Property tax to be passed onto tenants? No thanks.

oceanclub

I see Irish landlords already organising yet again to screw their tenants:

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/breaking/2011/1215/breaking5.html

Meanwhile, landlords have announced they have no choice but to pass the household charge on to tenants.

The Irish Property Owners’ Association (IPOA) said landlords have adopted the user pays principle, but insisted this was not a rent increase.

Hilarious. Of course, during the property bubble, landlords made vast profits with huge annual hikes in rent even while the mortgage on their properties went down due to interest rate cuts. Now, during the bust, it's time to screw tenants year again. There really is a need in this country for an Irish Property Tenant Association to fight these vested interests.

P.

wildefalcon

I've had to emigrate - No-one will buy my home.

So, I've to rent it out. I couldn't stand to see it rot into the ground.

Fine.

I pay the PTSB.

Fine.

I pay the Non-Principal Residence Tax.

Fine.

And now I have to pay the Principal Residence tax too?

WTF?

And none of these taxes are allowable against the rental income?


And I get docked at source for the tax? BEFORE EXPENSES!

And, get this, because I've been forced to emigrate because of the INCOMPETENCE of the government:

So, if I break even I'll be doign well.

And to cap it all:

I DON'T EVEN HAVE A VOTE ANYMORE!

Stop whinnying - if the rent in Ireland is too high, emigrate.

Also be grateful you still can vote - for now.

edit - sorry about the rant - very sore topic - why should people screwed to the wall with stupid mortgages pay the tax when those who rent don't? It's a tax on Homes, not houses.

blah

Legally, who is responsible?

Like if you're renting a house, and you don't pay the TV Licence, you can't turn around and tell the landlord he's responsible, because legally he's not.

So if it isn't paid, who's legally responsible, tenant or landlord?

At the moment I'm assuming it's the landlord, if mine chooses to pass on one third of the €100 charge on a monthly basis, he'll be raising my rent by €2.77, which is pretty stingy, I'll pay it, but I would think he was cheap.

oceanclub

wildefalcon wrote: »

Stop whinnying - if the rent in Ireland is too high, emigrate.

THis may come as a complete shock, but despite their self-pity, landlords aren't the only ones having hard times here. I've seen my wages go down, my taxes go up and my wife lose her job. For the first time in years, I find myself checking my bank balance every week to see can I afford bills. So forgive me if I don't rush to pay the debts of those were were happy to screw us during the "good" times with absolutely no reason whatsoever. Emigration is on the cards, but so is moving out of an apartment where I've always been a good tenant.

As for legal responsibility, it is the home owner's. It's a property tax, as mandated by the IMF agreement.

http://www.moneyguideireland.com/household-charge-property-tax-more-details.html

Owners of residential property will be liable for the charge on each residential property they own as at 1st January 2012.
Tenants will not have to pay the Household Charge.

If it is passed onto tenants, it simply makes a mockery of the whole point of having a property tax.

P.

ballsymchugh

should resemble the council tax in the uk, where the person living in the house pays the tax.
enda kenny said it's to pay for local services, and it's the person in the house that'll be using them.

edit:
@oceanclub, looks like the IMF say one thing, the taoiseach says something slightly different.
either way, they have to sort that one out soon

oceanclub

ballsymchugh wrote: »

should resemble the council tax in the uk, where the person living in the house pays the tax.
enda kenny said it's to pay for local services, and it's the person in the house that'll be using them.

And if wishes were fishes. It's not; it's a property tax on property owners.

P.

roast

wildefalcon wrote: »

why should people screwed to the wall with stupid mortgages pay the tax when those who rent don't?

Why should people screwed to the wall with high rent rates pay the tax when the landlords don't?

Either way, it's a ****ty situation...

wildefalcon wrote: »

It's a tax on Homes, not houses.

It's a property tax, for the owners.

wildefalcon

oceanclub wrote: »

THis may come as a complete shock, but despite their self-pity, landlords aren't the only ones having hard times here. I've seen my wages go down, my taxes go up and my wife lose her job. For the first time in years, I find myself checking my bank balance every week to see can I afford bills. So forgive me if I don't rush to pay the debts of those were were happy to screw us during the "good" times with absolutely no reason whatsoever. Emigration is on the cards, but so is moving out of an apartment where I've always been a good tenant.

