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Why are the British so anti Europe?
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Like your name Boskowski.....the alter ego of Bosco or just his polish frenemy
Ye sort of. Berlin in fact (straight from the Hauptquartier as some here might say) but Berlin is full of Polish names.
Well and one thing I learned here is that Bosco is cult. Still not sure what inspired me but there you go...0 -
I suspect its partly a vestage of being a colonial power and partly a mistrust of the Germans.0
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I suspect its partly a vestage of being a colonial power and partly a mistrust of the Germans.
I truly don't understand the line followed by many (including yourself) that the British desire for independence and self determination has come about as a result of a post-colonial delusion.
Many seem annoyed and frustrated that Britain will not "play along" with the rest of Europe. However, Britain is not obliged to toe the line in the manner that every other country is doing.
Why do many people who blame it on nationalism/arrogance on the part of Britain care anyway? Surely you would want rid of such a blight to your continental utopia?0 -
I truly don't understand the line followed by many (including yourself) that the British desire for independence and self determination has come about as a result of a post-colonial delusion.
Many seem annoyed and frustrated that Britain will not "play along" with the rest of Europe. However, Britain is not obliged to toe the line in the manner that every other country is doing.
Why do many people who blame it on nationalism/arrogance on the part of Britain care anyway? Surely you would want rid of such a blight to your continental utopia?
Essentially, because the UK in the EU plays the part of the wrecker. It's not really there to join in on creating a 'continental utopia', it's there to derive maximum advantage from the free trade arrangements while as much as possible preventing the other European countries from making the EU something more than that.
Whether the other EU countries are right or wrong to want something more than a free trade area is irrelevant - the UK does its best to prevent them doing so for no other reasons than its own self-interest. That's why, despite the dominant euroscepticism of the UK public, the politicians keep the UK in the EU.
Ireland, in respect of that attitude on the part of the UK, is in an odd position. We want more than the British want in terms of going beyond the pure free trade area, but we're still very closely linked with the UK, and its one of our major allies on business matters (and one of our main opponents on farming protectionism). With the EU as a balancing force, though, we'd probably move back into the UK's shadow, so we straddle the fence somewhat uneasily.
cordially,
Scofflaw0 -
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Essentially, because the UK in the EU plays the part of the wrecker. It's not really there to join in on creating a 'continental utopia', it's there to derive maximum advantage from the free trade arrangements while as much as possible preventing the other European countries from making the EU something more than that.
Whether the other EU countries are right or wrong to want something more than a free trade area is irrelevant - the UK does its best to prevent them doing so for no other reasons than its own self-interest. That's why, despite the dominant euroscepticism of the UK public, the politicians keep the UK in the EU.
Ireland, in respect of that attitude on the part of the UK, is in an odd position. We want more than the British want in terms of going beyond the pure free trade area, but we're still very closely linked with the UK, and its one of our major allies on business matters (and one of our main opponents on farming protectionism). With the EU as a balancing force, though, we'd probably move back into the UK's shadow, so we straddle the fence somewhat uneasily.
cordially,
Scofflaw
So essentially people are frustrated that a foreign government is acting in (what they believe to be) the best interests of its nation and its people, because they do not believe it is in the best interests of their own nation and people? Surely that is simply hypocrisy and a failure to understand the primary duty of a government?
After all, surely all would agree that the Irish government need to do what is right for the Irish people before anything else, not the people of continental europe? Well, if looking at the situation from a holistic viewpoint then the British government are currently doing exactly and only that. They have, after all, no duty to the Irish people, nor the German people, nor the French people. It is a matter which is hugely complex, yet at the same time very simple.
Is Ireland in the EU for any reason other than to ensure its future prosperity and security?0 -
So essentially people are frustrated that a foreign government is acting in (what they believe to be) the best interests of its nation and its people, because they do not believe it is in the best interests of their own nation and people? Surely that is simply hypocrisy and a failure to understand the primary duty of a government?
After all, surely all would agree that the Irish government need to do what is right for the Irish people before anything else, not the people of continental europe? Well, if looking at the situation from a holistic viewpoint then the British government are currently doing exactly and only that. They have, after all, no duty to the Irish people, nor the German people, nor the French people. It is a matter which is hugely complex, yet at the same time very simple.
Is Ireland in the EU for any reason other than to ensure its future prosperity and security?
That's rather like saying that someone at a party who has a good time by preventing other people having one is there for exactly the same reason as them, and is therefore as entitled to remain as they are.
cordially,
Scofflaw0 -
I suspect its partly a vestage of being a colonial power and partly a mistrust of the Germans.
I truly don't understand the line followed by many (including yourself) that the British desire for independence and self determination has come about as a result of a post-colonial delusion.
