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Are you going to pay the household charge? [Part 1]

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    #4382
    seamus
    Registered Users Posts: 68,317 ✭✭✭✭seamus


    mconigol wrote: »
    I think No. 2 is interesting:

    Of course it depends if a property tax can be classified as being for the common good. I'm sure it can be twisted that way.
    The property tax can never actually prevent you from transferring property. It is a payment that will be liable when the property is sold, exactly like stamp duty.
    It doesn't fundamentally prevent anyone from transferring the property, it simply becomes a fee which is payable when the property is transferred.


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    #4383
    smash
    Closed Accounts Posts: 34,809 ✭✭✭✭smash


    black francis wrote: »
    Well, because a property tax brings in a stable form of tax income every year - the alternatives you have mentioned are cyclical taxes which are driven by activity in the market place, whether that be people buying ciggarettes or people choosing to gamble.

    Large scale increses in public spending on the back of highly cyclical taxes like VAT and Stamp Duty are what got us into the mess in the first place.
    irrespective of any taxes, there should be no large scale increase in public spending. The money is needed to repay loans. If they want it, they should tax these luxuries/bad habits.


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    #4384
    donalg1
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,513 ✭✭✭donalg1


    People say that if you register now then you will be paying a lot more in a few years (scaremongering) so there is no way they are registering now. I dont get this, the household charge is being replaced by the property tax so in a few years the household charge wont exist so registering now wont have any affect on what you pay in a few years as all will be liable for the new property tax.

    Surely if the property tax is to be based on a site valuation then there will be a database of some sort with all those liable for the tax included on it and everyone liable will get a bill and there will be none of this self declaration nonsense.

    The household charge will only show the Government that self declaration doesnt work so surely they will figure out a better way of guaranteeing collection of the property tax.


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    #4385
    Frank Black
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,296 ✭✭✭Frank Black


    smash wrote: »
    irrespective of any taxes, there should be no large scale increase in public spending. The money is needed to repay loans. If they want it, they should tax these luxuries/bad habits.


    I'm getting really confused now - who's arguing for 'large scale increases in public spending'?

    And the money is actually need to balance our own budget, not to pay back loans - we can argue about the loans when we're not in the position to have to depend on them in the first place to keep the country running.


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    #4386
    Bruthal
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,422 ✭✭✭✭Bruthal


    robbie7730 wrote: »
    gurramok wrote: »

    I'd have no problem paying at a level of 500quid if it came to it. Thats just 1.37cents a day.
    Sure 20k is just 54 cent a day.

    Thats where i went wrong, i was going by gurramok`s method:)


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    #4387
    seamus
    Registered Users Posts: 68,317 ✭✭✭✭seamus


    donalg1 wrote: »
    People say that if you register now then you will be paying a lot more in a few years (scaremongering) so there is no way they are registering now.
    Some people are under the illusion that if you don't register, your property magically becomes invisible and the government don't know that it's there so they can't tax it.


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    #4388
    mconigol
    Registered Users Posts: 1,583 ✭✭✭mconigol


    seamus wrote: »
    The property tax can never actually prevent you from transferring property. It is a payment that will be liable when the property is sold, exactly like stamp duty.
    It doesn't fundamentally prevent anyone from transferring the property, it simply becomes a fee which is payable when the property is transferred.

    I can understand that, but to say that the right exists while at the same time effectively forcing you to pay for those rights is in effect an attempt to abolish those rights in my opinion.

    Obviously it's very open to debate. That's how I would view it. I would also consider stamp duty to fall into the same category.
    donalg1 wrote: »
    People say that if you register now then you will be paying a lot more in a few years (scaremongering) so there is no way they are registering now. I dont get this, the household charge is being replaced by the property tax so in a few years the household charge wont exist so registering now wont have any affect on what you pay in a few years as all will be liable for the new property tax.

    Surely if the property tax is to be based on a site valuation then there will be a database of some sort with all those liable for the tax included on it and everyone liable will get a bill and there will be none of this self declaration nonsense.

    The household charge will only show the Government that self declaration doesnt work so surely they will figure out a better way of guaranteeing collection of the property tax.

    This is one of the main problems with the way this charge is being introduced. Nobody knows what will happen a year from now. There is no plan, publicly at least.

    When you need to resort to "surely this will happen" or "presumably that will happen" etc... then it's bad law. Lack of planning is what got the country into the mess it is in, lack of planning will not get it out.

    Likewise, keeping people in the dark, when it's those very people who you need to get behind you is unwise. Smacks of poor leadership.


