Are you going to pay the household charge? [Part 1]

charlemont

dvpower wrote: »

No problem - glad to clear up your misconception:)

I've already paid btw.

Your lollypop is in the post !!


So if all the tax goes to the local authorities then watch private businesses line up to apply for work and grants, We'll just be making private individuals rich while their low paid staff do shabby work.

BarackPyjama

alastair wrote: »

The act is publicly available - and I for one posted a link to it in this thread. After that there's the burden of written comprehension, which seems to trip a few up alright.

How have these services been paid for in the past? Seems to me there should have been a system in place already.

If you're asking people to take government documents or promissory notes at face value, after all of the corruption and empty promises that have been meted out already, then you're more naive than most and less intelligent that your pontificating might suggest.

dvpower

Biggins wrote: »

Well IF they brought in a law to take this money - then claim the councils are supposed to be legally ring-fenced, I smell that something is rotten!

The proceeds from the household charge is ringfenced, not other central government transfers to local authorities.
If you think something illegal is going on, you should lay it out in clear terms, not just rely on your sixth sense.

Biggins wrote: »

I call it thieving - you might call it something else,
The result is still the same.

We're not going to agree on this one. Let's let it lie.

jluv

dvpower wrote: »

Gimme a break

Oh if we looked close enough....Not a betting person ..but..I'm not stupid either.Where does the money for their extremely high paychecks come from? Please..address that first then ask me for $100

alastair

BarackPyjama wrote: »

How have these services been paid for in the past? Seems to me there should have been a system in place already.

If you're asking people to take government documents or promissory notes at face value, after all of the corruption and empty promises that have been meted out already, then you're more naive than most and less intelligent that your pontificating might suggest.

It's a law. Just like all other laws are 'government documents'. I'd recommend you take them at face value, yep.

dvpower

jluv wrote: »

Oh if we looked close enough....Not a betting person ..but..I'm not stupid either.Where does the money for their extremely high paychecks come from? Please..address that first then ask me for $100

If you mean the pay cheques of local authority staff and management - it comes out of rates, central government subvention, other local authority income and, it will come out of your €100 (you'll be paying a bit more than €100, what with the interest and penalties).

Izzy Skint

dvpower wrote: »

I want evidence to back up what you said i.e. that the government are thieving money.
You are providing links to something entirely different.

You're very loose with your language around here biggins.

dvpower wrote: »

Now, now. Play nice.

dvpower......I am a good, hard working, law abiding, family man....what has happened in this country over the past few years is an f***ing disgrace......history is going to be VERY unkind to our present "LEADERS" (joke!!)....who the hell do this bunch of overpaid, useless, spineless morons (I am refering to politicians in case there is any doubt!) think they are telling ME, MY WIFE AND MY KIDS that we have to dig even deeper and pay this tax to help pay others debts??...it's not my debt, it's not my kids debt, it's not the irish people's debt.....many have no more to give!!....what part of this do the government find so difficult to understand??....i do not have it to give, even if i did i would not pay it, i have paid enough.
There is billions of €'s that can be carved from spending...if anybody doubts this then take a look at how spending in social welfare, health, pensions + pay etc. exploded during the "boom" years....but they have only contracted by a tiny amount since we found ourselves €20b in the red every year....HELLO USELESS POLITICIANS!!!.....start cutting here....when ye have done this, and I mean really cut spending, then and only then will i consider paying this charge....maybe!...ha ha ha

phil1nj

alastair wrote: »

The poll tax was unjust on the basis of shifting rates from a weighted basis to a flat rate. It also simply didn't work to the point of being counterproductive. This property tax is progressive, fair, and easily administrated.

Right. Thanks for your concise, straight forward and to the point reply. You have also shown without one shadow of a doubt that you are one of the biggest wind up merchants on this thread.

You have been advocating people pay this tax because it is the law. Yet you freely admit to not paying a tax (which you took issue with for the reasons listed above one of which was down to your use of the words unjust). A lot of posters (myself included) on here have called this tax/charge unjust for several reasons which you have failed to address. Indeed you have told posters several times to (and I'm paraphrasing quiet heavily here) that they should just shut up and pay this tax because it is the law. Yet when you decide to beak the law elsewhere suddenly it's ok to oppose that particular governments taxation plans because of your beliefs and attitudes towards it? So in your mind and by your actions you fully believe that not all taxes are fair or just? Do you not see the hypocrisy?

