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Property tax to be passed onto tenants? No thanks.
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I do believe I said "IF..."
and if you read my post, you'd see that I was disagreeing to the post that said
But anyhoo's, the government are already doing an excellent job at getting various classes fighting amongst ourselves...
Well it won't be taken away - that;s for sure and I think the reason that we are fighting is that some landlords want to pass on the charge to tenants - that's unfair. I really believe that tenants will be hit with their own charge in about 3 months - the mini budget that will no doubt have to come in because there is no growth in this economy, and that is what they based the last budget on.
We're in for a rough 2012 to be honest.0 -
Join Date:Posts: 30614
We're in for a rough 2012 to be honest.
If we sign up for the EU Financial 'Mini-Compact' (they don't want to call it a treaty), we will be signing up to reduce our budget deficit to a maximum of .5% of GDP in perpetuity.
This means- inclusive of interest repayments on debt, we will be allowed run a deficit of a maximum of 0.5% of GDP........
To comply with this- we will have to further increase taxation/cut public expenditure by 16-17 billion at current figures (and if our economy contracts- by even more!!!!!)
However bad 2012 may be- it'll be a cakewalk compared to future years, if this gets through.......
The government have signed up to not cutting headline social welfare rates. This is the extent of what has been guaranteed. It is the weekly dole and pensions, full stop, nothing else whatsoever.
Rent allowance, fuel allowance, bin allowances, free tv licences, free travel etc- are all fair game.
For those in work- who are covered by a similar guarantee to not increase headline tax rates- fair game would include:
Increased car tax, more road tolls, higher VAT, higher excise, lower allowances etc
We may not abolish schemes such as rent-allowance- but we certainly will slash and burn in ways people can only imagine in their wildest nightmares.
We now have taxation income at 1997 levels, however expenditure at 2005 levels- does not compute, does not compute, does not compute.....................0 -
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Maybe not taken away, but what if they lessen the maximum? You'll still be eligible, but you'll have to go into a small house in a not so nice area.
I can see them doing this before they go open season on the pensioners.
I don't believe that for a second - what you are proposing here is that "everyone" else takes a cut - but landlords don't? Where will the people already in the small house in the not so nice area go?
Now before you say "well landlord have taken cuts" - so have tenants. Landlords will be faced with the choice, reduce your rents or lose your tenant, risk a vacant period and re-advertise.
It will be the case that those landlords who are at the pin of their collars will have to cut a deal of some kind with the bank.0 -
I love the way people are delighted that landlords have to pay all these extra charges. Dont gloat too much because, while the economic conditions may not allow a landlord to pass on these charges at the moment, they will be passed on when conditions change.
Then all those extra charges wished upon the landlord will come back to you.
Any cost for any business is passed on to the customer.0 -
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CricketDude wrote: »I love the way people are delighted that landlords have to pay all these extra charges. Dont gloat too much because, while the economic conditions may not allow a landlord to pass on these charges at the moment, they will be passed on when conditions change.
Then all those extra charges wished upon the landlord will come back to you.
Any cost for any business is passed on to the customer.
Personally I'm not delighted, no more delighted than my landlord is because I am losing 25% of my tax credits this year.
When conditions change, I presume you mean when the economy lifts, when we start getting wage increases, when the cost of living goes down and the rental market picks up again..
That's the way the market works - in the boom landlords made plenty of money charging high rents, now it's tenants turn to avail of cheaper rents and like all things cyclical the landlords will rise again (or their rents will)....0 -
Personally I'm not delighted, no more delighted than my landlord is because I am losing 25% of my tax credits this year.
When conditions change, I presume you mean when the economy lifts, when we start getting wage increases, when the cost of living goes down and the rental market picks up again..
That's the way the market works - in the boom landlords made plenty of money charging high rents, now it's tenants turn to avail of cheaper rents and like all things cyclical the landlords will rise again (or their rents will)....
Im sure they are making plenty of money now too. Maybe the odd one is skint. But that doesnt change the fact that all these extra charges that people are wishing onto their landlords will only come back to haunt themselves in future. Expenses are ALWAYS passed on at some stage. If they cant pass it on now, they will the minute they get a chance. Rents are already on the increase again in Dublin.
People should be careful what they wish for.0 -
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Cuddlesworth wrote: »Wishful thinking there.
I dont really care one way or the other which way rents are going. But the daft report was where I read it.
