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Voting Rights For Irish Born Living Abroad
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It is sad to see some real shots been taken at Irish citizens living abroad calling them plastic paddies etc. An Irishman or woman is Irish no matter where he or she lives. The implication behind such sentiments is that Irish people living abroad are inferior and not really Irish. That is a dangerous statement to make and one I totally disagree with.
I will re state my belief that even more so at this difficult time we as a nation need to look for creative solutions to rebuild our country. One way for me is to try and bring the expert abilities in various fields of the Irish living abroad to bear within different parts of our economy and giving the Irish abroad a voice is empowering and shows a positive confidence in our fellow Irish abroad. If for nothing else we need fresh ideas and fresh looks at our problems as a country as it is.
Only people BORN and RAISED in Ireland or have lived here for over 5 years are Irish in my mind.
The plastic paddy whackery has become very exposed in this economic crisis with Ireland being a non subject overseas and only the Plastic paddy whackery of Obama with his Hurley making headlines.
Plastic Paddies have commodified Irishness...and they have no right to...
What gives people not born here who don't live here or have not grown up here the right to dictate to people living here ...it is undemocratic .
If you are talking about Irish who have grown up abroad YES THEY ARE LESS IRISH OR AT LEAST A DIFFERENT TYPE Of IRISH
Someone asked about US EXPAT TAXES.... http://www.greenbacktaxservices.com/resources/blog/category/the-your-us-expat-taxes-explained-series/
I started to read through it...got bored...
The Germans basically run this country now ...and have we heard an outporing of support from paddies abroad..erm no...
When we voted no to nice and lisbon..did we hear support of our vote from paddies abroad ..erm no...
The Irish Americans (even those with citizenship) seem totally unaware that German policy is destroying this country's democracy
Even if you disagree with my politics..you would have to admit ...They are woefully uninformed about Irish politics and what is going on on the ground.
I have relatives abroad...WHO ARE PROUD TO BE IRISH and where born and raised here and left in their twenties and thirties.....they are not well informed enough about Irish politics to vote ...and whatever you say about Irish living here being uninformed ..well at least theyget literature through the door...and national media coverage etc
How would you get political literature to all expats ??
And HOW MUCH WOULD ALL THIS COST???
Lets be honest ....a lot who have Irish citizenship in America and Britain have little thought for Ireland....it is not on the top of their agenda
When an Irish election comes ..i want to know voters (whatever their opinion want what is best for Ireland)
Not what suits American or British politcal views or agendas
And the record of those Irish abroad you are speaking of interfering in Irish politics has been poor at best.
Declan Ganley comes to mind......i mean really? And he lives here..
We have many referenda here..they have been used by expats (Declan Ganely) and those who don't care about Ireland for their own purposes...and they sometimes jar in EU plans or jar American agendas in what they want to sell to Irish Americans in telling them how to vote
Consider Romney's and Krugmans view of what is going on in Ireland...i mean if those who have Irish citizenship in America where to vote on economic policy what would they be voting on?? Idealism in American politics or what is really going on in Ireland..
THAT IS THE MAIN ISSUE
Irish abroad could never vote based on what is goig on in Ireland ..only ideals...
There are huge drawbacks in giving those far removed form a place power over it..we have seen this with the EU and during British rule..
Youu will not suffer the consequences nor see them...
Even in your posts it is obvious....your objective is not what is best for Ireland...but some ideal....some 'Irish dispora nation Ideal'....i am certain most people in Ireland would not want it.
And i am certain i is not best for Ireland and i can see it being abused by those who would give their vote (like Declan Ganley) and voice to causes that have really little to do with Ireland but with other more international agendas..
Also remember the years whe funding from America went to paramilitaries??? How wrong those people judged the situation??
Also here is one BIG issue....which makes me suspicious of anyone asking for voting rights for Irish citizens abroad ..someofwhom may not beborn here..
In the next few years...or at some point..it is likely that the Issue of northern Ireland would come up
I mean at some point ....and yes Sinn Féin plays lip service ..who knows what will happen....
But it is likely to happen at some point??
Is i really wise to have Irish citizens voting abroad on Issues like that??
Séin Féin would LOVE to up their nationalist numbers for a vote for re-unification for a yes vote ..in the north and here
And yes what about northern Irish living outside of the North Or South??
So they would not get to vote in the North but they would here??
eire 4 if you have been brought up here or live here but live abroad..you don't need a vote to be Irish either you are or you are not..
And a vote will not make anyone anymore Irish...not if you have not spent time here
eire4 i dont know if you gre up here or were bornhere or not ...but the attitude that those with official citizenship and have not stepped foot in the country or spent much time here are Irish in the same way as Irish living here is erroneous
I don't begrudge people their heritage or ethnicity
But it really bugs me when those of Irish heritage try to shape Ireland into something it is not simply for an Ideal of who they want to be
And i could see that happening..
But honestly would Irish abraod even have a clue which way to vote on things like nice or the fiscal treaty???
And that goes way further than Ireland...
And they cant know Irishpoliticans like we do here..i mean we get to meet them often
The foreign media does not even pay much attention to Ireland
I mean Irish Americans havenot got a clue of the trouble we are in ..nor do they care ..and many of them have Irish citizenship....0 -
poeticseraphim wrote: »Only people BORN and RAISED in Ireland or have lived here for over 5 years are Irish in my mind.
The plastic paddy whackery has become very exposed in this economic crisis with Ireland being a non subject overseas and only the Plastic paddy whackery of Obama with his Hurley making headlines.
Plastic Paddies have commodified Irishness...and they have no right to...
What gives people not born here who don't live here or have not grown up here the right to dictate to people living here ...it is undemocratic .