Biggins

dvpower wrote: »

We're not going to agree on this one. Let's let it lie.

In that many are having to pay more than once for the same item, we could debate too maybe - but I see that way as so.

Debating over the wording of how they took the money out of the councils is pointless - we can agree to let that lie too - that don't take away from the fact that one way or another, they took the money and now we are expected to pay for their actions - be it this time by an unfair way.

BarackPyjama

alastair wrote: »

It's a law. Just like all other laws are 'government documents'. I'd recommend you take them at face value, yep.

Your trust in a government that's back peddled repeatedly on assurances made is frightening. Each to their own though.

dvpower

Izzy Skint wrote: »

dvpower......I am a good, hard working, law abiding, family man....what has happened in this country over the past few years is an f***ing disgrace......history is going to be VERY unkind to our present "LEADERS" (joke!!)....who the hell do this bunch of overpaid, useless, spineless morons (I am refering to politicians in case there is any doubt!) think they are telling ME, MY WIFE AND MY KIDS that we have to dig even deeper and pay this tax to help pay others debts??...it's not my debt, it's not my kids debt, it's not the irish people's debt.....many have no more to give!!....what part of this do the government find so difficult to understand??....i do not have it to give, even if i did i would not pay it, i have paid enough.
There is billions of €'s that can be carved from spending...if anybody doubts this then take a look at how spending in social welfare, health, pensions + pay etc. exploded during the "boom" years....but they have only contracted by a tiny amount since we found ourselves €20b in the red every year....HELLO USELESS POLITICIANS!!!.....start cutting here....when ye have done this, and I mean really cut spending, then and only then will i consider paying this charge....maybe!...ha ha ha

I'm equally pissed off at the incompetence, corruption and waste.
I just don't happen to share your view on the household charge issue (and probably other stuff too).

alastair

phil1nj wrote: »

Right. Thanks for your concise, straight forward and to the point reply. You have also shown without one shadow of a doubt that you are of the biggest wind up merchants on this thread.

You have been advocating people pay this tax because it is the law. Yet you freely admit to not paying a tax (which you took issue with for the reasons listed above one of which was down to your use of the words unjust). A lot of posters (myself included) on here have called this tax/charge unjust for several reasons which you have failed to address. Indeed you have told posters several times to (and I'm paraphrasing quiet heavily here) that they should just shut up and pay this tax because it is the law. Yet when you decide to beak the law elsewhere suddenly it's ok to oppose that particular governments taxation plans because of your beliefs and attitudes towards it? So in your mind and by your actions you fully believe that not all taxes are fair or just? Do you not see the hypocrisy?

Well worth my time responding to your question then. I'll know better next time. :rolleyes:

The tax is entirely just. You can choose not to pay it if you like - my point is that you'll simply end up owing more for your troubles. To summarise:

'Don't register, Pay Later'

lugha

Biggins wrote: »

Paying twice for the same damn think is just wrong and so far a lot of 1.3 million people might agree it seems.

Ah well now. Not doing something cos it’s “just wrong” has left town on the stage coach sometime ago, Its undoubtedly just wrong that private banks were rescued by the taxpayer after lending recklessly and there is a whole plethora of wrongs in terms of effects on everyday services them stem from this (they leave a €100 a year charge in the hapenny place!).

Of course, pragmatism compels us to sometimes follow this “wrong” road because the alternative is simply worse. Rhetoric on boards.ie is fine, but ultimately we have to live in the real world with solutions that, in the first place work and ideally but not essentially are fair and moral.

Biggins wrote: »

If FG and Labour was not too busy taking €170 million from the councils, we wouldn't have such a problem of covering the cost of local services for many years!

Yes, but surely you see that this is part of the reorganisation plan? I.e. fund local services with the household charge rather than centrally. It would be absolutely pointless to introduce this charge and continue to pay the €170 M don’t you agree? And this is now €170 M less that will have to be found in budgets cuts as we continue to try to close our deficit. If the house hold charge collapses, then there will be an extra €160M in the deficit, which they people WILL pay, a point seemingly lost on some of the no side.

