraphim wrote: »

The right to vote is (implicitly) part of a reciprocal arrangement. You are part of the community which will be affected by the decision you help make. If you are an Irish passport holder living in Boston or Melbourne, this is not (at the time) the case.

I'd argree in theory with your broad definition there, it's just I'd say that people affected by the reciprocal arrangement include Irish abroad. (So do most other democracies considering we're the only OECD country to deny ex-pats a vote.) Again, going back to the article in the first post of the thread:

boston.com article wrote:

Hugh McCafferty has been living in Japan for two years. "I intend to return to Ireland in July 2012. By that time, I will have missed a general election (2011), a presidential election (2011), and a referendum (2009, Lisbon II). I will return to a country very different to the one I left and a political landscape that I was given no opportunity to shape," he said. "If Ireland wants to attract its best and brightest back home, it must give them some stock in Irish society and allow them to remain engaged meaningfully in political and social affairs."

There's one example of a citizen abroad who is in a 'reciprocal arrangement' (as in, will feel the effects) but yet is disenfranchised.

poeticseraphim wrote: »

Now here is something else to consider .....we just had the e voting machine scandal....i can just imagine what overseas polling would amount to.....

Me too, we do overseas polling in every election when we ship ballot boxes in from the islands

poeticseraphim wrote: »

I don't see it passin in a referendum here and there does not seem to be any desire in the dáil to hold one.

That might indicate the interest or support the majority of Irish people have.

What? Since when did the politicians' desire to hold a referendum reflect popular opinion? I'm sure a referendum on scrapping unvouched expenses for TDs would pass by a landslide, but I don't see it going through the Dáil any time soon. Keep in mind as well that one of Fine Gael's election promises was trialling voting for ex-pats during the presendential election!

poeticseraphim wrote: »

i would also be concerned about foreign pressure on expats with regards some of our referendums......and also deviant polling methods .....i would want strict supervision..

I would presume the places that citizens would be most likely to feel undue pressure would be in war-zones, esp with militant regimes in local power. But the citizens most likely to be stationed here are those in the military who can already vote from abroad!

poeticseraphim wrote: »

Also it is slightly useless for the Irish abroad what exactly can Irish politicans do for you???

Again, as mentioned earlier — 1) you're lumping all Irish abroad into a long-term category, when they might only be gone for work/study for less that the life of the Dáil.

2) Believe it or not, government policy can have a big effect on the economy in the country & as a knock on, people's likelihood of returning home. As I said a number of pages ago, a good example is Seán Sherlock making Ireland less desirable for a lot of FDI companies in internet industries with legislation that he's passing. Any Irish wanting to work in this industry within Ireland are 'feeling the pain' of that legislation whether they currently live at home or abroad.

poeticseraphim wrote: »

Oh and as regards it being illegal to renounce American citizenship to avoid tax.....yes ...it is....but it isn't

This is my favourite line of your post.

poeticseraphim wrote: »

At the very least wealthy Irish expats should pay tax....Bono and Geldoff should at least...

Don't tell me the whole ex-pat tax thing has been a rant about Bono all along!
You do know he lives in Dublin, right?

BFDCH.

Lapsed Catholic wrote: »

Surely one should live in , contribute to and pay taxes in the country in which they wish to cast their vote.

I have a relative in the US for the last 60 years. They have been home to Ireland twice, yet they are an Irish citizen. Should they have a vote in how the country is run? Should second generation Irish from UK, Aus, NZ etc have a vote here? What if FF had been returned to power because of the green tinted spectacles worn by many expats and their successors?

what if they had of saved us from the ****e we've went through by not returning FF before the big bust?

I think they should have the vote. I think the diaspora in general should be allowed to elect members to the seanad. We should be trying to get as much buy in as possible from the Irish abraod, we need all the help we can get.

We've lost a lot of good eggs over the years, we could do with their input.

Solair

Simplest solution would be something like this:

You can retain your full constituency vote for a maximum of seven years (1 presidential term) or perhaps 5 years (1 general election).
After you've been permanently abroad for 7 years or more, your registration is cancelled unless you return to Ireland.

After that period your constituency would transfer to a 3 seater or Seanad panel specifically for Irish abroad.

During presidential elections, these voters would get to elect 1 member of the council of state, but not the president.

They wouldn't retain voting rights for referenda or for local elections.


Something like that would be a fair solution to cover temporary migrants but would prevent a situation where people who have citizenship, but who maybe have no real interaction with Irish political life might end up influencing elections in totally weird ways, yet it would include the views of the long term diaspora in Irish politics.

The main concern has always been that you'd have vast numbers of Irish citizens who may have almos zero contact with Ireland voting.

The Corinthian

Solair wrote: »

After you've been permanently abroad for 7 years or more, your registration is cancelled unless you return to Ireland.

