Are you going to pay the household charge? [Part 1]

BarackPyjama

MightyBouche wrote: »

It's only €100. Everyone can find €100 when they want to.

How dare you be so arrogant as to tell people what they can and can't afford. I volunteer several times a week helping vulnerable people, many of whom can barely afford to put food on the table. But you're alright Jack, eh?

MightyBouche wrote: »

Is it worth a criminal record? Time in a jail cell? The potential interference in the selling of your home?

Ah yes. The threats. Are you sure you're not a FG/Labour wide boy

mickydoomsux

BarackPyjama wrote: »

How dare you be so arrogant as to tell people what they can and can't afford.

One of the major points of the no campaign is that people can't afford it.

So is it alright for them to decide what people can and can't afford?

MightyBouche

BarackPyjama wrote: »

Isn't that patriotic. So you don't want to see criminal investigations for those responsible for bankrupting the country and perhaps target them first as part and parcel of our economic restoration?

Oh but of course I do, if they can prove there has been laws broken of course. First and foremost? Hardly. What you're talking about takes time and in the mean time, other actions must take precedence. We have loans that must be paid.

Or jail time for any of the corrupt politicians who have made us one of the most indebted countries in the world?

Again, if they can find a law that has been broken and proof that someone broke it, I'm all for it.

You have no desire to see a more capable, honest and efficient government that will save the economy billions?

I'm quite happy with the current government and so are the majority of the country. Fine Gael would be the government leader again if there was an election held tomorrow. Approval ratings back that up. The swing voters have moved on to Sinn Fein from Labour so the junior partner may be different, but most people are happy with FG.

You just want to see the country back on its feet and the taxpayer (and home owner) foots the bill. Nice one.

Well, the citizens here created the debt the country is in, so surely they're going to be the ones paying it? The demand for credit was created by the people of Ireland, after all. Credit was given, now it has to be paid back.

Patriotism is for jingoistic retards in fairness.

Yes but I'd still hope for the best for the place I'm living in, as opposed to being anti-everything that may personally affect me in the name of overall progression.

BarackPyjama

mickydoomsux wrote: »

One of the major points of the no campaign is that people can't afford it.

So is it alright for them to decide what people can and can't afford?

No, that's up to the individual. Quite clearly many people can't.

MightyBouche

goz83 wrote: »

How dare you say that! I love my country! The spineless puppets in government need to understand we can't/won't take anymore. I'm not quite at the edge, but too many are already falling off and into real financial trouble. I see friends having to borrow from sharks to pay their bills, causing more pain.

Spineless? I don't believe so.

Perhaps your friends should have managed their finances a bit better, planned for a rainy day? I don't know anyone in such financial trouble but then I don't personally know anyone who stupidly overextended themselves and grabbed at every little bit of credit they could get their hands on merely to keep up with the financial "success" of others around them.

BarackPyjama wrote: »

How dare you be so arrogant as to tell people what they can and can't afford. I volunteer several times a week helping vulnerable people, many of whom can barely afford to put food on the table. But you're alright Jack, eh?

Oh come on. The ipad3 sold out in record time the other day. Christmas sales were through the roof here overall. There's still a lot of money in the economy and to say that the majority can't afford €100 is utter hogwash.

Ah yes. The threats. Are you sure you're not a FG/Labour wide boy

No, just being realistic. There are repercussions which people will have to face ranging from fines to criminal records. Criminal records, in particular, can have much longer lasting and undesired consequences than the people opposing this €100 charge might even foresee.

BarackPyjama

MightyBouche wrote: »

Well, the citizens here created the debt the country is in, so surely they're going to be the ones paying it? The demand for credit was created by the people of Ireland, after all. Credit was given, now it has to be paid back.

Wrong. If I'm not mistaken, people are still paying back their mortgages and still have to pay their loans and any leased credit back.

Our obscene national debt was created by forking out money to private bankers/unsecured bondholders. Private international debt has become Irish public debt. The people didn't create this mess, a failing of capitalism and ineptitude at government level has. Make no mistake about that.

The rest of your post makes me suspect you're a crony so I've little or no interest in discussing this matter with you further. Hope you're proud of raping the hardworking people of this country further.

mickydoomsux

BarackPyjama wrote: »

Quite clearly many people can't.

Have you got any data to back up that claim or are you just deciding for them that they can't afford it?

