Voting Rights For Irish Born Living Abroad

eire4

Ireland is the only country in the EU currently which denies citizens born at home but living abroad the right to vote. Personally I think we need to fully include our fellow Irish all over the world to help in rebuilding our country and that includes allowing full participation in elections.We could quite easily form a few regional constituencies to represent those living abroad and incorporate them within the Dail with voting via embassies and consulates. It is all very well for the Irish government to be looking to Irish expats abroad for investment and economic aid but the current Irish government attitude of put up and then shut up is wrong and does not help us as a country.


Irish election is only for

the Irish living in Ireland, leaving out expatriates everywhere







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Candidates for the presidency of Ireland recently took part in a radio debate. AP photo/Julien Behal-pa
By Steven Lydon

Steven Lydon is a recently-disenfranchised Irish PhD candidate in German Philosophy at Harvard University.

The upcoming presidential election has once again drawn international attention to Ireland, but this time in a more positive light.
This is in large part due to the exciting nature of the contest: among the candidates are Michael D. Higgins, a gifted orator, poet, and social activist; David Norris, the charismatic flag-bearer of James Joyce and gay-rights; and Martin McGuinness, former IRA leader and principle orchestrator of the peace process in Northern Ireland, draw the bulk of media attention.
But the presidential campaign has also thrown some light on an issue of increasing importance: the voting rights of Irish citizens abroad.
Under Irish electoral law Irish citizens cannot cast a ballot if they live outside of Ireland. If you attempt to vote, you've committed electoral fraud and could face two years in prison.
This is no insignificant fact given that at least 60,000 Irish citizens have emigrated in the last three years, in large part due to the economic catastrophe that took place under the former Fíanna Fáil-led government.
According to the Central Statistics Office (CSO) emigration mushroomed by 81% in the period from 2006-2010, bringing net outward migration from Ireland to its highest level since the late 1980s. An estimated 3.1 million Irish passport holders live abroad, 800,000 of whom are Irish-born.
"As an Irish citizen abroad, I neither have the right to vote in my adopted country nor the country of which I am a citizen. I have effectively been removed from democracy," said Tim Mac An Airchinnigh, an Irish emigrant living in France. "The Irish government is terrified of giving its emigrants the vote precisely because those emigrants have such a vested interest in voting. This is the real human fallout of the current system's immense failures, and no government wants (to give) such people access to democracy. They know too well the answer they'll get."
Hugh McCafferty has been living in Japan for two years. "I intend to return to Ireland in July 2012. By that time, I will have missed a general election (2011), a presidential election (2011), and a referendum (2009, Lisbon II). I will return to a country very different to the one I left and a political landscape that I was given no opportunity to shape," he said. "If Ireland wants to attract its best and brightest back home, it must give them some stock in Irish society and allow them to remain engaged meaningfully in political and social affairs."
This situation is becoming ever more unusual in an international context. The International Institute for Democracy and Electoral Assistance (IIDEA) reports that a total of 115 countries provide their citizens with voting rights in national elections to varying degrees, including Germany, Spain, France, and Australia.
The Irish president cannot constitutionally implement change in this area. In terms of political power, it is a limited, largely symbolic office. However, presidents can and do call attention to specific political issues, making use of the platform afforded them. Over the course of the current campaign, candidates have commented on the issue during speeches abroad.
Higgins is the only candidate to support general election voting reform. He suggested in a recent speech to Irish emigrés in London that “one formula that I believe is worthy of consideration is that those who were on the electoral register, or would be entitled to be on it, should be able to retain the right to vote in some, or all, elections for a specified period, perhaps five to 10 years.”
Norris has come out in favor of emigrant voting rights, but only in presidential elections.
His stance on the issue of general elections is less clear, claiming that "the old saying of 'no representation without taxation' may apply."
Norris's position on this issue is unusual, as it is one normally voiced by conservative commentators,who invert the rallying cry of 18th century American revolutionaries. However, the argument is seriously undermined by the fact that no other nation links expat voting with expat taxation.
The U.S . is the only developed nation that requires its citizens abroad to pay taxes on money earned abroad, but it required the payment of taxation on foreign-earned income long before it granted voting rights to expats, and voting is not conditional on the payment of taxes. Likewise, the payment of taxation is not required for voting rights for Irish residents.
Some object to emigrant voting because they fear that voters who live in Ireland would be outnumbered by the number of people who would be eligible to vote from abroad. However, most proponents of emigrant voting limit their proposals to only Irish-born people living abroad. Furthermore, international experience would suggest that only a small proportion of those would be interested in voting.
Others suggest that Irish people abroad quickly lose touch with the country, and can’t stay informed enough to vote responsibly. But that argument is weakened by the numerous news sources available online. Indeed, voters within the country are not required to demonstrate their knowledge of Irish affairs.
Few are willing to take a concrete stance on this issue in the Dáil, Ireland's parliament. The Minister of Agriculture Simon Coveney is an exception. During the last election campaign he is on record as saying that the exclusion of recent Irish emigrants from the general election was “obscene,” and said his position had not changed since becoming a minister.
However, he also noted that the legal advice received on emigrant voting “hasn’t been overly positive to date. If extending the franchise to expats requires a constitutional referendum, that could not happen until next year at the earliest." No consitutional referendum on the issue is currently scheduled.

the groutch

If you abandon your homeland, why should you have the right to say how it's run?

Sunnyisland

Some People who become emigrants due so by necessity rather than it being a career choice; if they still lived in Ireland they probably would be on the Live Register rather than in a job & paying taxes.

One of the biggest issues I can see is the position of Northern Ireland, Should Irish citizens in NI be entitled to vote here it would be a whole new ball game in the Irish political scene,That is a big question that would come out in a debate on this and why previous governments have failed to address it in any meaning full way.

Sulmac

realies wrote: »

One of the biggest issues I can see is the position of Northern Ireland, Should Irish citizens in NI be entitled to vote here it would be a whole new ball game in the Irish political scene,That is a big question that would come out in a debate on this and why previous governments have failed to address it in any meaning full way.

This is the biggest issue I can see as well. There are around 400,000 Irish passport holders in NI, if I recall correctly (and many more entitled to one, but that's another matter). How many of those would actually vote, I don't know. According to Peter Geoghegan, there are around three million people with Irish passports outside (the Republic of) Ireland. This is around the same number as the entire population entitled to vote within the state.

One solution would be to impose time limits like some other countries do - you can only vote for so many years after you've stopped living in the state (the UK, Denmark, Australia, Canada and New Zealand are examples of this). This would exclude people who have Irish passports but have never lived within the jurisdiction.

Another issue is how to treat their votes. Do they vote in the constituency they last lived in (which would be an absolute administrative nightmare), or should there be a separate expatriate constituency with a fixed number of seats regardless of the number entitled to vote in it? The Italian lower house has 12 seats (out of 630) elected by emigrants, for example.

Lapsed Catholic

Surely one should live in , contribute to and pay taxes in the country in which they wish to cast their vote.