There is far too much wishing ill will on other people going on in Ireland for my liking. Especially when its badly thought out and just wished on others for the sake of seeing someone get a bad turn.0 -
CricketDude wrote: »I dont really care one way or the other which way rents are going. But the daft report was where I read it.
There is far too much wishing ill will on other people going on in Ireland for my liking. Especially when its badly thought out and just wished on others for the sake of seeing someone get a bad turn.
My rent is going down next month and so is a couple I know who live in Ranelagh.0 -
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Join Date:Posts: 30614
Spiritofthekop wrote: »My rent is going down next month and so is a couple I know who live in Ranelagh.
I know several families for whom rent in Lucan is falling (and in one case significantly- by almost 30%), however I also know of cases in Lucan (different area) where rent is rising.
It really is swings and roundabouts.
Anecdotal evidence points to certain areas of Dublin and Galway having increasing rents (based on very small samples)- while other areas continue to fall.
Note- Dec/Jan/Feb/March tend to be the slowest part of the year for falls in rent, and when canny tenants are most likely to find their landlords amenable to considering lowering rent. April- to Nov is when its easiest to find new tenants.0 -
CricketDude wrote: »Im sure they are making plenty of money now too. Maybe the odd one is skint. But that doesnt change the fact that all these extra charges that people are wishing onto their landlords will only come back to haunt themselves in future. Expenses are ALWAYS passed on at some stage. If they cant pass it on now, they will the minute they get a chance. Rents are already on the increase again in Dublin.
People should be careful what they wish for.
You have the market backwards I'm afraid. I would say that the odd landlord is NOT in difficult and the majority of them are.
Also, when you say that expenses are already passed on -you are mistaken.
When an "investor" buys a property to let then he takes all these things into account on paying for the property, taxes, maintenance, free periods, cost of borrowing and so on. The rent is dictated by the market - the market is dictated by demand and to what people can afford to pay - not by the landlords outgoings.
you are naively of the belief that landlords who are struggling to meet their BTL mortgages, their PPR mortgages and cannot cope with the new charges, that it will be as simple as passing these costs on - at some stage down the road? This simply will not happen, much like those who bought during the boom will never recover the money - even when activity returns to the market.
There will be debt restructuring of some kind down the road, it's already happening at some scale.
The market always decides, not landlords.0 -
CricketDude wrote: »I dont really care one way or the other which way rents are going. But the daft report was where I read it.
There is far too much wishing ill will on other people going on in Ireland for my liking. Especially when its badly thought out and just wished on others for the sake of seeing someone get a bad turn.
The Daft report is based on asking prices isn't it? Personally I couldn't care less myself but here's the thing that annoys me, when facts are being pointed out to landlords it's called "ill will" - it's not ill will - it's reality and landlords need to get to grips with it.0 -
You have the market backwards I'm afraid. I would say that the odd landlord is NOT in difficult and the majority of them are.
Also, when you say that expenses are already passed on -you are mistaken.
When an "investor" buys a property to let then he takes all these things into account on paying for the property, taxes, maintenance, free periods, cost of borrowing and so on. The rent is dictated by the market - the market is dictated by demand and to what people can afford to pay - not by the landlords outgoings.
you are naively of the belief that landlords who are struggling to meet their BTL mortgages, their PPR mortgages and cannot cope with the new charges, that it will be as simple as passing these costs on - at some stage down the road? This simply will not happen, much like those who bought during the boom will never recover the money - even when activity returns to the market.
There will be debt restructuring of some kind down the road, it's already happening at some scale.
The market always decides, not landlords.
I think you are being the naive one here.
Do you seriously thing that the majority of rental properties in Ireland were all bought for full mortgages by people for BTL between 2000 and 2007. Do you seriously thing the majority of rental properties in Ireland are in negative equity. I would say the opposite.
And you havent read my post properly either. Read it again.CricketDude wrote: »Im sure they are making plenty of money now too. Maybe the odd one is skint. But that doesnt change the fact that all these extra charges that people are wishing onto their landlords will only come back to haunt themselves in future. Expenses are ALWAYS passed on at some stage. If they cant pass it on now, they will the minute they get a chance. Rents are already on the increase again in Dublin.
People should be careful what they wish for.0 -
The Daft report is based on asking prices isn't it? Personally I couldn't care less myself but here's the thing that annoys me, when facts are being pointed out to landlords it's called "ill will" - it's not ill will - it's reality and landlords need to get to grips with it.