How do they know you've emigrated?

Solair

The Corinthian wrote: »

How do they know you've emigrated?

The clock would start when you first registered for your overseas vote and you would have to have physically registered in Ireland for a constituency first. You would not be able to register for the first time from an overseas location,only transfer your existing registration. Otherwise, you could end up flooded with overseas Irish votes who'd no direct link to Ireland.

If you subsequently came back to Ireland all you would need to do is show you're resident and sign up again in person.

Obviously, you'd have to setup a proper central register of electors to avoid duplication of voters. Perhaps a PPS unique identifier recorded with each registration. The system we have at the moment is a total mess !!!

The diaspora register could be administered via the embassies. Or, perhaps where there were difficulties accessing an embassy, someone could register by post. Maybe just send in a copy if your passport and get a local notary / commissioner for oaths to sign off on it.

Each person eligible would have to have an Irish passport anyway.

That's how I'd do it anyway, but since I'm not the Taoiseach or a Government minister, all I can do is make a suggestion on boards.ie

eire4

Solair wrote: »

Simplest solution would be something like this:

You can retain your full constituency vote for a maximum of seven years (1 presidential term) or perhaps 5 years (1 general election).
After you've been permanently abroad for 7 years or more, your registration is cancelled unless you return to Ireland.

After that period your constituency would transfer to a 3 seater or Seanad panel specifically for Irish abroad.

During presidential elections, these voters would get to elect 1 member of the council of state, but not the president.

They wouldn't retain voting rights for referenda or for local elections.


Something like that would be a fair solution to cover temporary migrants but would prevent a situation where people who have citizenship, but who maybe have no real interaction with Irish political life might end up influencing elections in totally weird ways, yet it would include the views of the long term diaspora in Irish politics.

The main concern has always been that you'd have vast numbers of Irish citizens who may have almos zero contact with Ireland voting.

To touch on your last point. In terms of Irish born citizens living abroad there are estimated to be about 800,000 hardly a vast number even if every single one voted which of course would not happen.
You otherwise make some interesting points on how to bring the Irish disapora into the political process. Peraonally I am simply in favor of there being a specific constituency where Irish born citizens living abroad vote into. Lets say for arguments sake it is a 3 seater. So that way their voice is there and can be part of the process in a fair way I believe. I would also allow Irish born citizens living abroad the vote in presidential elections.

Ozymandius2011

I remain opposed to this suggestion. The main argument seems to be that most other countries in Europe allow it. I'm sorry but in the 1930's most European countries were under the jackboot of Fascism/Stainism. That doesn't make it right. It's easy for other countries to allow for this as their Diaspora is not so large and has less potential to swing elections. Our Diaspora is almost the population of Germany. As such there is potential for the outcome of elections here to be swung so drastically that an extremely unpopular govt could win re-election owing to expatriots losing touch with political/economic circumstances back home.

munchkin_utd

Ozymandius2011 wrote: »

<snip>. Our Diaspora is almost the population of Germany. As such there is potential for the outcome of elections here to be swung so drastically that an extremely unpopular govt could win re-election owing to expatriots losing touch with political/economic circumstances back home.

the reason given from the last constitutional commision was that ONE single vote could swing an election - so folks abroad should not be able to alter the result with a single vote.
And they shouldnt be able to alter the vote because when they leave the shores.... errrr ??
What exactly happens when someone leaves the shores? Are they less in touch with the reality than most people on the ground.

Bear in mind, there is no intellegence test for people living in Ireland to get the vote. Theres old fogies who vote for who their dad voted for. Thats the limit of their political wisdom.
Theres others who put candidates up the top of the list because they live nearby, they saw him at a funeral or he shook their hand on the rounds of the locality. So again, what a fantasticly analytical way of choosing who to vote for!

So my single vote from abroad might detrimentally cause the end of the political system in Ireland because I am stupid/ out of touch or whatever YET someone local whose vote/ preference is cast/ influenced because of a candidates funeral attendance is a perfect system that must not be altered?

Mad stuff altogether.

oh, and re "population of germany" getting the vote ....
90 million people did not emigrate from ireland in the past 7 years so thats just an absurd figure.
Ireland has a large (and fertile!) emmigrant population so the masses of 2nd generation passport holding irish is something - BUT a system like germany where only folks who have lived for an extended period in the country are entitled to vote would lead to only a miniscule fraction of irish citizens born abroad getting the vote.
Limiting it to a limited period of postal vote of newly departed emmigrants would be even more effective in limiting numbers to those with a fresh working knowledge of the current political setup and issues.

BTW, Civil servants posted abroad KEEP THE VOTE, even ones in USA and beyond who cannot get live RTE to properly stay in touch with current affairs - so that precident alone opens the door to allowing people who are newly departed to stay on the register with a postal vote.