I'm not saying that there isn't at least one person in the entire country that will struggle to pay it but to say that it's any kind of significant number somewhat stretches credibility.

charlemont

MightyBouche wrote: »

I just want to see the country get back on its feet, the quickest it can.

What I just don't get is why you and the rest of the "don't register, don't pay" crowd hate Ireland so much?

We hate sharing our country with some people...

Maybe the question should be asked, Why are so many people willing to hand over their cash to an overbloated and wasteful system ?

It would be like bringing your car to a crap mechanic over and over again even after you were told he was crap.

Trying to make people out to hate Ireland because they won't pay, That's a new low.

MightyBouche

BarackPyjama wrote: »

Wrong. If I'm not mistaken, people are still paying back their mortgages and still have to pay their loans and any leased credit back.

Our obscene national debt was created by forking out money to private bankers/unsecured bondholders. Private international debt has become Irish public debt. The people didn't create this mess, a failing of capitalism and ineptitude at government level has. Make no mistake about that.

The rest of your post makes me suspect you're a crony so I've little or no interest in discussing this matter with you further. Hope you're proud of raping the hardworking people of this country further.

Rape? Getting a little over emotional, are we not?

You've made absolutely no points in this thread, just opposed everything said on fairly fruitless grounds. Like everything seen from the "don't register, don't pay" crowd I suppose.

A crony? No, I just see the situation for what it is. It's rather nice here in reality, perhaps some day you'll come and find out.

BarackPyjama

mickydoomsux wrote: »

Have you got any data to back up that claim or are you just deciding for them that they can't afford it?

I'm not saying that there isn't at least one person in the entire country that will struggle to pay it but to say that it's any kind of significant number somewhat stretches credibility.

Yeah. Shut up and take my money and all that. :rolleyes:

BarackPyjama

MightyBouche wrote: »

Rape? Getting a little over emotional, are we not?

You've made absolutely no points in this thread, just opposed everything said on fairly fruitless grounds. Like everything seen from the "don't register, don't pay" crowd I suppose.

A crony? No, I just see the situation for what it is. It's rather nice here in reality, perhaps some day you'll come and find out.

My reality is that I pay excessive tax already. I'll pay more if it helps the country out. I advise all home owners not to allow themselves to be unconstitutionally taxed purely because they own their own homes. I'm a realist but I also believe in fair treatment of our citizens. You're just towing the party line and agreeing with a grossly dangerous precedent that's being set that will allow Irish people to be raped financially in years to come. That's not overly-emotional language. That's what is happening to the people of this country. That's reality.

MightyBouche

charlemont wrote: »

We hate sharing our country with some people...

Is this racism or...?

Maybe the question should be asked, Why are so many people willing to hand over their cash to an overbloated and wasteful system ?

An overbloated and wasteful system...created by Irish people and the party they elected consecutively. A party kept in power purely due to the self-serving, short-sighted attitude of Irish people. The same attitude that has people opposing this charge.

They spent every cent they received in revenue and borrowed to make up for what they didn't have, yet the majority kept voting them back in, as they benefited their pockets and the party could keep on rocking. It couldn't, it didn't and those people created a situation which we all have to face now. It's not pleasant but it's very ****ing tiring to see the same people waving their hands in the air and proclaiming they had nothing to do with it and want nothing to do with dealing with it.

It would be like bringing your car to a crap mechanic over and over again even after you were told he was crap.

That's what those vote voted for FF did, in essence. Blame them, not those of us trying to deal with it now. FF voters are the reason the country is ****ed and they've all went into hiding now that their pockets aren't benefiting from it. They won't even admit to voting for them. They are the dregs of Irish society, not those of us who just want to deal with the situation they created and get things back on track.

Trying to make people out to hate Ireland because they won't pay, That's a new low.

Well it's either stupidity or just hatred of the country and the others of us living in it.

mickydoomsux

I love how the most staunch no campaigners on here just fall apart and resort to ad hominem attacks once they are asked a few questions that delve even slightly into their position/reasoning.

The thought process in the campaign doesn't seem to have gone much further past "**** you, i ain't payin" with a few Shinner and SWP catchphrases about some vague bondholder-bogeymen and "waste" thrown in for good measure.

MightyBouche

BarackPyjama wrote: »

My reality is that I pay excessive tax already.

Excessive? Don't make me laugh.

I'll pay more if it helps the country out.

Great!

I advise all home owners not to allow themselves to be unconstitutionally taxed purely because they own their own homes.