If you are talking about Irish who have grown up abroad YES THEY ARE LESS IRISH OR AT LEAST A DIFFERENT TYPE Of IRISH
Someone asked about US EXPAT TAXES.... http://www.greenbacktaxservices.com/resources/blog/category/the-your-us-expat-taxes-explained-series/
I started to read through it...got bored...
The Germans basically run this country now ...and have we heard an outporing of support from paddies abroad..erm no...
When we voted no to nice and lisbon..did we hear support of our vote from paddies abroad ..erm no...
The Irish Americans (even those with citizenship) seem totally unaware that German policy is destroying this country's democracy
Even if you disagree with my politics..you would have to admit ...They are woefully uninformed about Irish politics and what is going on on the ground.
I have relatives abroad...WHO ARE PROUD TO BE IRISH and where born and raised here and left in their twenties and thirties.....they are not well informed enough about Irish politics to vote ...and whatever you say about Irish living here being uninformed ..well at least theyget literature through the door...and national media coverage etc
How would you get political literature to all expats ??
And HOW MUCH WOULD ALL THIS COST???
Lets be honest ....a lot who have Irish citizenship in America and Britain have little thought for Ireland....it is not on the top of their agenda
When an Irish election comes ..i want to know voters (whatever their opinion want what is best for Ireland)
Not what suits American or British politcal views or agendas
And the record of those Irish abroad you are speaking of interfering in Irish politics has been poor at best.
Declan Ganley comes to mind......i mean really? And he lives here..
We have many referenda here..they have been used by expats (Declan Ganely) and those who don't care about Ireland for their own purposes...and they sometimes jar in EU plans or jar American agendas in what they want to sell to Irish Americans in telling them how to vote
Consider Romney's and Krugmans view of what is going on in Ireland...i mean if those who have Irish citizenship in America where to vote on economic policy what would they be voting on?? Idealism in American politics or what is really going on in Ireland..
THAT IS THE MAIN ISSUE
Irish abroad could never vote based on what is goig on in Ireland ..only ideals...
There are huge drawbacks in giving those far removed form a place power over it..we have seen this with the EU and during British rule..
Youu will not suffer the consequences nor see them...
Even in your posts it is obvious....your objective is not what is best for Ireland...but some ideal....some 'Irish dispora nation Ideal'....i am certain most people in Ireland would not want it.
And i am certain i is not best for Ireland and i can see it being abused by those who would give their vote (like Declan Ganley) and voice to causes that have really little to do with Ireland but with other more international agendas..
Also remember the years whe funding from America went to paramilitaries??? How wrong those people judged the situation??
Also here is one BIG issue....which makes me suspicious of anyone asking for voting rights for Irish citizens abroad ..someofwhom may not beborn here..
In the next few years...or at some point..it is likely that the Issue of northern Ireland would come up
I mean at some point ....and yes Sinn Féin plays lip service ..who knows what will happen....
But it is likely to happen at some point??
Is i really wise to have Irish citizens voting abroad on Issues like that??
Séin Féin would LOVE to up their nationalist numbers for a vote for re-unification for a yes vote ..in the north and here
And yes what about northern Irish living outside of the North Or South??
So they would not get to vote in the North but they would here??
eire 4 if you have been brought up here or live here but live abroad..you don't need a vote to be Irish either you are or you are not..
And a vote will not make anyone anymore Irish...not if you have not spent time here
eire4 i dont know if you gre up here or were bornhere or not ...but the attitude that those with official citizenship and have not stepped foot in the country or spent much time here are Irish in the same way as Irish living here is erroneous
I don't begrudge people their heritage or ethnicity
But it really bugs me when those of Irish heritage try to shape Ireland into something it is not simply for an Ideal of who they want to be
And i could see that happening..
But honestly would Irish abraod even have a clue which way to vote on things like nice or the fiscal treaty???
And that goes way further than Ireland...
And they cant know Irishpoliticans like we do here..i mean we get to meet them often
The foreign media does not even pay much attention to Ireland
I mean Irish Americans havenot got a clue of the trouble we are in ..nor do they care ..and many of them have Irish citizenship....
I have consistently stated in this thread that the idea is to give the vote to Irish born citizens currently living abroad. It is estimated that there are about 800,000 Irish born citizens living abroad at present. So no need for your capitals. I have not said that anybody not born in Ireland should be allowed to vote.
Please refrain from insulting fellow Irish just because they were raised outside the country. There are many reasons why an Irish person may be raised outside the country be it due to a government posting for a parent or a family moving abroad for a period for a job posting etc. No amount of insults makes them any less Irish then you or me.
You suggest the Irish living abroad are woefully uninformed. Hmm really. By what measure and in any way it matters not if they are or are not. There are plenty of fingers that could be pointed at many Irish people living in Dublin or where ever for voting without any real grasp of important issues. There is no test of knowledge that must be taken before a person can vote. Besides all that the internet is a wonderful thing which allows anybody to keep right up to date and be well informed on any topic where ever they be in the world. It is up to the individual person as to how they inform themsleves on any issue but a certain level of knowledge is not a requirement for a person to vote. If this was the case a good number of Irish living currently in Ireland would be getting kicked off the voting rolls.
You seem very concerned about my status so rest assured I am Irish. Not less Irish or different Irish. Just Irish:)
To answer your question yes Irish citizens living abroad easily can get all the information they need to make an informed decision on which way to vote in say the Nice treaty you mentioned or any other election. As I mentioned the internet and modern commuications is a wonderful thing. It matters not one jot what any foreign media concentrate on. I will also restate as apperently as you say it really bugs you that I am only talking about Irish born citizens living abroad and that if you care to peruse my previous posts on this topic you will see that I have been very consistent in making that statement. The only people in America as you frequently mention the states that are relevant in this issue are Irish born citizens living there. They have no problem getting any informatiuon they need from Irish media sources via the internet be they official, commmercial or independant sources.0 -
poeticseraphim wrote: »It is sad to see some real shots been taken at Irish citizens living abroad calling them plastic paddies etc. An Irishman or woman is Irish no matter where he or she lives. The implication behind such sentiments is that Irish people living abroad are inferior and not really Irish. That is a dangerous statement to make and one I totally disagree with.