Solair

I don't really see how a temporary (5-7 year) remote vote would be a problem. It would cover most situations where someone was a temporary migrant.

I can't really see any issue with providing a couple of senators electable by the long-term diaspora either. Surely it would be a positive thing to engage them in the system even if they didn't have voting rights equivalent to a recent emigrant / resident.

The only thing I would say though is you'd need to ensure that the cost of running elections didn't out weigh any benefit.

I certainly think the current situation is ridiculous where someone is basically disenfranchised (unless they're a diplomat or other civil servant hanger-on type etc) if they exercise their *RIGHT* to work elsewhere in the EU, for example.

If I were to say migrate to France, I wouldn't get French voting rights for at least 5 years (other than Local / European Parliament Elections) So, I should retain Irish voting rights until that happens.

All our current system does is cut people off from their voting rights if they decide to work abroad for a couple of years, which is absolutely ridiculous.

Providing voting rights to long-term expats who live abroad is a different story entirely.

On a slightly elated point too, I think there are way too many Irish people going "home" to their mammy/daddy's place of residence to vote, long after they've permanently migrated to a different part of the country.

I know quite a few people in their 20s and 30s who have lived in Cork or Dublin for years who still vote in places like Kerry or Tipperary. What exactly do these people think their involvement with local politics in their "home" constituencies is? and why are they entirely opting out of democracy in the cities they've moved to?

Seems a bit daft and it should be blocked by the electoral register system.

I have no problem with students or people temporarily away from home voting at home, but I have a major issue with this notion of heading back to some rural area to cast a vote that you're really not entitled to while basically opting out of society in the area you now live.

Again, I think a maximum time limit cut off should apply and you should have to vote where you really live, not in your ancestral home. It completely distorts local democracy.

I would also wonder how many people are registered (and cast votes) in multiple constituencies... The electoral register in Ireland and also in the UK is totally open to abuse like that. It should be a single central database not umpteen different disconnected databases controlled by local authorities.

We should really do a re-registration process at the next census to create a proper electoral register that actually has no holes in it. Just include a form (to be returned in a sealed envelope) with the census and/or allow people to register online (once only) using a unique code provided on that form.

munchkin_utd

Solair wrote: »

<snip>

On a slightly elated point too, I think there are way too many Irish people going "home" to their mammy/daddy's place of residence to vote, long after they've permanently migrated to a different part of the country.

I know quite a few people in their 20s and 30s who have lived in Cork or Dublin for years who still vote in places like Kerry or Tipperary. What exactly do these people think their involvement with local politics in their "home" constituencies is? and why are they entirely opting out of democracy in the cities they've moved to?

Seems a bit daft and it should be blocked by the electoral register system.

I have no problem with students or people temporarily away from home voting at home, but I have a major issue with this notion of heading back to some rural area to cast a vote that you're really not entitled to while basically opting out of society in the area you now live.

Again, I think a maximum time limit cut off should apply and you should have to vote where you really live, not in your ancestral home. It completely distorts local democracy.

see, thats a very relevant point.

The vote for those abroad, even in the most limited way, was rejected outright by the constitutional commission because even ONE vote may decide an election.

As you have said, and I have also made the point before, the CURRENT reality is that theres votes being cast by people not living in a certain area which are deciding close elections, and theres MISSING votes in urban areas from people living there for decades who still vote down the country.

Its frustrating to see them state as a matter of fact that the system is perfect as it is, so perfect that a single vote from abroad will skew a result - when basically every past election result and even the nr of TDs per constituency is already skewed by an electoral register filled with people not actually living where they are registered to vote.

A limited number of people from abroad casting a vote is not going to skew elections any worse than they currently are through inaccurate electoral registers.

Feathers

Ozymandius2011 wrote: »

I remain opposed to this suggestion. The main argument seems to be that most other countries in Europe allow it. I'm sorry but in the 1930's most European countries were under the jackboot of Fascism/Stainism. That doesn't make it right. It's easy for other countries to allow for this as their Diaspora is not so large and has less potential to swing elections. Our Diaspora is almost the population of Germany.

The main argument for bringing it in isn't because other European countries are doing it; this is the counter argument given against, ironically, the rest of your post — that it would open the door to an 80m strong diaspora vote.

The reason other European countries are pointed to as examples is to show that you can successfully limit the impact of giving citizens abroad the vote by limiting the number of seats they can affect (like France) and/or tying the franchise to past residency of some duration (like Germany).

In terms of arguments for giving voting rights to those abroad, the main one is that they may not be aboard by choice (which is a fair analysis, when the government policy has again recently been "We can't all live on a small island"), or that people may be abroad temporarily — for study for a couple of years, or even for a meeting or conference for businessmen (bringing skills back into the country or bringing money into the country, respectively).

For both groups, limiting their involvement is decreasing their likelihood of returning.