This charge is unconstitutional? Is it being challenged on these grounds? I wasn't aware of legal action being taken against its constitutionality?Links/resources please and from non-biased sources like a good lad. No freeman bull****.

I'm a realist but I also believe in fair treatment of our citizens.

This is fair. All house owners are being asked for it.

You're just towing the party line and agreeing with a grossly dangerous precedent that's being set that will allow Irish people to be raped financially in years to come. That's not overly-emotional language. That's what is happening to the people of this country. That's reality.

Nah, that's emotionally fueled bile. Not much more, I'm afraid.

BarackPyjama

MightyBouche wrote: »

Is this racism or...?



An overbloated and wasteful system...created by Irish people and the party they elected consecutively. A party kept in power purely due to the self-serving, short-sighted attitude of Irish people. The same attitude that has people opposing this charge.

They spent every cent they received in revenue and borrowed to make up for what they didn't have, yet the majority kept voting them back in, as they benefited their pockets and the party could keep on rocking. It couldn't, it didn't and those people created a situation which we all have to face now. It's not pleasant but it's very ****ing tiring to see the same people waving their hands in the air and proclaiming they had nothing to do with it and want nothing to do with dealing with it.



That's what those vote voted for FF did, in essence. Blame them, not those of us trying to deal with it now. FF voters are the reason the country is ****ed and they've all went into hiding now that their pockets aren't benefiting from it. They won't even admit to voting for them. They are the dregs of Irish society, not those of us who just want to deal with the situation they created and get things back on track.



Well it's either stupidity or just hatred of the country and the others of us living in it.

Nonsense. Corrupt politicians, developers, the banking elite and their unregulated banking practices ruined this country. Many of us never saw much of the boom, myself included.

Well it's the people vs the government now. When the populous go to war with you, you'll see what will happen. This government, despite all their arrogance and swagger, will soon realise just how weak they are.

charlemont

MightyBouche wrote: »

Is this racism or...?



An overbloated and wasteful system...created by Irish people and the party they elected consecutively. A party kept in power purely due to the self-serving, short-sighted attitude of Irish people. The same attitude that has people opposing this charge.

They spent every cent they received in revenue and borrowed to make up for what they didn't have, yet the majority kept voting them back in, as they benefited their pockets and the party could keep on rocking. It couldn't, it didn't and those people created a situation which we all have to face now. It's not pleasant but it's very ****ing tiring to see the same people waving their hands in the air and proclaiming they had nothing to do with it and want nothing to do with dealing with it.



That's what those vote voted for FF did, in essence. Blame them, not those of us trying to deal with it now. FF voters are the reason the country is ****ed and they've all went into hiding now that their pockets aren't benefiting from it. They won't even admit to voting for them. They are the dregs of Irish society, not those of us who just want to deal with the situation they created and get things back on track.



Well it's either stupidity or just hatred of the country and the others of us living in it.

I have to agree with your points, Well answered but sorry I don't agree with this tax, Simple..Streamline government authorities, cut quango's and I might reconsider..

And no I wasn't being racist either.

MightyBouche

BarackPyjama wrote: »

Nonsense. Corrupt politicians, developers, the banking elite and their unregulated banking practices ruined this country. Many of us never saw much of the boom, myself included.

Well it's the people vs the government now. When the populous go to war with you, you'll see what will happen. This government, despite all their arrogance and swagger, will soon realise just how weak they are.

3,000 crusties in a stadium isn't really much of a threat to the government, I'm afraid. Most of those who haven't paid want nothing to do with the actual campaigners and are holding out to merely see what happens.

Point the finger all you like, Fianna Fail, their voters and those driving the demand for property paid for on credit they couldn't afford are what took this country to its knees. Now the very same people, FF included, are pretending they had nothing to do with it and are pointing the finger and mysterious boogey men in Europe and elsewhere and claiming no responsibility themselves.

The world will continue to turn, the crusties can wave as many signs as they want, the money will be found one way or another and it will be coming out of their very pockets either directly or indirectly.

BarackPyjama

MightyBouche wrote: »

3,000 crusties in a stadium isn't really much of a threat to the government, I'm afraid. Most of those who haven't paid want nothing to do with the actual campaigners and are holding out to merely see what happens.