I will re state my belief that even more so at this difficult time we as a nation need to look for creative solutions to rebuild our country. One way for me is to try and bring the expert abilities in various fields of the Irish living abroad to bear within different parts of our economy and giving the Irish abroad a voice is empowering and shows a positive confidence in our fellow Irish abroad. If for nothing else we need fresh ideas and fresh looks at our problems as a country as it is.
Only people BORN and RAISED in Ireland or have lived here for over 5 years are Irish in my mind.
The plastic paddy whackery has become very exposed in this economic crisis with Ireland being a non subject overseas and only the Plastic paddy whackery of Obama with his Hurley making headlines.
Plastic Paddies have commodified Irishness...and they have no right to...
What gives people not born here who don't live here or have not grown up here the right to dictate to people living here ...it is undemocratic .
If you are talking about Irish who have grown up abroad YES THEY ARE LESS IRISH OR AT LEAST A DIFFERENT TYPE Of IRISH
Someone asked about US EXPAT TAXES.... http://www.greenbacktaxservices.com/resources/blog/category/the-your-us-expat-taxes-explained-series/
I started to read through it...got bored...
The Germans basically run this country now ...and have we heard an outporing of support from paddies abroad..erm no...
When we voted no to nice and lisbon..did we hear support of our vote from paddies abroad ..erm no...
The Irish Americans (even those with citizenship) seem totally unaware that German policy is destroying this country's democracy
Even if you disagree with my politics..you would have to admit ...They are woefully uninformed about Irish politics and what is going on on the ground.
I have relatives abroad...WHO ARE PROUD TO BE IRISH and where born and raised here and left in their twenties and thirties.....they are not well informed enough about Irish politics to vote ...and whatever you say about Irish living here being uninformed ..well at least theyget literature through the door...and national media coverage etc
How would you get political literature to all expats ??
And HOW MUCH WOULD ALL THIS COST???
Lets be honest ....a lot who have Irish citizenship in America and Britain have little thought for Ireland....it is not on the top of their agenda
When an Irish election comes ..i want to know voters (whatever their opinion want what is best for Ireland)
Not what suits American or British politcal views or agendas
And the record of those Irish abroad you are speaking of interfering in Irish politics has been poor at best.
Declan Ganley comes to mind......i mean really? And he lives here..
We have many referenda here..they have been used by expats (Declan Ganely) and those who don't care about Ireland for their own purposes...and they sometimes jar in EU plans or jar American agendas in what they want to sell to Irish Americans in telling them how to vote
Consider Romney's and Krugmans view of what is going on in Ireland...i mean if those who have Irish citizenship in America where to vote on economic policy what would they be voting on?? Idealism in American politics or what is really going on in Ireland..
THAT IS THE MAIN ISSUE
Irish abroad could never vote based on what is goig on in Ireland ..only ideals...
There are huge drawbacks in giving those far removed form a place power over it..we have seen this with the EU and during British rule..
Youu will not suffer the consequences nor see them...
Even in your posts it is obvious....your objective is not what is best for Ireland...but some ideal....some 'Irish dispora nation Ideal'....i am certain most people in Ireland would not want it.
And i am certain i is not best for Ireland and i can see it being abused by those who would give their vote (like Declan Ganley) and voice to causes that have really little to do with Ireland but with other more international agendas..
Also remember the years whe funding from America went to paramilitaries??? How wrong those people judged the situation??
Also here is one BIG issue....which makes me suspicious of anyone asking for voting rights for Irish citizens abroad ..someofwhom may not beborn here..
In the next few years...or at some point..it is likely that the Issue of northern Ireland would come up
I mean at some point ....and yes Sinn Féin plays lip service ..who knows what will happen....
But it is likely to happen at some point??
Is i really wise to have Irish citizens voting abroad on Issues like that??
Séin Féin would LOVE to up their nationalist numbers for a vote for re-unification for a yes vote ..in the north and here
And yes what about northern Irish living outside of the North Or South??
So they would not get to vote in the North but they would here??
eire 4 if you have been brought up here or live here but live abroad..you don't need a vote to be Irish either you are or you are not..
And a vote will not make anyone anymore Irish...not if you have not spent time here
eire4 i dont know if you gre up here or were bornhere or not ...but the attitude that those with official citizenship and have not stepped foot in the country or spent much time here are Irish in the same way as Irish living here is erroneous
I don't begrudge people their heritage or ethnicity
But it really bugs me when those of Irish heritage try to shape Ireland into something it is not simply for an Ideal of who they want to be
And i could see that happening..
But honestly would Irish abraod even have a clue which way to vote on things like nice or the fiscal treaty???
And that goes way further than Ireland...
And they cant know Irishpoliticans like we do here..i mean we get to meet them often
The foreign media does not even pay much attention to Ireland
I mean Irish Americans havenot got a clue of the trouble we are in ..nor do they care ..and many of them have Irish citizenship....
I'm surprised that your quite happy for all of these phoney plastic Paddles to have citizenship, so long as they don't get the dreaded vote. Do you not consider citizenship important in its own right?0 -
I'm surprised that your quite happy for all of these phoney plastic Paddles to have citizenship, so long as they don't get the dreaded vote. Do you not consider citizenship important in its own right?