As for legal responsibility, it is the home owner's. It's a property tax, as mandated by the IMF agreement.

http://www.moneyguideireland.com/household-charge-property-tax-more-details.html



If it is passed onto tenants, it simply makes a mockery of the whole point of having a property tax.

P.

So? I've lost my job, so has the wife. I've lost my home, my country, my friends and have had to emigrate TWICE in two decades.

I didn't buy this house as an "investment", it was my HOME!

And now it's not.


My point is I already pay property tax, and now have to pay another one, whereas the tenant, who is USING the local services, doesn't. The tenant also still has the vote in local elections.

Mockery?

Double taxation, no representation.

The people who use the services don't pay for them. Now THAT'S a mockery.

What next? I pay their water bills? Their sewerage bills? Their heating bills? Their nappy bills?

It gets to the stag where no amount of rent covers the cost, and we end up with the stupid position where there are empty houses and people looking for places to stay. Is that what you want?

Oh, and legally the second property tax is the landlords responsibility - read the damn government blub and you will see that.

Typical Ireland, no wonder we can't run a country, couldn't run anything.

wildefalcon

roast wrote: »

Why should people screwed to the wall with high rent rates pay the tax when the landlords don't?

Either way, it's a ****ty situation...



It's a property tax, for the owners.

Local Property taxes can be and should be on the residents, as they are the people using and benefit from the local services, fair is fair.

Gandhi

The tenants are going to end up paying anyway. The landlord is a businessman, and the tax effectively raises his cost of doing business. He can either raise the rent to cover it, or reduce the time or money he spends maintaining the property.

If there was an annual tax on the ownership of cappuccino machines, prices at coffee shops would go up to compensate for it, and the customers end up paying the tax. If fuel prices go up, shipping and delivery companies have to raise their prices and customers end up paying.

Whether it is labeled as a separate surcharge, or rolled into the sticker price is irrelevant.

big syke

The IPOA has advised landlords to write to tenants outlining a monthly service charge of €25 (€300 per year) to cover the household charge and the second home tax. This is effectively paying a lanlords charge on owning a second home as well as the €100 property tax....Are they actually for real? SERIOUSLY??? So i have to pay my landlord for his luxury of owning a second home....

Source: http://www.breakingnews.ie/ireland/tenants-should-pick-up-landlords-household-charge-ipoa-532358.html#ixzz1gccXuG5f

OS119

Gandhi wrote: »

The tenants are going to end up paying anyway. The landlord is a businessman, and the tax effectively raises his cost of doing business. He can either raise the rent to cover it, or reduce the time or money he spends maintaining the property.

If there was an annual tax on the ownership of cappuccino machines, prices at coffee shops would go up to compensate for it, and the customers end up paying the tax. If fuel prices go up, shipping and delivery companies have to raise their prices and customers end up paying.

Whether it is labeled as a separate surcharge, or rolled into the sticker price is irrelevant.

agreed - its just an other cost of doing business - like the mortgage, the insurance, the maintainence, the legal fees, the 'finding a tenant' costs - all of them get passed onto the price of the product. now, the LL may find that if he puts the whole cost into the rent he may have fun finding a tenant, but thats a decision he'll have to make according to market conditions.

i'm pretty stunned that anyone thought that this cost wouldn't get passed to the tenant in one form or other - it shows a pretty poor understanding of business.

mambo

Gandhi wrote: »

The tenants are going to end up paying anyway. The landlord is a businessman, and the tax effectively raises his cost of doing business. He can either raise the rent to cover it, or reduce the time or money he spends maintaining the property.

If there was an annual tax on the ownership of cappuccino machines, prices at coffee shops would go up to compensate for it, and the customers end up paying the tax. If fuel prices go up, shipping and delivery companies have to raise their prices and customers end up paying.

Whether it is labeled as a separate surcharge, or rolled into the sticker price is irrelevant.

Correct, though for the IPOA to call for all landlords to implement the same increase would amount to price-fixing, no?

Tayla

OS119 wrote: »

i'm pretty stunned that anyone thought that this cost wouldn't get passed to the tenant in one form or other - it shows a pretty poor understanding of business.

Maybe people thought that the government would offer protection to tenants in relation to this, it would have been probably impossible for them to police it but I think that's what people were expecting.

jmayo

wildefalcon wrote: »

I've had to emigrate - No-one will buy my home.