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    #4389
    cowzerp
    Registered Users Posts: 10,549 ✭✭✭✭cowzerp


    My house like most peoples is worth fook all compared to what we paid and what we owe for it-and then these chumps want a tax for the privilidge in us been trapped for probably our whole lives in a house that was meant to be a starter for us till we could move to a bigger nicer house etc

    We already pay for Bins which is basically a household charge and me and my partner are tax compliant and pay a fortune on taxes for to run our cars which we need for to work to pay more taxes.

    This is not about the 100 euro, its the principle

    I wish people would get some balls and just say NO, NO More ripping the piiss out of us.

    Tax the Bankers that got us in trouble, Legally look at getting money back from some of these Bankers who paiud themselves massive bonuses and wages, reduce the extortionate wages TD's are on, Increase income tax on the very high earners-cut down on the amount of TD's and stop givinmg mates pointless jobs in the seanad, We're a country of wimps that always bows down to been giving the bare minimum and been scammed

    The people who need it most are the people hardest hit, Millionaires will be paying the same 100 euro that poor people will, it's all a big joke.

    Rush Boxing club and Rush Martial Arts head coach.



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    #4390
    dvpower
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,183 ✭✭✭dvpower


    smash wrote: »
    The point is that nothing has been stated as to how they can get it. I said they can't prosecute almost 1/4 of the population and was told "they don't have to", but they do if they want the money.
    Nobody needs to be prosecuted in order to get an attachment order. Its a legal process, but a light one.


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    #4391
    dvpower
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,183 ✭✭✭dvpower


    squod wrote: »
    Codology! Are you a member of any of the campaign teams?
    What campaign teams are you on about?


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    #4392
    dvpower
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,183 ✭✭✭dvpower


    seamus wrote: »
    Some people are under the illusion that if you don't register, your property magically becomes invisible and the government don't know that it's there so they can't tax it.
    From the 'If I close my eyes, no one can see me' school of thought.


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    #4393
    Cantona's Collars
    Registered Users Posts: 33,709 ✭✭✭✭Cantona's Collars


    cowzerp wrote: »
    My house like most peoples is worth fook all compared to what we paid and what we owe for it-and then these chumps want a tax for the privilidge in us been trapped for probably our whole lives in a house that was meant to be a starter for us till we could move to a bigger nicer house etc

    We already pay for Bins which is basically a household charge and me and my partner are tax compliant and pay a fortune on taxes for to run our cars which we need for to work to pay more taxes.

    This is not about the 100 euro, its the principle

    I wish people would get some balls and just say NO, NO More ripping the piiss out of us.

    Tax the Bankers that got us in trouble, Legally look at getting money back from some of these Bankers who paiud themselves massive bonuses and wages, reduce the extortionate wages TD's are on, Increase income tax on the very high earners-cut down on the amount of TD's and stop givinmg mates pointless jobs in the seanad, We're a country of wimps that always bows down to been giving the bare minimum and been scammed

    The people who need it most are the people hardest hit, Millionaires will be paying the same 100 euro that poor people will, it's all a big joke.

    You have just summed up how the vast majority of people in this country feel and their reasons for non payment.
    The government want me to pay more money while my local FG TD gives himself a €17k a year pay rise!!!


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    #4394
    Chipboard
    Closed Accounts Posts: 428 ✭✭Chipboard


    golfwallah wrote: »
    Simple computer program to calculate penalties and fines - it's not unprecedented or rocket science.

    If it remains unpaid, there will be a charge on your property when it comes to be transferred (on sale, death, etc.) - "You will require a Certificate of Discharge when selling/transferring ownership of a property".

    Again, won't cause the court system to be clogged up or the fall of the Government.

    Rubbish.

    Anyone (incl the govt) who wants to get a judgment against another person or a company has to go to court to get it - thats why its called a judgment.

    Its not a straightforward process and you can't get multiple judgments in one sitting.


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    #4395
    foxcoverteddy
    Registered Users Posts: 2,191 ✭✭✭foxcoverteddy


    so when did the td's give themselves a raise? can't remember anythin g about that, is it a secret or was it swept under the carpet?


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    #4396
    smash
    Closed Accounts Posts: 34,809 ✭✭✭✭smash


    dvpower wrote: »
    Nobody needs to be prosecuted in order to get an attachment order. Its a legal process, but a light one.

    How much do you think the legal fees will be on this compared to the possible income they will produce? :rolleyes:


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    #4397
    BostonB
    Closed Accounts Posts: 18,056 ✭✭✭✭BostonB


    gurramok wrote: »
    ... income tax will have to be raised to plug the hole....

    Would that not be fairer.


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    #4398
    donalg1
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,513 ✭✭✭donalg1


    BostonB wrote: »
    Would that not be fairer.