Yes, but happy with the status quo..:)
They are free to come and live here and then vote.:)0 -
I have consistently stated in this thread that the idea is to give the vote to Irish born citizens currently living abroad. It is estimated that there are about 800,000 Irish born citizens living abroad at present. So no need for your capitals. I have not said that anybody not born in Ireland should be allowed to vote.
Please refrain from insulting fellow Irish just because they were raised outside the country. There are many reasons why an Irish person may be raised outside the country be it due to a government posting for a parent or a family moving abroad for a period for a job posting etc. No amount of insults makes them any less Irish then you or me.
You suggest the Irish living abroad are woefully uninformed. Hmm really. By what measure and in any way it matters not if they are or are not. There are plenty of fingers that could be pointed at many Irish people living in Dublin or where ever for voting without any real grasp of important issues. There is no test of knowledge that must be taken before a person can vote. Besides all that the internet is a wonderful thing which allows anybody to keep right up to date and be well informed on any topic where ever they be in the world. It is up to the individual person as to how they inform themsleves on any issue but a certain level of knowledge is not a requirement for a person to vote. If this was the case a good number of Irish living currently in Ireland would be getting kicked off the voting rolls.
You seem very concerned about my status so rest assured I am Irish. Not less Irish or different Irish. Just Irish:)
To answer your question yes Irish citizens living abroad easily can get all the information they need to make an informed decision on which way to vote in say the Nice treaty you mentioned or any other election. As I mentioned the internet and modern commuications is a wonderful thing. It matters not one jot what any foreign media concentrate on. I will also restate as apperently as you say it really bugs you that I am only talking about Irish born citizens living abroad and that if you care to peruse my previous posts on this topic you will see that I have been very consistent in making that statement. The only people in America as you frequently mention the states that are relevant in this issue are Irish born citizens living there. They have no problem getting any informatiuon they need from Irish media sources via the internet be they official, commmercial or independant sources.
Information is not what they need ...it's experience
And saying they are not AS Irish or differently Irish is NOT and insult at all. Why would it be ....LOTS of people are not Irish. Lots of people are not Irish and live here and i would be more willing to give them the vote to be honest if they are permanent residents and pay tax.
It is not insulting to state the obvious that an Irish citizen raised in London or Boston or Canada or wherever is completely culturally different to me and other Irish brought up in Ireland.
Infact it would be insulting not to admit those differences.
And quite frankly ridiculous.
You may have said Irish born ..but others have said otherwise or infered it.
And to be honest moving as a baby to elsewhere being brought up there with Irish citizenship would not in my mind give them the right to vote.
Experiencing the conditions for yourself is not the same to reading it.
Irish American or whatever seems to be something americans use to identify themselves to each other that is not just white.
Sorry but it is the way most Irish think.
Why is it insulting to think of them as less Irish and more American if they were raised there??? Regardless of why it does not change the fact that they were.
And i am not saying they do not have the right to live here ad the vote..
Honestly i would rather give the right to vote to those who reside here
Anyway you did not address what i said about northern Ireland and other stuff never mind.
It is the essence of democracy to vote where you live .
Sorry.
I mean if i move abroad i would not expect the right to vote unless i returned and if i had children abroad i would not expect them to have the right to vote unless they where living here.
I think it would be unreasonable to expect otherwise.
I would also think that they should have a right to feel American or English or whatever culture they grew up in and to celebrate that and not radicalise them with a sense of dispora nationalism.
And i would like perhaps to live abroad..but i would want people living here to soley determine their government as they have to live with it
If they live in a European0 -
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Often we are. We can read the Web and occasionally visit, but it is hardly being there 'on the ground' as it were and as time goes on and you grow roots abroad, you check what's going on back in the aul sod, less and less - after all, little if any of it will actually affect you.You suggest the Irish living abroad are woefully uninformed.
And that's me; someone who lives outside Ireland, but previously lived most of his life there. What about those citizens who have never been to Ireland, or have only visited on holidays? How well informed are they?
You see, when you talk of "800,000 Irish born citizens", I'm not entirely sure what you're talking about. Are you talking about 800,000 Irish citizens, born in Ireland who left? Because that is all it can be - otherwise you're talking about 800,000 people born abroad with a right to Irish citizenship, which is not the same - it's not automatic; I was born in Italy, for example, and had to apply, despite my mother having been born and bred in Ireland.
I could have lived my entire life in Italy, never set foot in Ireland and I'd still be eligible for citizenship, by right of blood. How educated on Irish politics would I be then?
And I see them all the time; Argentinians with Italian citizenship (despite never having been in Italy or not being able to speak Italian) or South Africans with British citizenship or Americans with Irish citizenship, inherited from a grandparent - they can even pass it on to their grandchildren, with no obligation than anyone in five generations ever travel to Ireland!
This is one of the problems with giving voting rights on the basis of citizenship alone, when citizenship is based on a principle of jus sanguinis.
And what is the other reason it's such a bad idea, even for someone like me, to have a non-resident vote? Because I would be exerting political power without suffering the consequences, which is why a registered voter (which is already a flawed system) in Roscommon can't vote for a TD in Dublin.
If I vote for some loon, who wants to invade NI or leave the EU or whatever and this wrecks the country, that's no skin off my nose - Hell, if it results in Ireland being plunged into a 50-year depression, it's actually good for me, as I'll be able to buy up a holiday home there for next to nothing.
As I said, it's a stupid idea. Of course citizens should have a vote, but ultimately they also need to be invested in the consequences of that vote and realistically to do that they need to be both citizens and resident.
And this is from a non-resident Irish citizen.0 -
The Corinthian wrote: »Often we are. We can read the Web and occasionally visit, but it is hardly being there 'on the ground' as it were and as time goes on and you grow roots abroad,
Last time I checked there was no education, information or any kind of level of knowledge of the issues required for a person to vote in Ireland. If this were the case we would be getting rid of a lot of Irish living in Ireland off the voting rolls.
