Are you going to pay the household charge? [Part 1]

Mr CJ

dvpower wrote: »

There hasn't been complete outrage - there has been muted outrage.
The opinion poll published a couple of weeks ago has the majority of people going to pay it.

And the figures for registration is not 12.5% - its up over 14%.


Its not reasonable. If it was you'd be able to provide some reasoning.

Get down to some basic maths here... how does 230,000 equate to over 14% of 1.8million??

And there is outrage and anger, people do not show it on the streets but just ask some of them and you will see this anger

dvpower

Am Chile wrote: »

People take your pick, would you believe Joe Higgins on the figures or the guy on the rte six news last night, who some might say has a vested Interest with spicing up the numbers.

Would I believe Joe Higgins who has only the power of speculation or the head of the organisation tasked with collecting the charge who has access to all of the actual figures?

Let me just take a second to consider ....
:rolleyes:

donalg1

tayto lover wrote: »

If there was a mass campaign by householders to delay paying their mortgages, utilities etc for only 2/3 months then there would definitely be a whole re-think on the issues.

So now you want people to get into arrears on their mortgage just to avoid paying €100. Absolutely no chance I would even consider that for 1 second.

This charge is in now and wont be going away no matter how many or how few people pay it this year. Its here briefly to appease the EU / IMF and until the property tax is introduced, as for enforcement of it I dont think there will be a whole lot of that, same as the NPPR I would imagine. So its up to every individual that is liable for the household charge to decide what they want to do. The anti campaign is wasting their breath if their end goal is to have this charge scrapped cause that aint ever going to happen.

With the NPPR for example some landlords pay it every year and some dont, some have paid €800 (€200 per year for four years) and some havent paid at all but they now owe thousands in penalties and late charges but sure they wont be chased for that either until they go to sell or transfer their house or the like.

Call it the beauty or the flaw of self declaration.

tayto lover

dvpower wrote: »

Her's the type of letter you can expect popping through your letter box.

I am now 100% sure that you are a F.G. man.
You have been scaremongering here for some considerable time and you possess information that someone outside that party could not have.
Why don't you admit that you're on as mission ?

dvpower

smash wrote: »

There are no official figures. Just figures that the news are told to say, that some TD's have disagreed with.

The official in charge of collection was all over the media yesterday. The Minister responsible has also been issuing information.

What does an official figure look like to you?

Am Chile

dvpower wrote: »

There hasn't been complete outrage - there has been muted outrage.
The opinion poll published a couple of weeks ago has the majority of people going to pay it.

And the figures for registration is not 12.5% - its up over 14%.


Its not reasonable. If it was you'd be able to provide some reasoning.

Muted outrage? tell that is a number of councilers who have being confronted to their face over the household tax-tell that to some of the councilers at the donegal coincil.

Mr CJ

dvpower wrote: »

The official figures as reported all over the media put the figures for payment at well over 1-2%.
There are NO official figures putting payment rates at 1-2%

What kind of proof would be sufficient for you?

These are registration figures not paid figures, so ill ask again prove your comment?????

dvpower

Mr CJ wrote: »

Get down to some basic maths here... how does 230,000 equate to over 14% of 1.8million??

The estimates for liable households is 1.6m.

Mr CJ wrote: »

And there is outrage and anger, people do not show it on the streets but just ask some of them and you will see this anger

If I ask angry, outraged people if they are angry and outraged, they'll tell me they are? Gotcha.

smash

dvpower wrote: »

The official in charge of collection was all over the media yesterday. The Minister responsible has also been issuing information.

What does an official figure look like to you?

Your constant ranting about this issue and scaremongering people to pay, at this stage reminds me of my mother telling me "Well if Johnny told you to put your hand in the fire, would you do it?"

Am Chile

dvpower wrote: »

The official in charge of collection was all over the media yesterday. The Minister responsible has also been issuing information.

What does an official figure look like to you?

Who some might say has a vested Interest with spicing up the numbers,A recent breakdown of the household charge numbers in galway, limerick, meath and donegal.

http://www.politics.ie/forum/economy/183992-has-household-charge-sparked-long-awaited-revolution-9.html#post5061944

seamus

Mr CJ wrote: »

Get down to some basic maths here... how does 230,000 equate to over 14% of 1.8million??