And you avoid my substantial question. Will you personally return, if it can be calculated, the monies you received from that collected in stamp duty, given that it was er, “just wrong” that your received it in the first place, reserved as it should have been for local services?

housetypeb

black francis wrote: »

There's really only 3 reasonable explanations.

1. The Goverenment and their expensive advisors are to a man, thick as pig**** and unable to comprehend how introducing an unpopular tax might damage their re-election prospects.

2. They know what they're doing but are evil and want to inflict pain and misery on the general population, for ****s and giggles.

3. The economic situation is so dire, they've no choice but to introduce unpopular but stable new taxes.

Wonder which one it could be?[/QUOTE
Or
4 The economic situation is so dire that the Goverenment and their expensive advisors are to a man, thick as pig**** and are flailing around looking for some way to raise money without cutting their own bloated entitlements while ignoring the will of the people.

jluv

dvpower wrote: »

If you mean the pay cheques of local authority staff and management - it comes out of rates, central government subvention, other local authority income and, it will come out of your €100 (you'll be paying a bit more than €100, what with the interest and penalties).

No I don't mean the local authority staff and might I state they have no involement in this arguement..As well you know

alastair

BarackPyjama wrote: »

Your trust in a government that's back peddled repeatedly on assurances made is frightening. Each to their own though.

You do get the difference between political party pre-election promises and state legislation enacted into law, yeah?

BarackPyjama

alastair wrote: »

You do get the difference between political party pre-election promises and state legislation enacted into law, yeah?

Yes. They often blatantly contradict each other with very little accountability by anyone in power for new legislation.

phil1nj

alastair wrote: »

Well worth my time responding to your question then. I'll know better next time. :rolleyes:

I seriously doubt that.

alastair wrote: »

The tax is entirely just. You can choose not to pay it if you like - my point is that you'll simply end up owing more for your troubles.

This tax is entirely just? But the Poll Tax wasn't? So you didn't pay it?
Therefore you broke the law? And now you are on here telling people to pay this tax/charge because it is the current law of the land? There's a particular whiff of BS and hypocrisy starting to permeate your posts but at least now I know that you are definitely a wind up merchant.

dvpower

jluv wrote: »

No I don't mean the local authority staff and might I state they have no involement in this arguement..As well you know

Well, as you know, the revenue from the Household Charge is ringfenced for local authority funding, including paying staff wages, so you can rest assured about where your €100 - €150 will go.

dxhound2005

Izzy Skint wrote: »

dvpower......I am a good, hard working, law abiding, family man....what has happened in this country over the past few years is an f***ing disgrace......history is going to be VERY unkind to our present "LEADERS" (joke!!)....who the hell do this bunch of overpaid, useless, spineless morons (I am refering to politicians in case there is any doubt!) think they are telling ME, MY WIFE AND MY KIDS that we have to dig even deeper and pay this tax to help pay others debts??...it's not my debt, it's not my kids debt, it's not the irish people's debt.....many have no more to give!!....what part of this do the government find so difficult to understand??....i do not have it to give, even if i did i would not pay it, i have paid enough.
There is billions of €'s that can be carved from spending...if anybody doubts this then take a look at how spending in social welfare, health, pensions + pay etc. exploded during the "boom" years....but they have only contracted by a tiny amount since we found ourselves €20b in the red every year....HELLO USELESS POLITICIANS!!!.....start cutting here....when ye have done this, and I mean really cut spending, then and only then will i consider paying this charge....maybe!...ha ha ha

One little item you overlooked there. The incompetent fools are handing you over (or did in the past) €1700 per year tax free for each of your children.

dvpower

BarackPyjama wrote: »

Yes. They often blatantly contradict each other with very little accountability by anyone in power for new legislation.