"You see, when you talk of "800,000 Irish born citizens", I'm not entirely sure what you're talking about. Are you talking about 800,000 Irish citizens, born in Ireland who left? Because that is all it can be - otherwise you're talking about 800,000 people born abroad with a right to Irish citizenship, which is not the same - it's not automatic;"
It is estimated that there are currently 800,000approx Irish born citizens currently living abroad. Now obviously if these 800,000 were born in Ireland and now live abroad then the only way they got there was to leave Ireland!0 -
poeticseraphim wrote: »Information is not what they need ...it's experience
And saying they are not AS Irish or differently Irish is NOT and insult at all. Why would it be ....LOTS of people are not Irish. Lots of people are not Irish and live here and i would be more willing to give them the vote to be honest if they are permanent residents and pay tax.
It is not insulting to state the obvious that an Irish citizen raised in London or Boston or Canada or wherever is completely culturally different to me and other Irish brought up in Ireland.
Infact it would be insulting not to admit those differences.
And quite frankly ridiculous.
You may have said Irish born ..but others have said otherwise or infered it.
And to be honest moving as a baby to elsewhere being brought up there with Irish citizenship would not in my mind give them the right to vote.
Experiencing the conditions for yourself is not the same to reading it.
Irish American or whatever seems to be something americans use to identify themselves to each other that is not just white.
Sorry but it is the way most Irish think.
Why is it insulting to think of them as less Irish and more American if they were raised there??? Regardless of why it does not change the fact that they were.
And i am not saying they do not have the right to live here ad the vote..
Honestly i would rather give the right to vote to those who reside here
Anyway you did not address what i said about northern Ireland and other stuff never mind.
It is the essence of democracy to vote where you live .
Sorry.
I mean if i move abroad i would not expect the right to vote unless i returned and if i had children abroad i would not expect them to have the right to vote unless they where living here.
I think it would be unreasonable to expect otherwise.
I would also think that they should have a right to feel American or English or whatever culture they grew up in and to celebrate that and not radicalise them with a sense of dispora nationalism.
And i would like perhaps to live abroad..but i would want people living here to soley determine their government as they have to live with it
If they live in a European
Saying someone is different in their Irishness is indeed not an insult. But that is not what I pointed out. You also suggested some people were not "as" Irish as others and that is indeed an insult.
I did indeed say Irish born living abroad and others indeed may have inferred otherwise but that is not pertinent here as you were responding to me.
You may or may not be aware that Ireland's denial of it's native born citizens in terms of voting is not only not the norm it is highly abnormal as voting rights for native born citizens living abroad is allowed in most of the developed world including almost all the EU. So is Ireland now suddenly a bastion of real democracy as we have the "essence" as you called it of democracy in our saying no to Irish born citizens living abroad voting?
I will state again that having a certain level of knowledge or experience of the issues of the day is not a requirement to vote as if it was then we would need to get rid of a good number of people form the voting rolls who currently live in Ireland.0 -
Then why were you debating it? My point on being 'informed' is that many Irish citizens abroad have increasingly tenuous connections to Ireland over time; those of us raised in Ireland lose track of what's going on because we're only invested in it in terms of sentiment at best. Other citizens are so only by accident of birth; de facto (and more often than not, de jure), they're citizens of the country where they're resident and have lived their entire lives.Last time I checked there was no education, information or any kind of level of knowledge of the issues required for a person to vote in Ireland. If this were the case we would be getting rid of a lot of Irish living in Ireland off the voting rolls.
And how are you going to differentiate between those like me who grew up in Ireland and those who never set foot in Ireland but had an Irish grandparent? Or will you give us both a say in how you live your life?
And how many Irish citizens, who were not born and may have never set foot in Ireland, will you give a vote to?It is estimated that there are currently 800,000approx Irish born citizens currently living abroad. Now obviously if these 800,000 were born in Ireland and now live abroad then the only way they got there was to leave Ireland!0 -
What if there was a requirement that you had to have residency in Ireland to be able to vote from abroad? I just think it is wrong that someone who is out of the country for school, on a work contract, or some other temporary (i.e. no more than 2 years) situation loses their right to vote - especially since so many people are emigrating because of the incompetence of the last government.
I get the point that when you have jus sanguinis citizenship laws, you can't give everyone the right to vote, but Ireland is one of the few countries with a long history of emigration that gives emigrants no say whatsoever in the political process. Italy, for example, has several seats in its parliament dedicated to Italians voting from abroad - I think this is a reasonable compromise.0 -
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You would have to actually regulate and verify residency, which is presently not done - dual residency means you split your time between two countries, not that you have an address in both.southsiderosie wrote: »What if there was a requirement that you had to have residency in Ireland to be able to vote from abroad?
At present, unlike almost all of Europe, it's not regulated - so you could technically vote in Ireland, as long as you keep an address there and fly back whenever there's a vote. In the case of the Seanad, where many of the votes are postal anyway, you can simply have your post forwarded.
Well, that's kind of the price you pay when you leave for a better life elsewhere.I just think it is wrong that someone who is out of the country for school, on a work contract, or some other temporary (i.e. no more than 2 years) situation loses their right to vote - especially since so many people are emigrating because of the incompetence of the last government.
I don't disagree with the concept of representation for non resident citizens, the question is how this is handled. The Italian model is not bad; the camera dei deputati (lower house) has 12 such deputies out of 630, while the senate has 6 out of a total 315 seniors. This gives representation but not so much that the overseas vote would likely dominate national policy.I get the point that when you have jus sanguinis citizenship laws, you can't give everyone the right to vote, but Ireland is one of the few countries with a long history of emigration that gives emigrants no say whatsoever in the political process. Italy, for example, has several seats in its parliament dedicated to Italians voting from abroad - I think this is a reasonable compromise.