It's not, but it is over 14% of 1.6 million, which is the estimated number of liable households.

Joe Higgins is basically pulling figures out of his arse, I would see no reason to believe his assertion that "many" of those registered are exempt.

Like I pointed out earlier, it's probable that those who are exempt are the least likely to register.

dvpower

Mr CJ wrote: »

These are registration figures not paid figures, so ill ask again prove your comment?????

Go and have a look yourself at the reporting.

Here's a bit of a head start.

Irish Times wrote:

So far just over 224,000 households have paid the charge - just 14% of the 1.6m households thought to be liable.

Indo wrote:

That's an increase of around 30,000 since last week, but it still means that over 85pc of households have still not paid. And the €22.9m raised is still far short of the €160m target.

squod

dvpower wrote: »

What campaign teams are you on about?

That's a no then.

Am Chile

smash wrote: »

Your constant ranting about this issue and scaremongering people to pay, at this stage reminds me of my mother telling me "Well if Johnny told you to put your hand in the fire, would you do it?"

His or her constant scaremongering proves whoever it is def has a vested Interest in people paying the household tax, otherwise he/she wouldn,t be so active on threads.

dvpower

smash wrote: »

Your constant ranting about this ...

Take a quick look at the top of the page .... OK. Now, slowly - have a read of the thread title.
:cool:

Mr CJ

dvpower wrote: »

The estimates for liable households is 1.6m.


If I ask angry, outraged people if they are angry and outraged, they'll tell me they are? Gotcha.

Everyone has to register exempt or not so this is 1.8million

No just people in general, my friend was on the luas and someone asked him out of the blue are you paying the household charge? he said no, her reply was fair play to ya!! Even people you would not expect a reaction from when I mentioned it to the cashier at the bank she laughed at how very few has paid it hardly no one she said and she aint paying either, all my neighbours are disgusted with it and are not paying either so to me compliance seems to be a great big 0 from where I am

tayto lover

donalg1 wrote: »

So now you want people to get into arrears on their mortgage just to avoid paying €100. Absolutely no chance I would even consider that for 1 second.

This charge is in now and wont be going away no matter how many or how few people pay it this year. Its here briefly to appease the EU / IMF and until the property tax is introduced, as for enforcement of it I dont think there will be a whole lot of that, same as the NPPR I would imagine. So its up to every individual that is liable for the household charge to decide what they want to do. The anti campaign is wasting their breath if their end goal is to have this charge scrapped cause that aint ever going to happen.

With the NPPR for example some landlords pay it every year and some dont, some have paid €800 (€200 per year for four years) and some havent paid at all but they now owe thousands in penalties and late charges but sure they wont be chased for that either until they go to sell or transfer their house or the like.

Call it the beauty or the flaw of self declaration.

The level of anger with the turn-coat F.G. party is very strong now. Do not underestimate the power of the people. All this austerity and attacks on their own homes are highly motivational.

dvpower

Am Chile wrote: »

Who some might say has a vested Interest with spicing up the numbers,A recent breakdown of the household charge numbers in galway, limerick, meath and donegal.

So the civil servant and the Minister are 'spicing up' the numbers, but some anti household charge person on a website quoting numbers, some of which have been debunked on this thread, is right on the button.
Is that about the size of it?

ffs

smash

dvpower wrote: »

Take a quick look at the top of the page .... OK. Now, slowly - have a read of the thread title.
:cool:

Done that. No you go and read the thread again and actually answer people's questions seeing as how you have all the answers.

Mr CJ

tayto lover wrote: »

The level of anger with the turn-coat F.G. party is very strong now. Do not underestimate the power of the people. All this austerity and attacks on their own homes are highly motivational.

They are so arrogant they think we will all jump up to pay it but im glad to see there are less and less sheeple in Ireland now than there was and the evidence is quite clear that people are done with been taken for fools and are standing up!!

I mean asking us to sign a declaration (or should I say helping to implement) that will only have upwardly costs, they really think we are complete fools while they give each other payrises and claim expenses except for 1 labour TD.

golfwallah

smash wrote: »

How do you define what type of person a householder is?