I have a relative in the US for the last 60 years. They have been home to Ireland twice, yet they are an Irish citizen. Should they have a vote in how the country is run? Should second generation Irish from UK, Aus, NZ etc have a vote here? What if FF had been returned to power because of the green tinted spectacles worn by many expats and their successors?

eire4

Sulmac wrote: »

This is the biggest issue I can see as well. There are around 400,000 Irish passport holders in NI, if I recall correctly (and many more entitled to one, but that's another matter). How many of those would actually vote, I don't know. According to Peter Geoghegan, there are around three million people with Irish passports outside (the Republic of) Ireland. This is around the same number as the entire population entitled to vote within the state.

One solution would be to impose time limits like some other countries do - you can only vote for so many years after you've stopped living in the state (the UK, Denmark, Australia, Canada and New Zealand are examples of this). This would exclude people who have Irish passports but have never lived within the jurisdiction.

Another issue is how to treat their votes. Do they vote in the constituency they last lived in (which would be an absolute administrative nightmare), or should there be a separate expatriate constituency with a fixed number of seats regardless of the number entitled to vote in it? The Italian lower house has 12 seats (out of 630) elected by emigrants, for example.

The suggestion is to give the right to vote to Irish born citizens. Born being the key word. So in terms of Irish people outside the Island of Ireland there are something in the region of 800,000 Irish born citizens living outside the island of Ireland.

One of the ideas in terms of represetation in the Dail is to set up a few regional constituencies and this is where those living outside Ireland would vote using embassies and consulates to actually cast votes.

eire4

Lapsed Catholic wrote: »

Surely one should live in , contribute to and pay taxes in the country in which they wish to cast their vote.

I have a relative in the US for the last 60 years. They have been home to Ireland twice, yet they are an Irish citizen. Should they have a vote in how the country is run? Should second generation Irish from UK, Aus, NZ etc have a vote here? What if FF had been returned to power because of the green tinted spectacles worn by many expats and their successors?

Only Irish born citizens would have a vote. That is currently estimated to be about 800,000. The old tax argument is very common. But this is undermined by the fact that no other nation links home born citizens living abroad being able to vote with taxation. Currently most developed nations including the whole EU outside Ireland allow emigrant voting. In reality the no taxation argument is an argument that calls for a restriction on democracy. We don't say the poor cannot vote. They have the same rights to vote as the most wealthy do. We do not exclude those who gain more in benefits then they pay in taxes from voting.

Lets also not forget that not allowing Irish born emigrants to vote is something that the establishment that got us in the mess we are in want because clearly the majority of those who have or will leave are those struggling economically so obviously it is good for those politicans to get rid of these people so they can't vote them out.

Ireland also has long and very aggressively looked to tap it's emigrant citizens for direct and indirect economoic aid, investment etc. The current model seems to be one of looking for help from emigrants but then they must shut up. Not a good model. Right now Ireland has a highly loyal diaspora that is very influential in getting foreign investment into Ireland, networking, opeining new markets etc all in Irelands favour. In fact considering it's size and the size of ireland itself I would say our dispora has been very effective in helping Ireland. I think by encouraging the Irish born living abroad to have a greater role in the country can be a benefit to the country by encouraging further willingness to work on behalf and for the benefit of Ireland.

Sunnyisland

eire4 wrote: »

The suggestion is to give the right to vote to Irish born citizens. Born being the key word. So in terms of Irish people outside the Island of Ireland there are something in the region of 800,000 Irish born citizens living outside the island of Ireland.

One of the ideas in terms of represetation in the Dail is to set up a few regional constituencies and this is where those living outside Ireland would vote using embassies and consulates to actually cast votes.

In the GFA the Constitution of Ireland was amended so that people born in Northern Ireland are entitled to be Irish citizens on the same basis as people from any other part of the island of Ireland. This is where the problems will arise imo.

fat__tony

the groutch wrote: »

If you abandon your homeland, why should you have the right to say how it's run?

'Abandon your homeland'?

What kind of ****ing stupid statement is that?

Tell me, are the thousands of Irish people who were forced abroad due the jobs crisis, abandoning their homeland?

You tool.

Lapsed Catholic

As some one who lived abroad for 10 years, and susequently returned, I certainly don't feel that I abandoned my country.

Originally Posted by eire4
The suggestion is to give the right to vote to Irish born citizens. Born being the key word

My eldest son was born overseas. He has dual citizenship. He is as Irish as I am. He plays hurling, I played rugby. He has an Irish accent, an Irish soul, an Irish attitude. If he decides to emigrate from Ireland, not his birthplace, he will be prevented from voting here under these proposals. The Irish born children of immigrants will be allowed to vote here, despite their possible return to the country of birth of their parents, they may never speak Irish or English, they will be Irish only through an accident of birth.

I am against expat votes, however I am open to debate. But where does one make the cut off point?

Sulmac

eire4 wrote: »

The suggestion is to give the right to vote to Irish born citizens. Born being the key word. So in terms of Irish people outside the Island of Ireland there are something in the region of 800,000 Irish born citizens living outside the island of Ireland.

I wouldn't agree with that. It would have it as Irish citizens who have lived in (the Republic of) Ireland that get the vote for 'x' number of years after leaving. Otherwise you're discriminating against those who have not been Irish citizens from birth.

To allow all Irish 'born' citizens to vote would include everyone in Northern Ireland and could severely distort everything as well. Of course, any Irish citizen born in Northern Ireland, who lives in the Republic, and then moves on, would be entitled along the same lines as those who were born in the Republic (even if they move back to Northern Ireland).

One of the ideas in terms of represetation in the Dail is to set up a few regional constituencies and this is where those living outside Ireland would vote using embassies and consulates to actually cast votes.

Postal voting or even internet voting could be examined as well as embassy/consulate voting. France has experimented with online voting for some of its citizens abroad.

eire4

Some countries have time limits for the voting rights of their citizens living abroad. Personally I think this is very arbitrary and fundamentally I think that an Irish born citizen should always be entitled to vote and have a voice in our country.

For example Mexico is a country that has seen many citizens living outside the state play a much more active role in helping to fund and support projects back in their own couuntry since they gave the right to vote to emigrants.

Our own government in it's smart economic strategy seeks emigrants to play a vital role and both the Taoiseach and President McAleese have repeatedly made statements praising our emigrants and the leading role they are playing in the attempt to rebuild our country. So why not give these emigrants and and maybe even encourage a wider cross section of emigrants to play a big role in helping the country economically. As I said before right now the Irish government policy is one of put up the money and then shut up.
Surely a more positive outlook would be full participation and actually encourgaing our great disapora to fully participate in the Ireland of today and tomorrow.

eire4

the groutch wrote: »

If you abandon your homeland, why should you have the right to say how it's run?

That is sad that you would make such a pejorative statement like that. There are a great many people who have left Ireland through no fault of their own. There are many Irish who as emigrants have greatly helped our country and their contribution deserves great praise.
For a country like ours with such a sad and often tragic history when it comes to emigration I think the strength and determination of so many Irish to become a success in so many places around the world deserves praise.

walrusgumble

the groutch wrote: »

If you abandon your homeland, why should you have the right to say how it's run?