My main concern for representation of non-resident Irish citizens is that if one could vote for an existing constituency that you are registered with, you would have literally have a third of the total electorate or more living abroad; with little or no stake in the consequences of an election and in many cases being little more than citizens on paper.0 -
Lapsed Catholic wrote: »As some one who lived abroad for 10 years, and susequently returned, I certainly don't feel that I abandoned my country.
Originally Posted by eire4
The suggestion is to give the right to vote to Irish born citizens. Born being the key word
My eldest son was born overseas. He has dual citizenship. He is as Irish as I am. He plays hurling, I played rugby. He has an Irish accent, an Irish soul, an Irish attitude. If he decides to emigrate from Ireland, not his birthplace, he will be prevented from voting here under these proposals. The Irish born children of immigrants will be allowed to vote here, despite their possible return to the country of birth of their parents, they may never speak Irish or English, they will be Irish only through an accident of birth.
I am against expat votes, however I am open to debate. But where does one make the cut off point?
We should allow to vote to all who hold Irish citizenship and to those who are Irish born non-citizens.0 -
OK, well we all know this is just a ploy to scare everyone about this vast unknown alien. You and me both know that the vast vast vast majority of these passport holders would never vote in any election in Ireland.
Agree. Maybe only 1 in 10 of them or even 1 in 50 eventually would turn up for the elections.0 -
We should allow to vote to all who hold Irish citizenship and to those who are Irish born non-citizens.
That could mean giving a vote to people not only who themselves have not been born here or stepped foot in the country but whose parents may not have been born here or stepped foot in the country.
It could also mean giving the vote to people born here as children to foreign.nationals...left soon after and never set foot in the country again and have no legal connection.
Ridiculous.
If immigrants were allowed two vote in there constituencies ...it would mean in some areas the absantee vote would outweigh the residents voting.
They would be held subject to the whims of people who can vote without suffering the consequences of that vote...who don't pay taxes to the govt here and dont have to live with the taxation or austerity measures imposed upon the poeple who do live here....and the the fact remains..they don't live here
No...i would rather tighten up Irish citzenship to be honest.
It is entirely unfair to allow those who dont pay tax here to vote especially if they dont have to live with the consequences of that vote...
Forget the Irish label thing ...who cares....it would hold communities under the tyranny of people in other countries in some cases.
We may feel we are better off financially or would have better living standards voting a certain way and they are voting purely on ideals..not what they have to live with
Anyway it is not set to change ..than god0 -
poeticseraphim wrote: »That could mean giving a vote to people not only who themselves have not been born here or stepped foot in the country but whose parents may not have been born here or stepped foot in the country.
It could also mean giving the vote to people born here as children to foreign.nationals...left soon after and never set foot in the country again and have no legal connection.
Ridiculous.
Maybe they would bring some fresh ideas, otherwise current voters only make circles around FF/FG/Labour (Eurocrats), those who brought us into the current economic mess.0 -
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The Corinthian wrote: »Well, that's kind of the price you pay when you leave for a better life elsewhere.
As an American, I can vote from anywhere in the world (or vote absentee within the country if I am out of town), so I find this attitude to be kind of odd. But I also have to pay US taxes regardless of where in the world I am living, so I suppose that is the tradeoff!The Corinthian wrote: »I don't disagree with the concept of representation for non resident citizens, the question is how this is handled. The Italian model is not bad; the camera dei deputati (lower house) has 12 such deputies out of 630, while the senate has 6 out of a total 315 seniors. This gives representation but not so much that the overseas vote would likely dominate national policy.
My main concern for representation of non-resident Irish citizens is that if one could vote for an existing constituency that you are registered with, you would have literally have a third of the total electorate or more living abroad; with little or no stake in the consequences of an election and in many cases being little more than citizens on paper.
I think the overseas seats could work pretty well in Ireland, especially since it isn't a national PR system (which given the nature of Irish politics would be a vast improvement over the current system IMO).0 -
The Corinthian wrote: »You must love the fresh ideas that the German government is introducing to Irish fiscal policy then...
To be fair it is the current system which includes excluding Irish born citizens living abroad from voting which has us in the mess we are currently in taking orders from Germany.0 -
The Corinthian wrote: »Then why were you debating it? My point on being 'informed' is that many Irish citizens abroad have increasingly tenuous connections to Ireland over time; those of us raised in Ireland lose track of what's going on because we're only invested in it in terms of sentiment at best. Other citizens are so only by accident of birth; de facto (and more often than not, de jure), they're citizens of the country where they're resident and have lived their entire lives.
And how are you going to differentiate between those like me who grew up in Ireland and those who never set foot in Ireland but had an Irish grandparent? Or will you give us both a say in how you live your life?
And how many Irish citizens, who were not born and may have never set foot in Ireland, will you give a vote to?
I am simply putting forth the fact in terms of the "informed" issue that it is of no consequence. As it happens in the modern world an Irishman can have access to information on almost any issue he may care to spend time on. But that nonetheless is not a requirement for being able to vote. Otherwise as I have said before we would have to dump a fair number of our fellow citizens from the voting rolls be they living in Dublin, Cork, Galway etc.
To answer your question at the end there I would give zero votes to Irish passport holders who were not born in Ireland nor ever set foot in Ireland.0 -
southsiderosie wrote: »As an American, I can vote from anywhere in the world (or vote absentee within the country if I am out of town), so I find this attitude to be kind of odd. But I also have to pay US taxes regardless of where in the world I am living, so I suppose that is the tradeoff!
I think the overseas seats could work pretty well in Ireland, especially since it isn't a national PR system (which given the nature of Irish politics would be a vast improvement over the current system IMO).