They are home owners, who have either paid for their property or are in the process of so doing.

Generally these are people who work for a living and have a stake in the community and don't want to destroy it.

Unfortunately, some bought property recently and are now faced with negative equity.

According to some commentators this was partly caused by US President George Bush, who wanted to increase the number of house owners and used deregulation of the finance sector to make loans more readily available (to many, whom it later turned out couldn't afford them long term). Easy access to credit lead to the property bubble in the USA and many other countries.

That little social experiment, to increase the numbers with a property stake, didn't quite work out as planned, so we're all paying the price for that now in the form of reduced public services and higher taxes.

Haven't heard about these people rioting in the states or anywhere else yet, apart from Greece.

But let's not go there.

smash

golfwallah wrote: »

They are home owners, who have either paid for their property or are in the process of so doing.

Generally these are people who work for a living and have a stake in the community and don't want to destroy it.

This has absolutely nothing to do with paying a household charge.

seamus

Mr CJ wrote: »

They are so arrogant they think we will all jump up to pay it but im glad to see there are less and less sheeple in Ireland now than there was and the evidence is quite clear that people are done with been taken for fools and are standing up!!

Do you not think it's just a little bit odd that on the one hand you have 85% of people not registering to pay, but on the other hand any rallies, meetings or "helplines" that have been set up to oppose this tax have virtually no participants?

It's almost like people aren't really that angry about it and are instead waiting to see what happens...

The joke of course is that the time to do anything about it has long passed. If you managed to get 150,000 marching on Leinster house in early January, they may have thought twice about it. In reality, any rally which had 150 participants was doing well, so the policitians rightly ignored them and the plans are already in motion. The time to "stand up" has passed.

seamus

seamus wrote: »

It's almost like people aren't really that angry about it and are instead waiting to see what happens...

Well this is an introductory off the government are doing. Like UPC, there is a discount when you sign up, but next year it goes up to the full price.

golfwallah

Am Chile wrote: »

His or her constant scaremongering proves whoever it is def has a vested Interest in people paying the household tax, otherwise he/she wouldn,t be so active on threads.

People paying the household tax have a vested Interest in preventing this country becoming an economic basket case like Greece.

And what's wrong with that?

I'd be more concerned about the vested interest of those advocating that people break the law by not paying household charges as raised through the legitimate democratic process.

Mr.Micro

Once individual households are singled out of the wont pay herd, and get a demand for the charge in the post, then we will see how brave they are in refusing to pay.

Am Chile

seamus wrote: »

Do you not think it's just a little bit odd that on the one hand you have 85% of people not registering to pay, but on the other hand any rallies, meetings or "helplines" that have been set up to oppose this tax have virtually no participants?

It's almost like people aren't really that angry about it and are instead waiting to see what happens...

The joke of course is that the time to do anything about it has long passed. If you managed to get 150,000 marching on Leinster house in early January, they may have thought twice about it. In reality, any rally which had 150 participants was doing well, so the policitians rightly ignored them and the plans are already in motion. The time to "stand up" has passed.

No rallies? no helpline?

A new hotline has been launched today, offering advice to people who are opposed to the new €100 household charge.

The number is 1890 98 98 00

http://www.irishexaminer.com/breakingnews/ireland/anti-household-charge-hotline-number-announced-535455.html

As for the no rallies part.

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=77335995&postcount=3485

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=77362185&postcount=3536

As for the some people not attending rallies part.

There,s also a signifigant number of people who won,t be paying the household tax, one poster on here who has states not paying has stated this.

I have no intention of marching or protesting and there are many like me ...... we are just not going to pay.

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=77287412&postcount=3346

A good few friends/relatives of mine aren,t paying, would be of like mind about protests/rallies.

Ghandee

seamus wrote: »

Do you not think it's just a little bit odd that on the one hand you have 85% of people not registering to pay, but on the other hand any rallies, meetings or "helplines" that have been set up to oppose this tax have virtually no participants?

It's almost like people aren't really that angry about it and are instead waiting to see what happens...