I would not call the 1950's -1980's and the present time as a time where the Irish have abandoned their homeland. You sound like the Bull McCabe from the Field.

I would agree that Irish born and bred Citizens who have immigrated should at least be allowed to vote for the Presidential Elections. I would not be keen on the elections for the Dáil, I would share some of your sentiment there, I suppose, but even then, I would not agree to a blanket ban.

Our Constitution since 1980's allows the Oireachtas to legislate to give some Non Irish Residents, in particular the "old enemy" the British the right to vote in the Dáil. So why should we disenfranchise some Irish emigrants, who clearly intend to return Ireland in the future (hopefully, in the lifetime of a government) We are very very very very very very very quick to suck up to our Irish diaspora in America when we want the big shots in Congress and the White House to listen to us, without many of whom Bill Clinton might not have had the time to pay an interest in the troubles. Our families relied on the money being sent home in the bad old times (that example ridicules the complains of Polish etc sending money to Poland etc)

walrusgumble

Sulmac wrote: »

I wouldn't agree with that. It would have it as Irish citizens who have lived in (the Republic of) Ireland that get the vote for 'x' number of years after leaving. Otherwise you're discriminating against those who have not been Irish citizens from birth.

As for Citizens, you mean the ISLAND of IRELAND. Our Citizenship Legislation and Our Constitution, despite GFA, does not distinguish between the North and South Jurisdictions with regard to who is a citizen or not. (of course actual sovereignty and territorial claim is another thing, but Constitutional wise, the old text was merely an aspiration)

Good point on the Naturalisation angle, (the only people who can be Irish without being born in Ireland) even then,as you point out below, you are discriminating our Northern Breathern who hold Irish Passports

Sulmac wrote: »

To allow all Irish 'born' citizens to vote would include everyone in Northern Ireland and could severely distort everything as well. Of course, any Irish citizen born in Northern Ireland, who lives in the Republic, and then moves on, would be entitled along the same lines as those who were born in the Republic (even if they move back to Northern Ireland).

I see what you are saying, but,

There would be SFA distortion if the franchise just extended to The Presidency, who, although only has powers for the 26 counties, is clearly the State Head of the Irish Nation also and she / he represents the Irish People both home and abroad. An extension of that to at least to Northerns and Irish Citizens who left the South 5 years ago should happen . See how it goes.

Even if it was the Dáil, it would be clear that it would only be to have a voice in the 26 counties. British Jurisdiction is in no way infringed so they (and they will complain - but its still absolute nonsense) have no excuses or complaints. Voting would not be mandatory and time limits as to registering will be set in the same way we who are born and bred in the south have to make sure we are registered on the ballot.

Sulmac wrote: »

Postal voting or even internet voting could be examined as well as embassy/consulate voting. France has experimented with online voting for some of its citizens abroad.

Agreed. But no doubt, the embassies would mess that up. A few people in the Donegal islands were told by the High Court years ago that they did not have an absolute Constitutional right to postal voting and to make sure that they get it.

walrusgumble

realies wrote: »

In the GFA the Constitution of Ireland was amended so that people born in Northern Ireland are entitled to be Irish citizens on the same basis as people from any other part of the island of Ireland. This is where the problems will arise imo.

There should be no problems there either. It would not effect British Sovereignty. It would only give those in NI, who wanted it, a voice in "Southern" issues. Britain would have NO right whatsoever to butt in. For them to argue the usual and valid point of loyalty and fidelity etc to the Crown or State, like any other citizen of a country (like our Article 9) would be utterly laughable considering the craic that went on for the last 40 years.

GFA only changed the Constitution regarding the Territorial claim, or more to the point, make it spell out what the Supreme Court had already said in 1990; that it was aspirational. That is Articles 2 and 3. Articles 2 and 3 said nothing about the right to citizenship, really. that can be found at Article 9.The Constitutional Change said nothing NEW about citizenship or altered the position already provided in 1956, bar outright entitlement.

Old
2. The national territory consists of the whole island of Ireland, its islands and the territorial seas.
3. Pending the re-integration of the national territory, and without prejudice to the right of the Parliament and Government established by this Constitution to exercise jurisdiction over the whole of that territory, the laws enacted by that Parliament shall have the like area and extent of application as the laws of Saorstát Éireann and the like extra-territorial effect.

New
2. It is the entitlement and birthright of every person born in the island of Ireland, which includes its islands and seas, to be part of the Irish nation. That is also the entitlement of all persons otherwise qualified in accordance with law to be citizens of Ireland. Furthermore, the Irish nation cherishes its special affinity with people of Irish ancestry living abroad who share its cultural identity and heritage.
3.1. It is the firm will of the Irish nation, in harmony and friendship, to unite all the people who share the territory of the island of Ireland, in all the diversity of their identities and traditions, recognising that a united Ireland shall be brought about only by peaceful means with the consent of a majority of the people, democratically expressed, in both jurisdictions in the island. Until then, the laws enacted by the Parliament established by this Constitution shall have the like area and extent of application as the laws enacted by the Parliament that existed immediately before the coming into operation of this Constitution.
3.2. Institutions with executive powers and functions that are shared between those jurisdictions may be established by their respective responsible authorities for stated purposes and may exercise powers and functions in respect of all or any part of the island.


Our Citizenship laws of 1956 -2004 are relevant.


But even if GFA did not come into being, the 1956 Act, provided a way for Northerners to be Irish Citizens.

If the were born on the "island of Ireland" they were automatically an Irish citizen if born
(a)on the island of Ireland before 6 December 1922, (Charlie Haughey's parents were Northerns, Frank Aiken was a Northerner, hardly going to call them British?)
(b)in the territory which currently comprises the Republic of Ireland,
(c)from the North on or after 6 December 1922 with a parent who was an Irish citizen at the time of birth (Mary McAleese's father was from Roscommon, so for the ignorant gob****es who taught she was British should really shut the **** up);

If you were born in Northern Ireland (and some how did not meet with the above) you at least had the right to apply to be a citizen, even if you were not automatically entitled as of birth (and applied retrospectively, as per old Section 6 and 7 of the 1956 Act) The 1956 Act was far more friendlier than the one in the 1930's which gave Northerns no rights. So that gets rid of any nonsense about people like Gerry Adams being a Brit before GFA.

GFA was a gesture, citizenship wise, an extremely significant gesture that Northern Born People could be Irish Citizens automatically (of course slightly changed on the island via Section 6A in 2004 Referendum), as oppose to the distinction between automatic and entitlement. The real significance of GFA to the North -South was the specific spelling out of the Boundaries, went had already happened in the Supreme Court in 1990. It was a sop/good will gesture to the Unionists (validly enough)

walrusgumble

realies wrote: »

Some People who become emigrants due so by necessity rather than it being a career choice; if they still lived in Ireland they probably would be on the Live Register rather than in a job & paying taxes.