If they paid taxes i would consider it as they would have a vested interest and be contributing. But i don't think that would be popular with Irish expats. That is my main issue. People living here do pay and live with the consequences of whatever Govt comes to power. I think Irish born Citizens who have had some experience of residency should pay taxes if they want a vote. And if they did pay tax i would consider that fair.
You would not get disinterested individuals or disingenious parties interfering if in order to keep Irish citizenship you had to pay tax.
Or at least you had to pay it to vote.
How does the American expat tax system work Southsiderosie? And does it involve alot of paperwork or bureaucracy with youbeing overseas?
And is the tax unpopular with American citizens abroad?(well all taxes are unpopular). Also what about if American citizens have children born abroad? Do they obtain American citizenship? And if so do they pay tax and get the right to vote even if they have not ever resided in the states or been ? Are American citizens born outside the US obligated to pay tax to the US to keep their US citizenhsip and passport?0 -
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To be fair it is the current system which includes excluding Irish born citizens living abroad from voting which has us in the mess we are currently in taking orders from Germany.
You mean the current system in which the majority of Irish voters actually voted for this situation?
Because like it or not Irish people liing here voted for the fiscal treaty. And they voted Fianna Fáil in.
I did not but i accept their vote.
The idea that you want 'fix' us or dictate to us from the outside is why i am not liking this idea.
Like it or not Irish people voted for this manipulating the voting system to change that is not democratic.
Anyway all the Irish who left and are Irish born and have been residents (ie left in the last few years) voted that party in for years too.
If Irish citizens abroad paid tax to keep their citizenship like southsiderosie then fair enough they have a right to a vote.
Otherwise no.0 -
poeticseraphim wrote: »If they paid taxes i would consider it as they would have a vested interest and be contributing. But i don't think that would be popular with Irish expats. That is my main issue. People living here do pay and live with the consequences of whatever Govt comes to power. I think Irish born Citizens who have had some experience of residency should pay taxes if they want a vote. And if they did pay tax i would consider that fair.
You would not get disinterested individuals or disingenious parties interfering if in order to keep Irish citizenship you had to pay tax.
Or at least you had to pay it to vote."
So now your saying that the right to vote in Ireland should be dependent on paying taxation?
Does that mean you will now kick anybody who is below the poverty line and doesn't pay tax off the rolls? Are homeless people going to be denied the right to vote now as well? How about the unemployed? You are heading down a slippery slope there to other restrictions being placed on the right to vote.0 -
poeticseraphim wrote: »You mean the current system in which the majority of Irish voters actually voted for this situation?
Because like it or not Irish people liing here voted for the fiscal treaty. And they voted Fianna Fáil in.
I did not but i accept their vote.
The idea that you want 'fix' us or dictate to us from the outside is why i am not liking this idea.
Like it or not Irish people voted for this manipulating the voting system to change that is not democratic.
Anyway all the Irish who left and are Irish born and have been residents (ie left in the last few years) voted that party in for years too.
If Irish citizens abroad paid tax to keep their citizenship like southsiderosie then fair enough they have a right to a vote.
Otherwise no.
Well now your touching on a wider debate in terms of the structure of the overall political system in Ireland. That probably deserves it's own thread really. But I will just say here in general that yes I think in general the Irish political system has failed our country and we need a radical overhaul.
So are you also saying that paying tax should be a requirement for the right to vote in Ireland? It seems you are. Thus does that also mean we kick the poor who don't pay tax off the voting rolls? Do we say the homeless cannot vote? The unemployed? etc. This is a very dangerous slippery slope you are suggesting.0 -
poeticseraphim wrote: »If they paid taxes i would consider it as they would have a vested interest and be contributing. But i don't think that would be popular with Irish expats. That is my main issue. People living here do pay and live with the consequences of whatever Govt comes to power. I think Irish born Citizens who have had some experience of residency should pay taxes if they want a vote. And if they did pay tax i would consider that fair.
You would not get disinterested individuals or disingenious parties interfering if in order to keep Irish citizenship you had to pay tax.
Or at least you had to pay it to vote.
If Irish citizenship came with the same tax requirement as US citizenship, I doubt so many second and third generation Irish abroad would be so quick to apply for a passport!poeticseraphim wrote: »How does the American expat tax system work Southsiderosie? And does it involve alot of paperwork or bureaucracy with youbeing overseas?
And is the tax unpopular with American citizens abroad?(well all taxes are unpopular). Also what about if American citizens have children born abroad? Do they obtain American citizenship? And if so do they pay tax and get the right to vote even if they have not ever resided in the states or been ? Are American citizens born outside the US obligated to pay tax to the US to keep their US citizenhsip and passport?
Voting is actually pretty simple. Two months before an election, you notify your home constituency that you would like a ballot, and they will mail it to you anywhere in the world. You fill it out and mail it back.
The tax issue depends on what country you are living in, because some countries have bilateral tax agreements with the US. Where it becomes a pain in the hole is when you get local taxes taken out of your paycheck, but still have to pay US taxes - the US then gives you a tax rebate later on, but in the meantime, you are out of a huge chunk of change up front (this is at least how it works for Hong Kong, where my parents live). However, when I lived in Spain, American friends of mine who were locally employed could choose if they wanted to pay US or Spanish taxes, so I don't think they had to deal with the same 'double dip' issue.
Any child born abroad with at least one American parent is entitled to American citizenship. I am not sure how the tax issue works with dual citizenship though, and I think in order to be able to vote from abroad, you need to be registered somewhere in the US - in my experience, once you are registered it is almost impossible to get off of the list (unless you are part of a politicized voter purge).