If you bought during the boom and have a massive mortgage it is bad luck, but it damm well doesn't mean somebody else has to take on your mortgage and pay above the market value for it.

wildefalcon wrote: »

And to cap it all:

I DON'T EVEN HAVE A VOTE ANYMORE!

You don't have a vote because you do not live here.
You may have investments here, but if I have investments in the States or China it doesn't mean I get to vote there.
Unlike some countries we do not let citizens who have emigrated and live elsewhere have a vote.
Maybe it might have to do with fact that we could have a bigger chunk of the electorate living outside the state than in it and that could have untold consequences in elections.

wildefalcon wrote: »

Stop whinnying - if the rent in Ireland is too high, emigrate.

Also be grateful you still can vote - for now.

edit - sorry about the rant - very sore topic - why should people screwed to the wall with stupid mortgages pay the tax when those who rent don't? It's a tax on Homes, not houses.

And it is a sore topic when I see people who took on massive mortgages whinge about it now.
Did your tenants, or the rest of us, ask you to take out a massive mortgage ?
Fair enough you have lost your jobs, but don't start blaming other people for the size of mortgage you signed up to.

Is this not a property tax ?
Who said it was a residence tax ?
You should be paying property taxes because you will eventually own, get it OWN, the house whereas the renter will not.
It is an asset to you not the renter.

wildefalcon wrote: »

So? I've lost my job, so has the wife. I've lost my home, my country, my friends and have had to emigrate TWICE in two decades.

That is bad luck, but it doesn't mean you can lump all your debts on someone else.
May I ask if you were involved in the construction industry ?

wildefalcon wrote: »

I didn't buy this house as an "investment", it was my HOME!

And now it's not.

That is unfortunate, but your home has turned into an investment, be it a bad one and basically you are whinging that the renter is not going to cover all your costs.

wildefalcon wrote: »

My point is I already pay property tax, and now have to pay another one, whereas the tenant, who is USING the local services, doesn't. The tenant also still has the vote in local elections.

Does the tenant not pay bin charges ?
They will be the ones paying the water charges.
BTW who name is on the deeds ?

In the grand scheme of things you pay very little annual property tax relative to some other countries. Take a look at the states and property tax levels there.

wildefalcon wrote: »

Mockery?

Double taxation, no representation.

So if I own investments overseas and pay tax on them I should get a vote there ?

wildefalcon wrote: »

The people who use the services don't pay for them. Now THAT'S a mockery.

What next? I pay their water bills? Their sewerage bills? Their heating bills? Their nappy bills?

The water charges like refuse charges will be borne by the user not the landlord.
It will be paid by the person who is using them.

EDIT: the landlord can try and pass on these new costs to the tenant, but it is up to the tenant/market to decide whether rents can be upped to pay for this extra cost.

This tax is not meant to be for water or refuse, etc.
I think the way Kenny phrased it was wrong.
Although a chunk of this tax will probably be diverted to the local authorities just like a chunk of my car tax probably goes to paying for dole and rent allowance for landlords. :rolleyes:
BTW are your tenants getting rent allowance ?

wildefalcon wrote: »

It gets to the stag where no amount of rent covers the cost, and we end up with the stupid position where there are empty houses and people looking for places to stay. Is that what you want?

So bacially you are complaining because you want someone else to pay your mortgage on your asset ?

Treehouse72

big syke wrote: »

The IPOA has advised landlords to write to tenants...

In my case they'd have more luck writing to Santa.

Tayla

jmayo wrote: »

You should be paying property taxes because you will eventually own, get it OWN, the house whereas the renter will not.
It is an asset to you not the renter.

This is the most important point I think, most people are struggling to make ends meet, the landlords and the tenants but at the end of the day you will own this in the future, they will have no claim to it even if they rented it off you for the whole term of the mortgage.

oceanclub

If landlords are dumb enough to send such a letter to long-term stable tenants who pay every month on time and maintain their property, I hope tenants respond pointing the economic realities of finding new tenants in this climate.

P.

Tayla

Also if landlords decide to pass this on to tenants what will happen when the tax goes up?

I heard the €100 charge will be the same next year but what happens when it's in the hundreds or thousands.

Small houses with a lesser tax aren't going to be suitable for all and if the tax is very expensive on a larger house and the tax is passed on to the tenants then how will they afford to live there?

Ray Palmer

Anybody who think a LL not paying his taxes is going to pay this charge is dillusional. The charge is meant to be for local services so should be charged to the tenant as they pay they use them as such.