One of the biggest issues I can see is the position of Northern Ireland, Should Irish citizens in NI be entitled to vote here it would be a whole new ball game in the Irish political scene,That is a big question that would come out in a debate on this and why previous governments have failed to address it in any meaning full way.

Ah, I doubt the partition brigade would want angry men from Lurgan and Belfast cribbing and crying over how the South does things (after all, what goes on in the Dáil won't effect the every day life of the 6 counties - and maybe even the well meaning non partitonist in the South won't want them butting in?) Unless FG and FF got their act together in the North (as FF had planned to do,much to the annoyance of both SDLP and SF -Partitionism in reverse) FG and FF won't want it as it hurts their turf and potential. It would not necessarily mean that SF would get more seats either though.

It would really tell us what are the true aspirations of the "Republican Party"

They should at least give the Presidency a test drive

Sulmac

walrusgumble wrote: »

There would be SFA distortion if the franchise just extended to The Presidency, who, although only has powers for the 26 counties, is clearly the State Head of the Irish Nation also and she / he represents the Irish People both home and abroad. An extension of that to at least to Northerns and Irish Citizens who left the South 5 years ago should happen . See how it goes.

Agree entirely about the presidency.

Even if it was the Dáil, it would be clear that it would only be to have a voice in the 26 counties. British Jurisdiction is in no way infringed so they (and they will complain - but its still absolute nonsense) have no excuses or complaints. Voting would not be mandatory and time limits as to registering will be set in the same way we who are born and bred in the south have to make sure we are registered on the ballot.

Well, if the vote for Dáil was extended to all Irish citizens, regardless of prior residency in the jurisdiction, then the only real way to do it is by having an emigrant/expatriate/citizens abroad constituency (of a fixed number of seats regardless of the size of those elected to vote). If you want to have them vote in a geographic constituency (Galway West, Dublin South, etc.), then it would have to be based on prior residency (I'm not 100% sure but I think New Zealand and the UK adopt this).

It all comes down to how you want to treat Irish citizens abroad - as equals based on prior residency, or by simply giving them a voice (and thus not have their votes treated equally as those resident in the state as their number of seats would be fixed).

Agreed. But no doubt, the embassies would mess that up. A few people in the Donegal islands were told by the High Court years ago that they did not have an absolute Constitutional right to postal voting and to make sure that they get it.

It's a complete joke when you consider some that countries allow every voter to use a postal ballot if they wish.

Sunnyisland

walrus gumbo wrote: »

Ah, I doubt the partition brigade would want angry men from Lurgan and Belfast cribbing and crying over how the South does things (after all, what goes on in the Dáil won't effect the every day life of the 6 counties - and maybe even the well meaning non partitonist in the South won't want them butting in?) Unless FG and FF got their act together in the North (as FF had planned to do,much to the annoyance of both SDLP and SF -Partitions in reverse) FG and FF won't want it as it hurts their turf and potential. It would not necessarily mean that SF would get more seats either though.

It would really tell us what are the true aspirations of the "Republican Party"

They should at least give the Presidency a test drive

Actually Imo it could hurt SF as SDLP & Alliance voters would certainly be voting for FG/FF .

padraignoone

There may be 3 referendums in Ireland in 2012. One on Europe's plans for fiscal union. As a ex-pat with every ambition to return home I want my vote; regardless of what issues the current political leaders have to face up to.

A petition entitled Irish Citizens: Support the call for Voting Rights for the Irish Living Abroad has been created to bring some weight to this issue.

To add your name to the petition click here:
http://www.change.org/petitions/irish-citizens-support-the-call-for-voting-rights-for-the-irish-living-abroad?share_id=fqeplAtaZa&

Please ask family and friends to sign up as well and spread the word.

Pádraig

eire4

Very happy to sign and support the demand for voting rights for Irish born citizens living abroad.

lunar.wire

My brother has been living in the US for about 6 years now. He has dual citizenship, but has lost touch with the day-to-day issues of the country. Despite the fact that he would vote on the same lines as me, neither of us believe he should have a vote here.

You should have to suffer the consequences of your vote.

It could be argued that the ex-pats might make more intelligent decisions than fools like me who have stayed in the country, but I would rather suffer the consequence of my neighbours bad vote than the bad vote of people thousands of miles away, who's lives are minimally effected by their choice.

eire4

lunar.wire wrote: »

My brother has been living in the US for about 6 years now. He has dual citizenship, but has lost touch with the day-to-day issues of the country. Despite the fact that he would vote on the same lines as me, neither of us believe he should have a vote here.

You should have to suffer the consequences of your vote.

It could be argued that the ex-pats might make more intelligent decisions than fools like me who have stayed in the country, but I would rather suffer the consequence of my neighbours bad vote than the bad vote of people thousands of miles away, who's lives are minimally effected by their choice.

So because your brother has lost touch then all Irish born citizens living abroad should lose the right to vote?

There are many people who have left Ireland and who follow events and whats going on very closely. Having said that I am sure there are many people living in Ireland who do not follow events and the issues of the day closely or at all. Should they lose their right to vote? Are we going to have some kind of test to show a level of competency with the issues of the day before someone can vote? Of course not. That would be ridiculous.I would also say there are many Irish born citiznes who live a long way from Ireland due to the incompetence and corruption rampant in Ireland. They certainly were greatly affected by the decisions of you and your neighbour. Your obviously entitled to your opinions but sadly Ireland is at odds with the entire rest of the EU and much of the world in denying Irish born citizens living abroad the right to vote.
Yet Ireland continues to extend the hand looking for it's ex pat community to help the country economically. Ireland needs to stop treating it's citizens living abroad with such disrepect. Ireland needs to recognise that due to the nature of emigration in modern Irish society we have seen large numbers of Irish born citizens who are very well educated leave the country and become very successful abroad. Ireland if it wants to tap into their skills and connections and really engage the whole Irish nation so to speak needs to bring these Irish citizens into the fold and give them a full role in the country and helping rebuild our country.

I firmly believe bringing Irish born citizens into the fold and giving them a voice and a role in the Ireland of today and tomorrow is something that will enhance our country greatly especially in these tough times when Ireland needs all the help it can get.

lunar.wire

eire4 wrote: »

So because your brother has lost touch then all Irish born citizens living abroad should lose the right to vote?

I think you probably know that is not what I am saying. The point regarding my brother is that not even he thinks he does not deserves a vote.
I realise these may be a sensitive issue to you, but my point is, as someone who is living here, that I want the voter to experience the consequences of their vote.

eire4 wrote: »

They certainly were greatly affected by the decisions of you and your neighbour.