Point the finger all you like, Fianna Fail, their voters and those driving the demand for property paid for on credit they couldn't afford are what took this country to its knees. Now the very same people, FF included, are pretending they had nothing to do with it and are pointing the finger and mysterious boogey men in Europe and elsewhere and claiming no responsibility themselves.

The world will continue to turn, the crusties can wave as many signs as they want, the money will be found one way or another and it will be coming out of their very pockets either directly or indirectly.

Yeah, we'll see what happens alright.

mikom

MightyBouche wrote: »

3,000 crusties in a stadium isn't really much of a threat to the government, I'm afraid.

Needs to look up the definition of a crusty, I'm afraid

http://files.broadsheet.ie/wp-content/uploads/2012/03/90254945.jpg

http://files.broadsheet.ie/wp-content/uploads/2012/03/Screen-Shot-2012-03-24-at-15.18.04.png

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delaad

I may end up paying it, but, for sure and regardless of their petty fine, I will not pay it by the deadline.

Send me an invoice, put in writing the reasons you are demanding with menaces this money, outline the services you are providing me with(as a rural dweller, none) and I may pay it.

Till then, Ph**k Off.

H2UMrsRobinson

Been following this thread for a while but it's starting to deteriorate a bit, re-hashing etc. My conclusion...

NO camp - I won't pay this tax as I'm fed up with things the way they are and I want things to change.

YES camp - I will pay this tax as I'm fed up with things the way they are and I want things to change.

Common goal - different approach - one cancels out the other - nothing changes.

I think at the end of the day most people will end up paying one way or another - maybe that's what they wanted, people with houses to default on this tax, incur interest/late penalties and then reap more cash at some stage when the house is due to be sold, let's face it if you need to sell your house then you're going to pay your back taxes to do this. Strange when you think about it, by not paying you are actually giving them more money in the long term, and if you don't ever sell your house then whomever inherits will be liable and will piss on your grave - WEEKLY.

To give them the least of your hard earned money possible then you need to pay up by Friday or tell them to go fcuk themselves forever. But don't hang about in the middle that'll get us all nowhere. Majority wins.!!!

BostonB

MightyBouche wrote: »

...This is fair. All house owners are being asked for it.....

Maybe they should make income tax the same regardless of the size of income then.

delaad

H2UMrsRobinson wrote: »

Been following this thread for a while but it's starting to deteriorate a bit, re-hashing etc. My conclusion...

NO camp - I won't pay this tax as I'm fed up with things the way they are and I want things to change.

YES camp - I will pay this tax as I'm fed up with things the way they are and I want things to change.

Common goal - different approach - one cancels out the other - nothing changes.

I think at the end of the day most people will end up paying one way or another - maybe that's what they wanted, people with houses to default on this tax, incur interest/late penalties and then reap more cash at some stage when the house is due to be sold, let's face it if you need to sell your house then you're going to pay your back taxes to do this. Strange when you think about it, by not paying you are actually giving them more money in the long term, and if you don't ever sell your house then whomever inherits will be liable and will piss on your grave - WEEKLY.

To give them the least of your hard earned money possible then you need to pay up by Friday or tell them to go fcuk themselves forever. But don't hang about in the middle that'll get us all nowhere. Majority wins.!!!

Sounds like you might have paid already.

goz83

mickydoomsux wrote: »

Have you got any data to back up that claim or are you just deciding for them that they can't afford it?

I'm not saying that there isn't at least one person in the entire country that will struggle to pay it but to say that it's any kind of significant number somewhat stretches credibility.

Mortgage arrears light any fire in that head of yours?

Biggins

H2UMrsRobinson wrote: »

Been following this thread for a while but it's starting to deteriorate a bit, re-hashing etc. My conclusion...

NO camp - I won't pay this tax as I'm fed up with things the way they are and I want things to change.

(IT'S NOT JUST THAT SIMPLE BUT YOUR ON THE RIGHT TRACK)

YES camp - I will pay this tax as I'm fed up with things the way they are and I want things to change.

Common goal - different approach - one cancels out the other (THIS ISN'T MATHS EQUATIONS!) - nothing changes (REALLY!).

I think at the end of the day most people will end up paying one way or another - maybe that's what they wanted, people with houses to default on this tax, incur interest/late penalties (AYE, AN EXTRA TENNER BY DECEMBER!) and then reap more cash at some stage when the house is due to be sold, let's face it if you need to sell your house then you're going to pay your back taxes to do this (IF THE TAX STILL EXISTS IN ITS PRESENT FORMAT AND PENALTIES?) . Strange when you think about it, by not paying you are actually giving them more money in the long term, and if you don't ever sell your house then whomever inherits will be liable and will piss on your grave - WEEKLY. (REALLY? NICE SALESMANSHIP TOO!)