Nevertheless, everywhere you turn in Ireland these days, someone is delighting in anothers misfortune. Its like a disease. And unique to the Irish from my experience.0 -
CricketDude wrote: »I think you are being the naive one here.
Do you seriously thing that the majority of rental properties in Ireland were all bought for full mortgages by people for BTL between 2000 and 2007. Do you seriously thing the majority of rental properties in Ireland are in negative equity. I would say the opposite.
And you havent read my post properly either. Read it again.
No -I read your post correctly.
Please see these links:
http://misc.mortgagebrokers.ie/images/blogimages/2011/February2011/2011-02-20%20Sunday%20Times%20'Buy%20to%20Fret'.pdf
http://www.welfare.ie/EN/Press/Speeches/2011/Pages/sp220911.aspx
http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/property/2011/1215/1224309094094.
In 2009, 90,000 PAYE workers filed tax returns with rental income on them.
KBC bank has a BTL mortgage book of 3.3 billion, in February 2011 almost 11% were in arrears of 90 days or more (it doesn't breakdown how many are 30 days, 60 days).
AIB BTL mortgage book is 28% of its total mortgage book, last year almost 6% were in arrears of 90 days or more (again no total for 30 and 60 days).
Rent supplement is being paid to 50% of the private rental sector.
The BTL market is in serious trouble, it just hasn't exploded yet - it's on the way - and that's not ill will - that's fact.0 -
No -I read your post correctly.
Please see these links:
http://misc.mortgagebrokers.ie/images/blogimages/2011/February2011/2011-02-20%20Sunday%20Times%20'Buy%20to%20Fret'.pdf
http://www.welfare.ie/EN/Press/Speeches/2011/Pages/sp220911.aspx
http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/property/2011/1215/1224309094094.
In 2009, 90,000 PAYE workers filed tax returns with rental income on them.
KBC bank has a BTL mortgage book of 3.3 billion, in February 2011 almost 11% were in arrears of 90 days or more (it doesn't breakdown how many are 30 days, 60 days).
AIB BTL mortgage book is 28% of its total mortgage book, last year almost 6% were in arrears of 90 days or more (again no total for 30 and 60 days).
Rent supplement is being paid to 50% of the private rental sector.
The BTL market is in serious trouble, it just hasn't exploded yet - it's on the way - and that's not ill will - that's fact.
Something that hasnt happened is not fact.
It might happen, but that does not make it fact.
What you really need here is a figure of the percentage of rental properties which have no, or small mortgages outstanding on them. Then you can take the rental market as a whole and see how much trouble people are in.
Even then, the fact that an investment property has a large mortgage on it doesnt mean its in trouble either. It actually makes sense to have a mortgage outstanding on an investment property even if you have the cash at hand to pay it all off.
That claim that "Rent supplement is being paid to 50% of the private rental sector." is suspect too. If thats the case how come there are so many threads on here with people complaining that they cant find accommodation where rent allowance is accepted. Surely if 50% of all the properties accept rent allowance they would easily find one when looking.
Also, What is the definition of the BTL market that you are using. Its not the total rental residential market im betting.
No doubt there is pressure on a lot of landlords. But they are not the majority of the residential market at all.
I have one friend who bought 4 houses between 2002 and 2008. He is screwed now.
I have several friends who have been collecting houses and apartments since the early 90's. They are still swimming in money still.
Not all landlords are skint.0 -
CricketDude wrote: »Something that hasnt happened is not fact.
It might happen, but that does not make it fact.
What you really need here is a figure of the percentage of rental properties which have no, or small mortgages outstanding on them. Then you can take the rental market as a whole and see how much trouble people are in.
Even then, the fact that an investment property has a large mortgage on it doesnt mean its in trouble either. It actually makes sense to have a mortgage outstanding on an investment property even if you have the cash at hand to pay it all off.
That claim that "Rent supplement is being paid to 50% of the private rental sector." is suspect too. If thats the case how come there are so many threads on here with people complaining that they cant find accommodation where rent allowance is accepted. Surely if 50% of all the properties accept rent allowance they would easily find one when looking.
Also, What is the definition of the BTL market that you are using. Its not the total rental residential market im betting.
No doubt there is pressure on a lot of landlords. But they are not the majority of the residential market at all.