I have suffered the consequences of my neighbours vote for many years as I didn't vote for the neo-lib policies of FF/FG. I didn't play gombeen politics. As we live in a majority rule situation, I reluctantly except that other people wanted those polices. For my part, I (unfortunately) voted for the Greens, since then I have realised that there is no representation that will represent my views. They will sing one song in opposition and a completely different one in government. However, I valued democracy (when we had it) and hope that we can get it back. I also still vote, despite not really seeing much point in it. I fully expect the person I vote for to betray their electorates too.

eire4 wrote: »

Ireland needs to recognise that due to the nature of emigration in modern Irish society we have seen large numbers of Irish born citizens who are very well educated leave the country and become very successful abroad. Ireland if it wants to tap into their skills and connections and really engage the whole Irish nation so to speak needs to bring these Irish citizens into the fold and give them a full role in the country and helping rebuild our country.

I firmly believe bringing Irish born citizens into the fold and giving them a voice and a role in the Ireland of today and tomorrow is something that will enhance our country greatly especially in these tough times when Ireland needs all the help it can get.

I disagree.
Firstly for the reason mentioned above, that ex-pats aren't directly effected by their vote.
Secondly, I don't agree with the the narrative of necessity for emigration. They are not refugees in the normal sense. It's unlikely that they would starve or be killed if they lived in Ireland. They may not be as fulfilled or as wealthy, but they could stay if they really wanted to. They could try and fix the country. Not every country has a default emigration policy.
I've heard a number of people say that they will come back when it's better. How do they think this will happen? Are we to have them vote so Ireland becomes less different than their host country?
Most of the stories from the people leaving are of "no prospects", or of a more satisfactory life in their host country - more money - more prospects, etc..... and fair play to them. Go for it. Have a nice time, make your money and come back when you want, but for me it is an anathema to give a vote to people who've decided to this.
I wouldn't expect it if I left (which I have thought about)
Thirdly, ex-pats who want help rebuild the country need avenues to do so. Voting is but one option. If they care about Ireland other ways could be created. For instance, they could support volunteer groups & charities in Ireland.... or whatever - haven't thought much about it, but there must be hundreds of ways they could help.
Essentially, if the nation-state idea ever made any sense, then surely it is people within the state that need to decide how they want to live, not those without. I'd be a lot more inclined toward giving immigrants a vote instead.
I know you my not like that view.
As stated earlier, ex-pats (such as my brother), may even vote in lines that I agree with. For instance they might not be as easily fooled to change a referendum vote from No to Yes for spurious reasoning like "Jobs, Economy and a Stronger Europe", but I still would not like to see ex-pats get a vote.

Ireland is not only and idea it's a place.

(edit)
However, I think that ex-pats are a powerful lobby group and that our media are probably behind that idea. Our “leaders” will probably enact a law in these lines in the coming years. Probably after becoming a state of the United States Of Europe.

eire4

lunar.wire wrote: »

I think you probably know that is not what I am saying. The point regarding my brother is that not even he thinks he does not deserves a vote.
I realise these may be a sensitive issue to you, but my point is, as someone who is living here, that I want the voter to experience the consequences of their vote.


I have suffered the consequences of my neighbours vote for many years as I didn't vote for the neo-lib policies of FF/FG. I didn't play gombeen politics. As we live in a majority rule situation, I reluctantly except that other people wanted those polices. For my part, I (unfortunately) voted for the Greens, since then I have realised that there is no representation that will represent my views. They will sing one song in opposition and a completely different one in government. However, I valued democracy (when we had it) and hope that we can get it back. I also still vote, despite not really seeing much point in it. I fully expect the person I vote for to betray their electorates too.


I disagree.
Firstly for the reason mentioned above, that ex-pats aren't directly effected by their vote.
Secondly, I don't agree with the the narrative of necessity for emigration. They are not refugees in the normal sense. It's unlikely that they would starve or be killed if they lived in Ireland. They may not be as fulfilled or as wealthy, but they could stay if they really wanted to. They could try and fix the country. Not every country has a default emigration policy.
I've heard a number of people say that they will come back when it's better. How do they think this will happen? Are we to have them vote so Ireland becomes less different than their host country?
Most of the stories from the people leaving are of "no prospects", or of a more satisfactory life in their host country - more money - more prospects, etc..... and fair play to them. Go for it. Have a nice time, make your money and come back when you want, but for me it is an anathema to give a vote to people who've decided to this.
I wouldn't expect it if I left (which I have thought about)
Thirdly, ex-pats who want help rebuild the country need avenues to do so. Voting is but one option. If they care about Ireland other ways could be created. For instance, they could support volunteer groups & charities in Ireland.... or whatever - haven't thought much about it, but there must be hundreds of ways they could help.
Essentially, if the nation-state idea ever made any sense, then surely it is people within the state that need to decide how they want to live, not those without. I'd be a lot more inclined toward giving immigrants a vote instead.
I know you my not like that view.
As stated earlier, ex-pats (such as my brother), may even vote in lines that I agree with. For instance they might not be as easily fooled to change a referendum vote from No to Yes for spurious reasoning like "Jobs, Economy and a Stronger Europe", but I still would not like to see ex-pats get a vote.

Ireland is not only and idea it's a place.

(edit)
However, I think that ex-pats are a powerful lobby group and that our media are probably behind that idea. Our “leaders” will probably enact a law in these lines in the coming years. Probably after becoming a state of the United States Of Europe.

Well we are obviously just going to disagree about Irish born citizens living abroad having the right to vote and all I know about your brother is what you wrote.You meant something different then what you wrote fair enough given you changed what you wrote to clarify.
Personally I see it as a tremendous opportunity for Ireland. Even more so in the case of Ireland as we as a country have had emmigration play such a massive role in our society for a long time now. The result of which is we have very significant representation in many very important corners of the world. This is a largely unused resource. I say open our arms to our diaspora accept them as equals and bring them fully into the fold and encourage them to buy into building a new and properous Ireland.

I do not want to get into a nasty name called sitaution but I must call you up on calling ex pats a "lobby" group. That is very insulting and beneath the issue. They are not a "lobby" group. They are Irish men and women just like you who are simply asking to be treated properly and given the right to vote just like those in every other EU country and througout much of the world.

MadsL

Disturbed by all this talk of 'born'...do naturalised Irish citizens working overseas not get a vote despite having paid at least 7 years tax and about a grand to process their citizenship. Or is there a two-tier citizenship??

Cavehill Red

No representation without taxation!

SEEMagazine

I was in Ireland for the Presidential Elections, had my voting card, but because I wasn't going to be around for the following years I felt it wasn't my place to vote.

That was the first election/referendum I didn't vote in since I turned 18.

eire4

Cavehill Red wrote: »

No representation without taxation!

Right so no voting for the poor and others who for various reasons are outside the tax net.

No other EU country links voting rights to payment of taxation.

Cavehill Red

eire4 wrote: »

Right so no voting for the poor and others who for various reasons are outside the tax net.

No other EU country links voting rights to payment of taxation.

Please identify for me someone in Ireland who pays zero tax. There aren't any.
This is Ireland. We are, despite rumours to the contrary, a sovereign nation. What other countries do is not of concern.
The USA demands tax returns from all its overseas citizens in return for the right to suffrage. I see no reason why Irish ex-pats should enjoy influence over somewhere they do not live without, as residents do, paying taxes towards the state.