The joke of course is that the time to do anything about it has long passed. If you managed to get 150,000 marching on Leinster house in early January, they may have thought twice about it. In reality, any rally which had 150 participants was doing well, so the policitians rightly ignored them and the plans are already in motion. The time to "stand up" has passed.

Bollox Seamus.

The time to really stand up is only just approaching, (probably too quickly for the pro brigade).
The 31st of this month its when things will get really messed up for the current shower of cowardly morons we have in Govt.

They seem to be desperate at this stage with threats of tracking us down through utility bills, fines, and whatever else they can think to scare us into paying off debts that aren't ours.
Desperation and unpredictability is not a good trait for any govt to have, and when the first wave of whatever repercussions for non payers start to get publicised, expect to see a wave of revolt from the Irish people never seen before in the history of this state.

This current Govt are going to seal their own fate, purely through arrogance and unwillingness to take the public seriously.

I certainly wouldn't be betting 'my house' on them being in power for much longer.

And good riddance IMO.

Btw, i'm exempt from this charge, but 'the onus is on me to register still'
Lol, yeah right.......
I'll willingly sign up to be shafted..... Its in my nature.

tayto lover

Mr CJ wrote: »

They are so arrogant they think we will all jump up to pay it but im glad to see there are less and less sheeple in Ireland now than there was and the evidence is quite clear that people are done with been taken for fools and are standing up!!

I mean asking us to sign a declaration (or should I say helping to implement) that will only have upwardly costs, they really think we are complete fools while they give each other payrises and claim expenses except for 1 labour TD.

Yes indeed. Some people would like us to believe that we are partly responsible for the problem. That we "creamed" it in the so-called good times.
I did not borrow anymore than I needed and could pay back. I owe nothing to anybody.
There are thousands of empty or unfinished houses all around the country. These were the product of great big banking loans to greedy property developers and speculators who were aided and abetted by Fianna Fail. The Fine Gael/Labour crowd just sat on their hands and allowed it to continue. They are just as guilty.
The crash came and the working class are left to pay for the mess.
Then we have the deficit between what we spend and what we take in in taxes. The people at the top again creamed it, Politicians, Bankers, top Civil Servants. The nurses, garda, firemen were at the bottom of the pile in the Public Service but when the lay-offs or early retirements were forced into the picture very few of the top people left and remained on big wages. The children, elderly or crime victims suffer but not the big boys who have armed gardai and private medical insurance. Some Govt people even got rises, advisers etc, new people were appointed to the Seanad to represent the Fine Gael views. Cronyism is again rife in the country, F.G. went back on their word again. Then they promised to re-negotiate the I.M.F. loans but are happier having their hair tossed by the like of Sarcozy or Angela and being regarded as being the "best boys in the class". They continually return home empty-handed. meanwhile not one Banker, Builder or Speculator has been in court, some were actually given jobs in N.A.M.A. at 200k a year. You couldn't make it up.
Now they are trying their dirty tricks to make us pay a Property Tax but the Irish people will see these attacks on their homes as the last straw. I certainly do and I am refusing to pay. I don't even have to leave my armchair to protest. Enough is enough.

Am Chile

Ghandee wrote: »

Bollox Seamus.

The time to really stand up is only just approaching, (probably too quickly for the pro brigade).
The 31st of this month its when things will get really messed up for the current shower of cowardly morons we have in Govt.

They seem to be desperate at this stage with threats of tracking us down through utility bills, fines, and whatever else they can think to scare us into paying off debts that aren't ours.
Desperation and unpredictability is not a good trait for any govt to have, and when the first wave of whatever repercussions for non payers start to get publicised, expect to see a wave of revolt from the Irish people never seen before in the history of this state.

This current Govt are going to seal their own fate, purely through arrogance and unwillingness to take the public seriously.

I certainly wouldn't be betting 'my house' on them being in power for much longer.

And good riddance IMO.

To my knowledge different groups, the anti household tax group, groups against cuts in services, march 31th being the fine gael annual conference are gonna march and descend on it, everyone here whos against the household tax should def attend that march as many as possible from each town/county come out march 31st and let the blueshirts what we think of their household tax.