    Only if its done right, and only if they cut social welfare at the same time, otherwise you will have the same people getting hit as usual


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    #4399
    Cantona's Collars
    Registered Users Posts: 33,709 ✭✭✭✭Cantona's Collars


    foxcoverteddy wrote: »
    so when did the td's give themselves a raise? can't remember anythin g about that, is it a secret or was it swept under the carpet?

    Here's a video of a protest in Enniscorthy after Paul Kehoe awarded himself a raise.A fine example of those in ivory towers who want us to pay out to fund them.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yAT_HKGqE6k


  • Options
    #4400
    BostonB
    Closed Accounts Posts: 18,056 ✭✭✭✭BostonB


    donalg1 wrote: »
    Only if its done right, and only if they cut social welfare at the same time, otherwise you will have the same people getting hit as usual

    Was the household charge done right? .... ;)


  • Options
    #4401
    Mr CJ
    Registered Users Posts: 331 ✭✭Mr CJ


    dxhound2005 wrote: »
    There is a once off septic tank inspection charge of €5 or €50. If your installation is causing pollution you should fix it, I don't see anything unfair about that. No water charges yet and nobody knows what the property tax will be. So for €105 you can sleep easy for the next 9 months. You did the right thing by paying your taxes to date, take a look at the defaulters list published today to see how much some of the clever ones who tried to get away with it had to pay in the end.

    This is complete Bullsht with a capital B!! Stop comparing this to tax evasion its not even close! I am convinced these pro guys are from the government as I would find it hard to believe someone from the public would have the mentality to take up so much of there own time defending some ripoff un-justified tax.


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    #4402
    smash
    Closed Accounts Posts: 34,809 ✭✭✭✭smash


    zerks wrote: »
    Here's a video of a protest in Enniscorthy

    Sinn Fein news round-up... No thanks


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    #4403
    donalg1
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,513 ✭✭✭donalg1


    BostonB wrote: »
    Was the household charge done right? .... ;)

    No chance, self declaration was always asking for trouble could have upped income tax and cut SW to get the equivalent of €100 from everyone until the property tax was put in place would've been a far better idea.

    A tax that is self declaration who could have envisaged any collection problems with that!!!


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    #4404
    BostonB
    Closed Accounts Posts: 18,056 ✭✭✭✭BostonB


    LOL. You reap what you sow.


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    #4405
    dvpower
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,183 ✭✭✭dvpower


    smash wrote: »
    How much do you think the legal fees will be on this compared to the possible income they will produce? :rolleyes:
    Tiny


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    #4406
    Cantona's Collars
    Registered Users Posts: 33,709 ✭✭✭✭Cantona's Collars


    smash wrote: »
    Sinn Fein news round-up... No thanks

    Not they're biggest fan but they did bring the pay rise to the public's attention.Brendan Howlin gave protesters a load of guff in Wexford recently,the politicians seem to look down on & despise those who elected them.They want us all to let them do what they want without accountability and pay whatever tax they foist upon us & now they wonder why there's such uproar over a tax on our homes.


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    #4407
    dvpower
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,183 ✭✭✭dvpower


    Mr CJ wrote: »
    This is complete Bullsht with a capital B!! Stop comparing this to tax evasion its not even close!
    Evading property tax isn't tax evasion?


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    #4408
    smash
    Closed Accounts Posts: 34,809 ✭✭✭✭smash


    dvpower wrote: »
    Tiny
    You honestly believe that? It costs circa €100 for a solicitor to type a letter let alone actually deal with presenting a legal order.


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    #4409
    dvpower
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,183 ✭✭✭dvpower


    Chipboard wrote: »
    Rubbish.

    Anyone (incl the govt) who wants to get a judgment against another person or a company has to go to court to get it - thats why its called a judgment.

    Its not a straightforward process and you can't get multiple judgments in one sitting.
    Getting an attachment order can be straightforward. The Collector General, for example, can get one without going to the courts at all.


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    #4410
    dvpower
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,183 ✭✭✭dvpower


    smash wrote: »
    You honestly believe that? It costs circa €100 for a solicitor to type a letter let alone actually deal with presenting a legal order.
    No solicitor is required. A Principal Officer in the CG's office can approve one.


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    #4411
    Mr CJ
    Registered Users Posts: 331 ✭✭Mr CJ


    dvpower wrote: »
    Evading property tax isn't tax evasion?

    Are you honestly that closed minded??

    This is a simple yes or no question

    Can I ask you if they brought a law in tomorrow that states you must take a lethal pill when you reach 70 as the state cant cope with the health care and need to reduce it drastically, would you gladly take the pill when you reach 70 and object to anyone that diasagrees with it because after all this is the law?

    The point I am trying to make is if you or the pro's will ever have some tiny bit of cop-on to question what the government can do, because if not there really is no hope and you guys are the totalitarian governments dream!!

    For Fck sake wake up guys....


This discussion has been closed.
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