MadsL

Cavehill Red wrote: »

Please identify for me someone in Ireland who pays zero tax. There aren't any.
This is Ireland. We are, despite rumours to the contrary, a sovereign nation. What other countries do is not of concern.
The USA demands tax returns from all its overseas citizens in return for the right to suffrage. I see no reason why Irish ex-pats should enjoy influence over somewhere they do not live without, as residents do, paying taxes towards the state.

Yep, agreed.
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=76391492

jank

Cavehill Red wrote: »

No representation without taxation!

nnnnmmmmggghhhhhh!!:mad::mad::mad:

It is NOT "No representation without taxation".
It is actually No Taxation without representation. They mean very different things. I have said this about 10 times on this board yet I see people post the wrong version time and time again!! FFS, get it right first of all.


Right, anyway as I pay tax in Ireland does that mean I should get a vote. Is taxation equating ones right to vote? What about people who live off the government, should they be given a right to vote, should we means test someones right to vote? Should we be really looking back instead of forward? Should we go back to the Victorian era where only men of property had a vote, or the Roman era where men who owned land were allowed a vote?

jank

Cavehill Red wrote: »

Please identify for me someone in Ireland who pays zero tax. There aren't any.
This is Ireland. We are, despite rumours to the contrary, a sovereign nation. What other countries do is not of concern.
The USA demands tax returns from all its overseas citizens in return for the right to suffrage. I see no reason why Irish ex-pats should enjoy influence over somewhere they do not live without, as residents do, paying taxes towards the state.

Again, this has been ill quoted and bent out of context to death. Only Americans who earn more than $92,000 must submit a tax return. The USA is the ONLY country in the world requireing their citizens to do this. This has more to do with rich americans lving in places like Mexico and Bermuda with huge incomes and Oil workers in the Gulf. It has nothing to do with a civic trade off.

All other OECD countries offer votes to its citizens abroad, apart from Ireland. Are they all wrong?

Please try again!

Cavehill Red

Dear Jank,
You are twice the fool.
Firstly, I deliberately inverted the statement to counter demands from expats to have representation without taxation. That appears to have been obvious to all but you.
Secondly, you're wrong about the income threshold for US citizens abroad. All must make returns, even if zero returns. I know because I have US citizens in my immediate family who have to do so every year in order to vote for Obama.
Thanks for playing.

jank

Really? My friend must be lying to me then so when he voted for Obama from Australia and hasnt submitted a tax return in about 6 years even though he probably should have. My point seems lost on your that the aim of this tax return is tax not a "buy your vote" scheme that you think its about.

Posting up false statements then "claiming" it was a joke and that it was intentional is a nice ploy alright

I see you are on the WUM trail and have no interest to discuss this topic so I will leave you go on your way.

Cavehill Red

jank wrote: »

Really? My friend must be lying to me then so when he voted for Obama from Australia and hasnt submitted a tax return in about 6 years even though he probably should have. My point seems lost on your that the aim of this tax return is tax not a "buy your vote" scheme that you think its about.

Posting up false statements then "claiming" it was a joke and that it was intentional is a nice ploy alright

I see you are on the WUM trail and have no interest to discuss this topic so I will leave you go on your way.

I won't rise to trolling. I posted no false statement. I inverted a well-known cliche to make my point - if you don't pay taxes to this country you don't deserve to vote to influence its future. You're the only person apparently incapable of understanding this.
And yes, your friend must be lying.
I have no idea what a WUM trail is, and can only assume it's as fantastical as your imaginary friend and your paranoiac incapacity to understand rhetorical inversion.
Thanks for playing.

southsiderosie

Cavehill Read and jank, cool it. Not only are the two of you disturbing the peace, but both of you are wrong. If you want a mindbending experience, visit www.irs.gov. In the meantime, cut it out; you're destroying the thread.

SSR

csm

Cavehill Red wrote: »

if you don't pay taxes to this country you don't deserve to vote to influence its future

So what if you're a net drain on the country's resources? What if you're on the dole and the only tax you pay is consumer-related (fuel, alcohol, VAT, etc)? Should you be denied the vote then? Because I live abroad yet I pay those taxes any time I come home.

Also, for the person saying you should only vote if you live with the consequences of your vote. I live with the consequences of successive FF governments every day I'm not back in Ireland. Especially this week when I can't get back for my grandfather's impending funeral.

What is the harm in having one or two TDs for ex-pats, thereby diluting the power of their vote? Or allowing them to vote for the president, which has nothing to do with the day-to-day running of the country and everything to do with the image of Ireland in a global context?

I agree that those not born in or naturalized to Ireland should not get a vote, we don't want important decisions made by millions of third-generation Americans, but you can't exclude the entire diaspora. There has to be a way to allow them to have some say in how their homeland is run.

jank

Cavehill Red wrote: »

I won't rise to trolling. I posted no false statement. I inverted a well-known cliche to make my point - if you don't pay taxes to this country you don't deserve to vote to influence its future. You're the only person apparently incapable of understanding this.
And yes, your friend must be lying.
I have no idea what a WUM trail is, and can only assume it's as fantastical as your imaginary friend and your paranoiac incapacity to understand rhetorical inversion.
Thanks for playing.

How about discussing the topic without resorting to abuse?
Regarding the part in bold, I pay taxes in Ireland, there fore you agree that I should have a vote, right?

Also by "inverting" that cliche you destroy the argument of what that cliché actually is. The premise in on democracy first not taxation you on the other hand equate taxation first then democracy which opens a whole can of worms which I raised which you have yet to address at all.

Cavehill Red

Robinson set a - to my mind somewhat unconstitutional - position for the presidency vis-a-vis ex-pats. In that context, and its continuation and extension towards the citizens of occupied Ireland by her successor, and the fact that the presidency is largely ceremonial, I could potentially be persuaded that ex-patriates might be permitted a vote on the presidency.

However, it is notable that worldwide the number of potential Irish passport holders is a number of factors greater than the population of the Republic. To have policy in Ireland set by those who do not live here is not democratic at all, which is why I oppose voting in Oireachtas elections for those who do not live here. So fundamentally, I disagree with you. As an Irish citizen AND Irish resident, I do not want people abroad having any say in how the country is run if they are not at least prepared to contribute in terms of taxation.

I appreciate your appeal to emotion in relation to your grandfather. That can't be pleasant. Nevertheless, you were not exiled. You chose to leave, for presumably your own good reasons. In matters as diverse as attending your relative's funeral, or voting, you presumably were aware of the potential ramifications before you chose to depart these shores.

jank

csm wrote: »

So what if you're a net drain on the country's resources? What if you're on the dole and the only tax you pay is consumer-related (fuel, alcohol, VAT, etc)? Should you be denied the vote then? Because I live abroad yet I pay those taxes any time I come home.

Also, for the person saying you should only vote if you live with the consequences of your vote. I live with the consequences of successive FF governments every day I'm not back in Ireland. Especially this week when I can't get back for my grandfather's impending funeral.