Finally, I can't speak to the popularity of taxes, but seeing how other countries run their taxation systems and what they get out of it is pretty eye-opening. Having lived in Hong Kong, my parents are now converts to the relatively simple flat tax system.0 -
poeticseraphim wrote: »If they paid taxes i would consider it as they would have a vested interest and be contributing. But i don't think that would be popular with Irish expats. That is my main issue. People living here do pay and live with the consequences of whatever Govt comes to power. I think Irish born Citizens who have had some experience of residency should pay taxes if they want a vote. And if they did pay tax i would consider that fair.
You would not get disinterested individuals or disingenious parties interfering if in order to keep Irish citizenship you had to pay tax.
Or at least you had to pay it to vote."
So now your saying that the right to vote in Ireland should be dependent on paying taxation?
Does that mean you will now kick anybody who is below the poverty line and doesn't pay tax off the rolls? Are homeless people going to be denied the right to vote now as well? How about the unemployed? You are heading down a slippery slope there to other restrictions being placed on the right to vote.
:-) No i am not the homeless expats could vote too or those claiming dole however they MUST pay tax on any earnings:)
And that seems fair if you are homeless in your adopted country or claiming benefit then no you should not pay tax .
And this issue is perhaps not simply about voting. Maybe Irish expats should just pay tax for the privilege of having an Irish passport, it seems reasonable.
If you are below the poverty line you should be taxed or not taxed as those below the poverty line would be here.Prisoners should not be allowed vote while serving a sentence. All Irish citizens should pay tax. Apart from the vote arguement maybe they should.:-) ???
See :-) It's not Slippery at all;-)0 -
poeticseraphim wrote: »
:-) No i am not the homeless expats could vote too or those claiming dole however they MUST pay tax on any earnings:)
And that seems fair if you are homeless in your adopted country or claiming benefit then no you should not pay tax .
And this issue is perhaps not simply about voting. Maybe Irish expats should just pay tax for the privilege of having an Irish passport, it seems reasonable.
You love the idea of this bilateral tax agreement, but seem to be missing the point that it's only high-earners who get hit by it. Yes, that does bring in some money which is fine, but doesn't help your idea that it's immoral of people to vote without paying tax — the majority of middle-upper income earners would pay no further tax at all (apart from a few of our teachers in Dubai!), just have a bit of paperwork to do.0 -
poeticseraphim wrote: »
:-) No i am not the homeless expats could vote too or those claiming dole however they MUST pay tax on any earnings:)
And that seems fair if you are homeless in your adopted country or claiming benefit then no you should not pay tax .
And this issue is perhaps not simply about voting. Maybe Irish expats should just pay tax for the privilege of having an Irish passport, it seems reasonable.
If you are below the poverty line you should be taxed or not taxed as those below the poverty line would be here.Prisoners should not be allowed vote while serving a sentence. All Irish citizens should pay tax. Apart from the vote arguement maybe they should.:-) ???
See :-) It's not Slippery at all;-)
Are you being serious or just joking around? I was taking about homeles, unemployed and people living below the poverty line in Ireland. You seem to be saying that paying tax is a requiremnet to vote. I am making the point that if this were to be the case many people currently eligible to vote in Ireland would be kicked off the voting rolls and that this mind set of making the right to vote dependant on the payment of tax is indeed a slippery slope.0 -
poeticseraphim wrote: »
Are you being serious or just joking around? I was taking about homeles, unemployed and people living below the poverty line in Ireland. You seem to be saying that paying tax is a requiremnet to vote. I am making the point that if this were to be the case many people currently eligible to vote in Ireland would be kicked off the voting rolls and that this mind set of making the right to vote dependant on the payment of tax is indeed a slippery slope.
No i am not saying paying tax should be a requirement to vote...i am saying that if you are working paying tax should be a requirement to be an Irish citizen like for Americans even if it is not much.
You misunderstand me.:-)
Of course those who are impoverished should still be allowed to vote they did not choose misfortune.
You seem to think Irish expats should give nothing back. If you want to be an American citizen you pay something...even something small...
The same could work for the Irish .
As i said it's not slippery at all.
Of course expats who are unemployed or impoverished could still vote...but Irish expats who work should contribute as citizens:)0 -
poeticseraphim wrote: »
No i am not saying paying tax should be a requirement to vote...i am saying that if you are working paying tax should be a requirement to be an Irish citizen like for Americans even if it is not much.
You misunderstand me.:-)
Of course those who are impoverished should still be allowed to vote they did not choose misfortune.
You seem to think Irish expats should give nothing back. If you want to be an American citizen you pay something...even something small...
The same could work for the Irish .
As i said it's not slippery at all.
Of course expats who are unemployed or impoverished could still vote...but Irish expats who work should contribute as citizens:)
People don't become an American citizen based on whether or not they pay tax, just as an American citizen they commit a crime by not filing tax return — there's a difference. It's not like they can give up citizenship if they choose not to pay tax.
& apart from the wealthy, the majority of Americans abroad pay nothing for their vote or citizenship, try as you might to ignore that.0 -
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poeticseraphim wrote: »
People don't become an American citizen based on whether or not they pay tax, just as an American citizen they commit a crime by not filing tax return — there's a difference. It's not like they can give up citizenship if they choose not to pay tax.
& apart from the wealthy, the majority of Americans abroad pay nothing for their vote or citizenship, try as you might to ignore that.
Actually they often do give up citizenship to avoid double taxation.
And yes most Americans DO contribute somehing.
No they don't become Americans based on whether they pay tax...but with being an American citizen comes the responsibility of tax and if they don'y pay it they are taken to prison and lose their vote.
The people who don't pay go to prison and lose their vote.
Anyway that is AMERICA ..it's fine for them if they are fine with it.
Any legal advice to the Dáil has never been favourable.
There would need to be a constitutional referendum on it legally anyway and i don't see it passing.0
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