It will be passed on and I know I will. They have increased the tax on rental income by adding PRSI to it. Very irritating having always paid my taxes while the government fail to chase and fine those who don't pay it on their rental income.

snaps

So what exactly are these services that this household charge (Tax) covering?

wildefalcon

jmayo wrote: »

If you bought during the boom and have a massive mortgage it is bad luck, but it damm well doesn't mean somebody else has to take on your mortgage and pay above the market value for it.

I don't have a massive mortgage - and I charge market rent, how else would I get a tenant? Don't get personal.

You don't have a vote because you do not live here.
You may have investments here, but if I have investments in the States or China it doesn't mean I get to vote there.
Unlike some countries we do not let citizens who have emigrated and live elsewhere have a vote.
Maybe it might have to do with fact that we could have a bigger chunk of the electorate living outside the state than in it and that could have untold consequences in elections.

Perhaps we'd get better policicians?

And it is a sore topic when I see people who took on massive mortgages whinge about it now.
Did your tenants, or the rest of us, ask you to take out a massive mortgage ?
Fair enough you have lost your jobs, but don't start blaming other people for the size of mortgage you signed up to.

I DIDN'T get a mortgage! I saved and bought a house I could afford, then I did it up myself = and I don't blame anyone else. I Just get angry when people whinge about having to pay for stuff they use.

Is this not a property tax ?
Who said it was a residence tax ?
You should be paying property taxes because you will eventually own, get it OWN, the house whereas the renter will not.
It is an asset to you not the renter.

I PAY A TAX already - why should I pay two?

That is bad luck, but it doesn't mean you can lump all your debts on someone else.
May I ask if you were involved in the construction industry ?

No, I wasn't, and I don't lump my debts on to someone else. I pay my fair share, and expect others to

That is unfortunate, but your home has turned into an investment, be it a bad one and basically you are whinging that the renter is not going to cover all your costs.

No, I'm angry because I have to pay theirs.

Does the tenant not pay bin charges ?
They will be the ones paying the water charges.
BTW who name is on the deeds ?

In the grand scheme of things you pay very little annual property tax relative to some other countries. Take a look at the states and property tax levels there.



So if I own investments overseas and pay tax on them I should get a vote there ?



The water charges like refuse charges will be borne by the user not the landlord.
It will be paid by the person who is using them.

This tax is not meant to be for water or refuse, etc.
I think the way Kenny phrased it was wrong.
Although a chunk of this tax will probably be diverted to the local authorities just like a chunk of my car tax probably goes to paying for dole and rent allowance for landlords. :rolleyes:
BTW are your tenants getting rent allowance ?



So bacially you are complaining because you want someone else to pay your mortgage on your asset ?

No - I'm objecting to someone who gets without giving their fare share - I object to other tax dodgers, I object to greedy corrupt politicians who double claim expenses - I object to Senior Public and Civil Servants who get paid bonuses while the country falls apart.

Because If I don't then who the hell will.

Tazz T

It's a property tax - not a renters tax. If you want to rent out a property then you should pay it.

And I'm speaking as a property owner who has rented out property before. Passing on the second home tax as well as the household charge to tenants is ridiculous, it is not their property. You are providing them with a service which they pay you for. If you want raise the rent and let the market decide.

If you don't want to do it, don't rent out your home and don't come out with that crap about not being able to sell the property. You took the gamble when you bought it. You were probably coining it in in the past. Now you face the other side of the coin. Deal with it.

I'm stunned they're even considering passing on the second home tax to tenants who are paying these people for their only home.

zac8

If my landlord tries to land this on me I'll just move. There's plenty of choices out there.

Or maybe I should preempt him and request a rent reduction?

oceanclub

Ray Palmer wrote: »

Anybody who think a LL not paying his taxes is going to pay this charge is dillusional. The charge is meant to be for local services so should be charged to the tenant as they pay they use them as such.

It will be passed on and I know I will. They have increased the tax on rental income by adding PRSI to it. Very irritating having always paid my taxes while the government fail to chase and fine those who don't pay it on their rental income.

Landlords may _want_ to pass on any new taxes they get. However, my point is that tenants should not accept this situation. They should point out that, in the current climate, the cost of getting a new tenant will far outweigh any small monthly gain they make and hopefully restore some rationality.