What is the harm in having one or two TDs for ex-pats, thereby diluting the power of their vote? Or allowing them to vote for the president, which has nothing to do with the day-to-day running of the country and everything to do with the image of Ireland in a global context?

I agree that those not born in or naturalized to Ireland should not get a vote, we don't want important decisions made by millions of third-generation Americans, but you can't exclude the entire diaspora. There has to be a way to allow them to have some say in how their homeland is run.

Thats the usual red herring that pops out ad finem when this topic is raised. "Sure why should I let some douche bag yank have a vote when he is 1/26th Irish and hasnt a clue about the place..."
Seriously, nobody is saying that we should let the entire 60+ million Irish Diaspora have a vote so lets get that one out of the way first!

Cavehill Red

jank wrote: »

How about discussing the topic without resorting to abuse?

Pot, kettle, etc.

jank wrote: »

Regarding the part in bold, I pay taxes in Ireland, there fore you agree that I should have a vote, right?

Should anyone who crosses the border from Newry to buy petrol or smokes be entitled to a vote? What about those visiting from Holyhead on the ferry for a day? Or someone transiting through Shannon? Clearly this is a mockery of the concept of holding a meaningful stake in the society in which you claim suffrage. Such a meaningful stake could only be attained by either being a permanent part of this society as a resident, or emulating that status by filing a full tax return.

jank wrote: »

Also by "inverting" that cliche you destroy the argument of what that cliché actually is.

Slowly, light dawns. That's exactly what I was doing. The tea party (original version) resented being taxed without being represented. I resent the concept of ex-pats being represented without being taxed. This really needn't to have been spelled out, and didn't have to be for anyone else.

jank wrote: »

The premise in on democracy first not taxation you on the other hand equate taxation first then democracy which opens a whole can of worms which I raised which you have yet to address at all.

This sentence(s?) descends into gibberish rather quickly. Can you rephrase it, or punctuate it, so that what you mean to say is clear?

Cavehill Red

jank wrote: »

Thats the usual red herring that pops out ad finem when this topic is raised. "Sure why should I let some douche bag yank have a vote when he is 1/26th Irish and hasnt a clue about the place..."
Seriously, nobody is saying that we should let the entire 60+ million Irish Diaspora have a vote so lets get that one out of the way first!

Unlike Britain, which distinguishes a number of levels or statuses of citizenship/subjectship, Ireland has only one. Therefore anyone entitled to a passport is as Irish as anyone else, place of birth, ethnicity, etc all being irrelevant if the criteria cited on the DFA website is achieved.
Now, I've asked the DFA more than once for two pieces of data, neither of which they were able to provide. One is the number of current passport holders. The other is the number of potential passport holders, ie how many people could theoretically be entitled to receive an Irish passport.
Since the DFA are incapable of answering this question, we should already be backing away rapidly from any concept of extending suffrage. However, for the interest of debate, let's play maths.
Last year, 4,581,269 people lived in the Republic of Ireland. Not all of these were Irish of course, but we don't have the national breakdowns yet so we'll have to see what we can learn from 2006.
In 2006, there were 3,706,683 Irish citizens in the Republic and 419,733 non-Irish, of whom a quarter were British and hence entitled to vote in all but presidential elections, and another 163,000 from the EU, entitled to vote in many of our elections. So in 2005, some 89% of people in Ireland were Irish, while another 6.6% of residents were entitled to vote here. Working on a similar proportion, that would mean that there are currently c. 4.03 million Irish in the Republic, plus another c. 302,000 who can vote here.
Now, not all of these are of legal age to vote. But since the CSO break down age annoyingly into a 15-19 yo age grouping, it isn't actually possible to get a voting cohort for even 2006 without asking them to custom produce the stats, which I'm not able to do at this time of night. Let's work on the assumption that, in your shiny world of ex-pat voting, all people will one day be of an age to vote. Hence we're talking potential voters for now.
So 4 million Irish and 300K non-Irish resident voters in the Republic.
Under the GFA, all NI citizens are entitled to passports unequivocally. According to NISRA, in June 2010, there were just under 1.8 million people resident in NI. 91% of these are NI born, and hence qualify under the GFA for Irish passports. I know many are Unionists; nevertheless, I've explained I'm looking at potential voters here. So that's another 1.63 million potential voters there, and let's not forget that a decent proportion of the other 9% living in NI are, guess what? Irish citizens from the Republic, around another 40-50,000. Again, as with the Republic, we are awaiting fresh census figures to be released shortly. I'm happy to reprise this with the actual figures when available.
So, in Ireland alone, 5.67 m potential Irish passport holders.
According to the Guardian, there are another 400,000 (Ro)Irish born residents in Britain. Unfortunately this does not include the no of NI born people living in Britain, all of whom are entitled to passports under the GFA. Working on relative ratios of population (even though NI born people are more likely than RoI born people to move to Britain), we can add another 160,000 NI born. So that's a further 560,000 potential passport holders in Britain. Bear in mind, I am including under 18s, but not including partners, etc, who would all become potential Irish passport holders.
You begin to see why the DFA has no idea, don't you? And we haven't even got as far as Europe yet. There are almost no stats available on this. Wiki offers a ballpark figure of 500,000 in continental Europe but offers little supporting data for that. Let's say it's half that - 250,000. Now we're up to 6.48 million potential passport holders.
Let's look further afield. 35% of Australians have Irish ancestry, but many of these don't qualify for passports currently. According to the ABC in 2006, some 60,000 residents then were Irish born. We could probably bump that up a bit now, given recent times. Let's say 75,000 conservatively. There were 21,000 NI born residents then too. We could put that up to at least 25,000 now. In 2006, between 12,000 and 15,000 New Zealand residents were Irish born. Again, with both antipodean states, we cannot filter out the NI people who currently associate or self-describe as British from the British or UK stats. So the antipodean figures are actually UNDERestimates of total potential Irish passport holders.
Before we've even got to North America, we're looking at some 6.6 million potential Irish passport holders.
In 2006, some 4.3 MILLION Canadians put their ethnicity down in the Canadian census as Irish. Bear in mind, Canadian was an option on the form! We cannot know how many of these are entitled to passports under the current system. If only 10%, we'd be looking at 430,000 more passport holders (plus spouses, offspring, etc.) There are also around 30,000 Irish born residents then, likely more now. Again, we can't filter the NI born out of the UK figures. Scaling both estimates up to today, I'd guess at a figure of total island born residents of Canada at c. 50,000.
According to the US Census bureau last year, some 36.9 MILLION Americans consider themselves Irish. Now, that's 8 times the population of the Republic, but we know most of those could not claim passports. However, an unknowable proportion could. And 122,000 US residents were IRISH BORN (again, we have no way of filtering NI born out of the generic UK figure, so again this is an underestimate). Let's work again pro-rata with Ireland's own population. That gives us another 49,000 or so.
Minimum 6,821,000 so far, haven't even looked at Africa, South America, Asia...
PLUS spouses. PLUS offspring. NEVER MIND those of one generation descent already. Or those of Two. You couldn't guess at the number. The DFA can't.
So for a nation of 4.5 million residents of whom only 4 million are Irish, we could ballpark be looking, very conservatively, at an exposure to nearly DOUBLE that number of passport holders worldwide, if not moreso.