I have one friend who bought 4 houses between 2002 and 2008. He is screwed now.
I have several friends who have been collecting houses and apartments since the early 90's. They are still swimming in money still.
Not all landlords are skint.
Seriousl? "Something that HAPPENED is not a fact".....
You need to figure out what % of BTL properties have a small or no O/S mortgage on them - I have provided my links, so provide yours?
http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/ireland/2011/1012/1224305642677.html
Rent Supplement is paid to 50% of the private rental market -
This is a huge scheme. The Department of Social Protection in Ireland funds about half the private tenants in the residential lettings market in the country: in June 2011, there were 97,000 recipients of rent supplement nationwide. As of the 2006 Census, there were just 150,000 households privately renting in the country. Even if that is an underestimate and the true figure was 200,000 and has since grown to 300,000 (which would require the ‘would-have-been first-time-buyer’ cohort to grow significantly faster than the ‘we came here to build properties and have since headed home’ cohort), the Department controls a third of the market. This is huge market power. And just like in the case of electricity, where the same Department is trying to get a better discount out of the ESB than the current meagre 1%, the Department should use it to the advantage of the taxpayer.
http://www.ronanlyons.com/2011/11/29/rent-supplement-time-for-taxpayers-to-use-their-market-power/
As to the definition of BTL market - what do you mean? That's the area we are discussing is it not?0 -
Anyone renting out there who thinks this will not be passed on to the "poor suffering tenants" is incredibly stupid.
Renters - don't like giving your evil landlords money each month?? Then get a mortgage and buy your own fcikun houses. Problem solved.
This is the problem when communists like Labour get into power. The folks that voted for them are to blame for this tax, and they will be the ones paying for it.
Welcome to Opposite World, where the consequences of a centre-right government artificially inflating a property bubble so high that the IMF were handed the keys to the budget and given carte blanche to tell us what to do with it - namely, this property tax - is the fault of a liberal-left junior coalition partner that's been in power for less than a year after over a decade of sitting on the sidelines. Because, you know, us lefty-liberal types are just head-over-heels about the IMF.
Will this be passed on? I doubt it. In a market that's already on a downward trajectory (I know certain areas of Dublin and Cork are bucking the trend, but would they if RA was cut by 20% and NAMA released all properties for bidding?), I just can't imagine many tenants agreeing to pay an increased price. Especially not when a tenant can find a new apartment far easier than a landlord can find a new tenant, and especially not over something so small as 300 a year - for most places, you'd need to find and install a new tenant within a fortnight to avoid finishing up worse off for the year, and that's assuming you can even find someone willing to pay 25 quid a month more than the last guy.
To be honest, the best most landlords might get for this is less of a rent reduction in 2012 than they were already looking at. Even that may be more than most get. It'll stay that way till it's easier to find tenants than homes.
Incidentally: I think it's a good thing to have decent-sized property taxes, aimed at homeowners. It's a lot harder to have a ridiculous property bubble when the cost of simply holding onto the property is set significantly above zero.0 -
desertcircus wrote: »Welcome to Opposite World, where the consequences of a centre-right government artificially inflating a property bubble so high that the IMF were handed the keys to the budget and given carte blanche to tell us what to do with it - namely, this property tax - is the fault of a liberal-left junior coalition partner that's been in power for less than a year after over a decade of sitting on the sidelines. Because, you know, us lefty-liberal types are just head-over-heels about the IMF.
Will this be passed on? I doubt it. In a market that's already on a downward trajectory (I know certain areas of Dublin and Cork are bucking the trend, but would they if RA was cut by 20% and NAMA released all properties for bidding?), I just can't imagine many tenants agreeing to pay an increased price. Especially not when a tenant can find a new apartment far easier than a landlord can find a new tenant, and especially not over something so small as 300 a year - for most places, you'd need to find and install a new tenant within a fortnight to avoid finishing up worse off for the year, and that's assuming you can even find someone willing to pay 25 quid a month more than the last guy.
To be honest, the best most landlords might get for this is less of a rent reduction in 2012 than they were already looking at. Even that may be more than most get. It'll stay that way till it's easier to find tenants than homes.
Incidentally: I think it's a good thing to have decent-sized property taxes, aimed at homeowners. It's a lot harder to have a ridiculous property bubble when the cost of simply holding onto the property is set significantly above zero.
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