To give them the least of your hard earned money possible then you need to pay up by Friday or tell them to go fcuk themselves forever. But don't hang about in the middle that'll get us all nowhere. Majority wins!!! (WELL SO FAR, ALL THE PUBLIC IS LOSING - THEIR HARD EARNED MONEY! GO FIGURE! I WOULD SAY SO FAR, EVERYONE IS LOSING!)

As above!
Many of the above points has been gone over again and again here.

BostonB

H2UMrsRobinson wrote: »

...

NO camp - I won't pay this tax as I'm fed up with things the way they are and I want things to change.

YES camp - I will pay this tax as I'm fed up with things the way they are and I want things to change.

Common goal - different approach - one cancels out the other - nothing changes. ...

Not sure doing what the Govt asks, forces it to change.

crusher000

Sometimes no means no. And everyone is untitled to their opinions which makes life so interesting. But some of the posts assume that when people say no they only mean no until March 31st but will pay anyway. So incase i'm counted as one of those I'm not paying. Will I impose penalties answer is Yes but no I'm not paying. I'll go as far as this has to run. Well done to those that have paid and are happy to pay and if the penalties that are up on earlier posts are true I'll take them. Will this cost as much as the next property/household tax probably not time will tell.Those of us whom don't or can't pay stay with it.

BarackPyjama

H2UMrsRobinson wrote: »

I think at the end of the day most people will end up paying one way or another - maybe that's what they wanted, people with houses to default on this tax, incur interest/late penalties and then reap more cash at some stage when the house is due to be sold, let's face it if you need to sell your house then you're going to pay your back taxes to do this. Strange when you think about it, by not paying you are actually giving them more money in the long term, and if you don't ever sell your house then whomever inherits will be liable and will piss on your grave - WEEKLY.

To give them the least of your hard earned money possible then you need to pay up by Friday or tell them to go fcuk themselves forever. But don't hang about in the middle that'll get us all nowhere. Majority wins.!!!

So the vast majority of home owners fall into a cycle of debt to the government who restrict their ability to sell their homes? Yeah, that should work out really well. Until that majority publicly lash back at the government with venom and aggression.

The way people cede to the government in this country makes me laugh. We're a pathetic bunch, we really are. The government work for me. I'm their boss. Not the other way around. What we should be telling them is that they need to find a proper solution for taxation to deal with our current problems and not an extortionate, menacing and permanent tax on peoples' homes. They don't want to listen to this and want to continue disobey us? We need to tear the f**king walls down, drag them out of their seats and show them who's boss.

Time to stand up for yourselves people.

mconigol

Well it's pretty obvious that the government is going to have a serious problem on their hands come next Monday.

What do people think they will do? How are they going to pursue 1.2 million or approximately 1/4 of the population for late payment?

Logistically this is a nightmare.

Personally I think they will take a few test cases to court to try scare people. Of course this presents a whole host of other problems. Should be interesting however.

phil1nj

alastair wrote: »

I'm telling people that the tax is just, goes entirely to local authority funding, will be more expensive when the tiered arrangements kick in, will incorporate an ability to pay element, and that simply saying that the thing is unjust doesn't actually make it so. The poll tax was unjust for very identifiable reasons - reasons that no-one can replicate for this tax.

No hypocrisy there.

I didn't just "say" that the tax was unjust, I asked specific questions (which you have continuosy ignored over the course of this thread btw) that re-enforce how unjust this particular charge/tax is.

One last time just so you get the point:

* If this charge is actually going toward local services, why isn't everyone being asked to pay it - tenants, those on mortgage interest relief, those in unfinished estates, those in council houses etc? Why the exemptions from paying for services that everyone in a locality has access to (they may not use them, but they are there). Why the targeting of home owners only?
* The flat rate of 100Euro for everybody regardless of income,ability to pay, property value or location? How is that fair or just?

You are the one who has stated time and time again that this charge/tax is entirely justified but you haven't managed to say why when both of the questoiosn above remain unanswered. You just keep saying the same thing over and over again in different forms - it's a property tax, it's the law, you have to pay it etc.

Nice, especially from someone who, in the past, chose not to pay a tax when it didn't suit them