TL;DR - There is likely as many people outside of Ireland entitled to Irish passports already as there are in the country. Most likely quite significantly more.

csm

Actually, there already exists a distinction between those citizens born in Ireland and those born abroad with regard to the citizenship by descent rules, so essentially there are different levels of citizenship. Granted, this is more an administrative distinction than anything else but it is there nonetheless.

Clearly, there would need to be some scaling of the power of a vote so that those abroad did not overwhelm residents, but this already occurs in Oireachtas elections via constituency boundaries. Extending to referenda and the presidential election would be tricky of course.

To be honest, I'd be happy with presidential elections alone as I think that that is the kind of election that the diaspora should be included in.

csm

If you resent ex-pats voting without being taxed, why not charge an 'administration' fee for doing it? That has the twin goals of excluding those not interested and introducing a tax element.

jank

Cavehill Red wrote: »

Should anyone who crosses the border from Newry to buy petrol or smokes be entitled to a vote? What about those visiting from Holyhead on the ferry for a day? Or someone transiting through Shannon? Clearly this is a mockery of the concept of holding a meaningful stake in the society in which you claim suffrage. Such a meaningful stake could only be attained by either being a permanent part of this society as a resident, or emulating that status by filing a full tax return.

In your opinion.

Having a stake in the country doesn't mean you have to fit into this narrow world view. Also, I pay other taxes in Ireland other than VAT as do many other Irish people, I have also paid years of PRSI and income tax. Something that I was happy to do at the time (even though if I returned to Ireland now and failed to get a job I get...em zero, yes zero social welfare benefits.)

Cavehill Red wrote: »

Slowly, light dawns. That's exactly what I was doing. The tea party (original version) resented being taxed without being represented. I resent the concept of ex-pats being represented without being taxed. This really needn't to have been spelled out, and didn't have to be for anyone else.

Here we get to the nub of it. Resentment, the small mindedness, nimbyism. As I said, for you democracy should only be afforded to those that contribute in the forms of taxation. That is a fair point in some aspects but harks back to the age of Victoria where only men of property could vote. I presume those who are on the dole that are a "burden" of the taxation system should NOT have a vote? Also what are the requirements for your ex-pat taxation system? Should one pay tax at the same rate as they would if they were earning income at home or should there be a tax free threshold of say 100,000 euro like they do in the US?

I myself would not be adverse to such a system if it could afford me a vote BUT it could very quickly become an easy way to raise income for the socialist policies that Ireland love to pursue. If the situation evolved where ALL passports holders had to pay this "tax" then one could see the best and brightest that are leaving now, the vast majority of them renounce their citizenship and that is NOT a good situation for Ireland, in fact it would be a disaster. Anyway, a passport is an expensive item to renew every few years, maybe this should be viewed as your ex-pat tax?

Lastly I find it amusing that we are not talking about the history of emigration and the rich contribution both financially and culturally to Ireland from "ex-pats". Post the famine, the millions of Irish that left for the United States sent untold millions back to their family so that many of them could eat and live. In the 50's the same pattern was repeated again. I have heard estimates in the Billions in the amount of capital that was sent back to Ireland by emigrants to their loved ones. In my mind it is a disgrace, the treatment of these emigrants by the Irish state especially those that are now old and broken in Britain. But sure never mind that, lets keep the age old mantra.

Pay up and shut up and for god sake don't change a thing!

jank

csm wrote: »

If you resent ex-pats voting without being taxed, why not charge an 'administration' fee for doing it? That has the twin goals of excluding those not interested and introducing a tax element.

That could be easily done but the "taxation" screen is just a ploy for NOT letting this through.

jank

Cavehill Red wrote: »

Unlike Britain, which distinguishes a number of levels or statuses of citizenship/subjectship,.....


..... of Ireland entitled to Irish passports already as there are in the country. Most likely quite significantly more.[/B]

OK, well we all know this is just a ploy to scare everyone about this vast unknown alien. You and me both know that the vast vast vast majority of these passport holders would never vote in any election in Ireland.
What was the last turn out in the GE in 2011? 70%? And this was at home!

Anyway, countries with large ex-pat communities get this to work. Countries like Mexico, the Philippines, Italy, UK even India has joined in afaik recently.
It is very very easy to implement a residency term to this ex-pat vote.

E.g. If you have lived and worked (;)) in Ireland during the past 15 years and you are an Irish born Citizen, you can have a vote. Past that time your voting rights expire.

This is something similar that happens in the UK.

southsiderosie

jank wrote: »

OK, well we all know this is just a ploy to scare everyone about this vast unknown alien. You and me both know that the vast vast vast majority of these passport holders would never vote in any election in Ireland.
What was the last turn out in the GE in 2011? 70%? And this was at home!

Anyway, countries with large ex-pat communities get this to work. Countries like Mexico, the Philippines, Italy, UK even India has joined in afaik recently.
It is very very easy to implement a residency term to this ex-pat vote.

E.g. If you have lived and worked (;)) in Ireland during the past 15 years and you are an Irish born Citizen, you can have a vote. Past that time your voting rights expire.

This is something similar that happens in the UK.

Mexico and the Philippines have to let their ex-pats vote because such as huge percentage of their GDP comes from remittances - and even then, in Mexico it was an extremely contentious issue, especially since it was essentially a one-party state until 2000.

I believe that Italy and a few other countries with a history of emigration have "emigrants seats" in the national legislature - so expats can vote, but only for the set-aside representatives. This way, they do have a representative voice, but they can't 'swamp' the system, because the presence of expat reps is not proportional to the expat population.

Cavehill Red

jank wrote: »

E.g. If you have lived and worked (;)) in Ireland during the past 15 years and you are an Irish born Citizen, you can have a vote. Past that time your voting rights expire.

This is something similar that happens in the UK.

How many lies do you intend to tell in one thread?
Having destroyed your assertion that there aren't many people out there entitled to vote in Irish elections if they chose, now I'm faced with this utter falsehood.
It demonstrates the lack of validity for your argument when all you can offer is lies to support it.

eire4

Cavehill Red wrote: »

Robinson set a - to my mind somewhat unconstitutional - position for the presidency vis-a-vis ex-pats. In that context, and its continuation and extension towards the citizens of occupied Ireland by her successor, and the fact that the presidency is largely ceremonial, I could potentially be persuaded that ex-patriates might be permitted a vote on the presidency.

However, it is notable that worldwide the number of potential Irish passport holders is a number of factors greater than the population of the Republic.


The title of this thread is Voting Rights For Irish Born Citizens Living Abroad. The estimated number of thoe people is 800,000. The number of potential Irish passport holders has no relevance to this thread.