There is no moral imperative for tenants to pay a landlord's tax any more than their is for my company to give me a payrise if my income tax goes up.

P.

wildefalcon

Tayla wrote: »

Also if landlords decide to pass this on to tenants what will happen when the tax goes up?

I heard the €100 charge will be the same next year but what happens when it's in the hundreds or thousands.

Small houses with a lesser tax aren't going to be suitable for all and if the tax is very expensive on a larger house and the tax is passed on to the tenants then how will they afford to live there?

How will someone who has a celtic tiger mortgage afford it, either? Sauce for the goose is sauce for the gander.

jmayo

Ray Palmer wrote: »

Anybody who think a LL not paying his taxes is going to pay this charge is dillusional. The charge is meant to be for local services so should be charged to the tenant as they pay they use them as such.

So what then are refuse charges and future water charges for ?
What other services are the tenants going to get for this charge ?
Are you of the belief that property owners should pay no property taxes ?

Ray Palmer wrote: »

It will be passed on and I know I will. They have increased the tax on rental income by adding PRSI to it. Very irritating having always paid my taxes while the government fail to chase and fine those who don't pay it on their rental income.

Have you reported the landlords who are not paying their taxes ?

BTW are some of your tenants on rent allowance ?
I would just like to know whether or not the taxpayers are already funding your investments as in the case of many landlords. :rolleyes:

bgo1

Naieve to think that tenants will not be the one paying this.

Maybe not this year when its E100 or next year but when it rises and new tenants move in it will be priced into the rent.

UK is perfect example, its seperate from the rent payment but renters pay the council the tax. Here, the goverment are just getting the landlords to price it in to the rent so less admin as less changes to the house ownership compared to constantly evolving tenants having to register to pay it.

Looks good as well for the goverment to say it is for home owners but hey ho thats the goverment tying to look good...they know renters will be the ones paying.

gerryo777

wildefalcon wrote: »

I've had to emigrate - No-one will buy my home.

So, I've to rent it out. I couldn't stand to see it rot into the ground.

Fine.

I pay the PTSB.

Fine.

I pay the Non-Principal Residence Tax.

Fine.

And now I have to pay the Principal Residence tax too?

WTF?

And none of these taxes are allowable against the rental income?


And I get docked at source for the tax? BEFORE EXPENSES!

And, get this, because I've been forced to emigrate because of the INCOMPETENCE of the government:

So, if I break even I'll be doign well.

And to cap it all:

I DON'T EVEN HAVE A VOTE ANYMORE!

Stop whinnying - if the rent in Ireland is too high, emigrate.

Also be grateful you still can vote - for now.

edit - sorry about the rant - very sore topic - why should people screwed to the wall with stupid mortgages pay the tax when those who rent don't? It's a tax on Homes, not houses.

If it's called a principle residence tax then whoever's principle residence it is should pay the tax. End of!!!

Jacknory

This is a household tax not a property tax. Whoever lives in said household pays for the services that go with it i.e. emptying council bins, use of water etc. To suggest the the person who owns the house but doesn't live there should pay for it is a joke.

Do people renting not avail of these services? Answer = YES.....so they should pay for them. I rent and don't see the logic in anyone saying that they shouldn't pay. The second property tax on the other hand should not be paid by the tenant.

Ray Palmer

jmayo wrote: »

So what then are refuse charges and future water charges for ?
What other services are the tenants going to get for this charge ?
Are you of the belief that property owners should pay no property taxes ?

You know the path, street light, roads, policing etc.. thoes thing are local services too. I don't agree with the charge point blank. It is a household charge becasaue it is meant to be the household. The governement have actually messed up and applied it incorrectly to meet EU agreements. It is meant to be the resident that pays. That is why them mention people on RA don't have to pay it in the dail. How would they ever of had to pay it if it is a property tax? LL already pay a property tax this is an additional charge. They also pay tax on their income and now additional PRSI.

jmayo wrote: »

Have you reported the landlords who are not paying their taxes ?

BTW are some of your tenants on rent allowance ?
I would just like to know whether or not the taxpayers are already funding your investments as in the case of many landlords. :rolleyes:

Yes reported people and they don't do anything.
Yes tenats on RA and that is the govenrment paying for a service I provide so they don't have to. They also paid me when I was a consultant on their IT systems. I also paid inheritance tax and paid stamp duty. I can assure you I have paid more tax than you.