Except the Oireachtas.

wp_rathead

Izzy Skint wrote: »

dvpower......I am a good, hard working, law abiding, family man....what has happened in this country over the past few years is an f***ing disgrace......history is going to be VERY unkind to our present "LEADERS" (joke!!)....who the hell do this bunch of overpaid, useless, spineless morons (I am refering to politicians in case there is any doubt!) think they are telling ME, MY WIFE AND MY KIDS that we have to dig even deeper and pay this tax to help pay others debts??...it's not my debt, it's not my kids debt, it's not the irish people's debt.....many have no more to give!!....what part of this do the government find so difficult to understand??....i do not have it to give, even if i did i would not pay it, i have paid enough.
There is billions of €'s that can be carved from spending...if anybody doubts this then take a look at how spending in social welfare, health, pensions + pay etc. exploded during the "boom" years....but they have only contracted by a tiny amount since we found ourselves €20b in the red every year....HELLO USELESS POLITICIANS!!!.....start cutting here....when ye have done this, and I mean really cut spending, then and only then will i consider paying this charge....maybe!...ha ha ha

individualism lives on

Biggins

lugha wrote: »

...Will you personally return, if it can be calculated, the monies you received from that collected in stamp duty, given that it was er, “just wrong” that your received it in the first place, reserved as it should have been for local services?

Said genuinely, I don't understand the question.

alastair

phil1nj wrote: »

I seriously doubt that.



This tax is entirely just? But the Poll Tax wasn't? So you didn't pay it?
Therefore you broke the law? And now you are on here telling people to pay this tax/charge because it is the current law of the land? There's a particular whiff of BS and hypocrisy starting to permeate your posts but at least now I know that you are definitely a wind up merchant.

I'm telling people that the tax is just, goes entirely to local authority funding, will be more expensive when the tiered arrangements kick in, will incorporate an ability to pay element, and that simply saying that the thing is unjust doesn't actually make it so. The poll tax was unjust for very identifiable reasons - reasons that no-one can replicate for this tax.

No hypocrisy there.

M cebee

i'm with the 80%
i aint payin
the peasants are revolting

MightyBouche

wprathead wrote: »

individualism lives on

Yep.

The Irish are mass proponents of NIMBY-syndrome and the push against this charge, a very small charge at that, is both further proof of this and only around because of it.

It's quite bizarre really. You've a group of people here who don't want to pay a €100 charge, who'll happily see the €160m pulled from the hospitals, police force, etc. instead and yet if they need these services, will then rant about how mismanaged and underfunded they are. Selfish, shortsighted ignorance at its finest.

Izzy Skint

dvpower wrote: »

I'm equally pissed off at the incompetence, corruption and waste.
I just don't happen to share your view on the household charge issue (and probably other stuff too).

well, all i can say is with an attitude like that, this country is going to hit the wall within a few years...if not sooner!....this waste, corruption etc. can not go on if we want to save this little country....this is our chance to say ENOUGH, otherwise it's business as usual for our government.....our government need to put their own house in order first, and fast....oh, and standing up for it's own people would also be nice....what are the odds on that happening??........night all...

MightyBouche

M cebee wrote: »

i'm with the 80%
i aint payin
the peasants are revolting

The only certain thing, in such a case, is that the "peasants" remain "peasants", regardless of the outcome.

BarackPyjama

MightyBouche wrote: »

Yep.

The Irish are mass proponents of NIMBY-syndrome and the push against this charge, a very small charge at that, is both further proof of this and only around because of it.

It's quite bizarre really. You've a group of people here who don't want to pay a €100 charge, who'll happily see the €160m pulled from the hospitals, police force, etc. instead and yet if they need these services, will then rant about how mismanaged and underfunded they are. Selfish, shortsighted ignorance at its finest.

*sigh*

It's a pre-cursor to a property tax that will cost people €1,500 or €2,000 a year or thereabouts. Depending on the value of your home.

goz83

dxhound2005 wrote: »

One little item you overlooked there. The incompetent fools are handing you over (or did in the past) €1700 per year tax free for each of your children.

This payment helps to keep our little island full of youth. If only all the youth of a generation didn't have to fly to Australia, that would be great!

Look at Germany...they have a career culture and many people don't have children. Those who do, often just have one. Compare this to the average Irish family. Career driven states = less children.

Oh and i'm just waiting for the idiot who makes the joke about contraception. Anyone? dvpower maybe? Yeah they tax those too.