Many seem annoyed and frustrated that Britain will not "play along" with the rest of Europe. However, Britain is not obliged to toe the line in the manner that every other country is doing.
Why do many people who blame it on nationalism/arrogance on the part of Britain care anyway? Surely you would want rid of such a blight to your continental utopia?
I tbink you are mistaking me for some anti englander...0 -
KINGVictor wrote: »That is totally incorrect. I have lived in both cities and London is more immigrant friendly than Dublin by miles.
I was an immigrant in London so I have first hand experience of it from that perspective..."It's not a case of Britannia Ruling the Waves more Britannia waiving the Rules..."0 -
Essentially, because the UK in the EU plays the part of the wrecker. It's not really there to join in on creating a 'continental utopia', it's there to derive maximum advantage from the free trade arrangements while as much as possible preventing the other European countries from making the EU something more than that.
Whether the other EU countries are right or wrong to want something more than a free trade area is irrelevant - the UK does its best to prevent them doing so for no other reasons than its own self-interest. That's why, despite the dominant euroscepticism of the UK public, the politicians keep the UK in the EU.
Ireland, in respect of that attitude on the part of the UK, is in an odd position. We want more than the British want in terms of going beyond the pure free trade area, but we're still very closely linked with the UK, and its one of our major allies on business matters (and one of our main opponents on farming protectionism). With the EU as a balancing force, though, we'd probably move back into the UK's shadow, so we straddle the fence somewhat uneasily.
cordially,
Scofflaw
What exactly does Ireland want from the EU other than an open cheque book?
Ireland is vehemently opposed to amending its corporation tax, effectively making the country a tax haven, it is essentially ignoring ECHR rulings on abortion and has been found guilty of not fairly applying rules to VHI. Then of course the is VRT...
Being a cynic, I would say Ireland wants closer integration with europe, as long as it doesn't have to change anything it doesn't like.
To be further cynical, it appears to me that Britain refuses to sign a treaty it can't adhere to, whereas other countries (I'm looking at France in particular) sign treaties and then ignore what they hjave signed up to.0 -
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Fratton Fred wrote: »What exactly does Ireland want from the EU other than an open cheque book?
Ireland is vehemently opposed to amending its corporation tax, effectively making the country a tax haven, it is essentially ignoring ECHR rulings on abortion and has been found guilty of not fairly applying rules to VHI. Then of course the is VRT...
Corporation tax is different in different countries, making them all relative tax havens ( relative to the top rate). That includes the UK. The ECHR doesn't overrule a constitution, and the VHI thing - pretty minor.Being a cynic, I would say Ireland wants closer integration with europe, as long as it doesn't have to change anything it doesn't like.
I think that we have reached the limit to integration.To be further cynical, it appears to me that Britain refuses to sign a treaty it can't adhere to, whereas other countries (I'm looking at France in particular) sign treaties and then ignore what they hjave signed up to.
True enough. France and Germany - great Europeans - didn't allow free movement of labour for 7 years after the accession States entered.0 -
I'm not sure about the ECHR over ruling a constitution.
Try putting the death penalty back in the constitution and see what happens.0 -
Fratton Fred wrote: »I'm not sure about the ECHR over ruling a constitution.
Try putting the death penalty back in the constitution and see what happens.
The constitution never had anything about the death penalty. My " I am not sure" was really " I am sure". We have referenda on amendments to the constitution because European law does not apply until we do. I think the UK may be in a different situation, lacking a constitution the ECHR rulings are like a Supreme Court.
There was never a referendum in Ireland where Europe says - this now supersedes the constitution.0 -
The constitution never had anything about the death penalty. My " I am not sure" was really " I am sure". We have referenda on amendments to the constitution because European law does not apply until we do. I think the UK may be in a different situation, lacking a constitution the ECHR rulings are like a Supreme Court.
There was never a referendum in Ireland where Europe says - this now supersedes the constitution.
The UK does have a constitution.
In both cases though, EU legislation has no affect until adopted by the country. The UK does not need a referendum to do this because the constitution can be changed by an act of parliament. In Ireland an amendment requires a referendum.
Either way though (and I use the death penalty as an extreme example) if you don't play by the rules set up by the EU, you either get fined, or thrown out. Or, in the case of Lisbon, you keep getting asked to vote until you come up with the right answer.0 -
Fratton Fred wrote: »The UK does have a constitution.
In both cases though, EU legislation has no affect until adopted by the country. The UK does not need a referendum to do this because the constitution can be changed by an act of parliament. In Ireland an amendment requires a referendum.
Either way though (and I use the death penalty as an extreme example) if you don't play by the rules set up by the EU, you either get fined, or thrown out. Or, in the case of Lisbon, you keep getting asked to vote until you come up with the right answer.
A constitution which does not limit the legislature is not much of a constitution. the UK has laws which are constitutional, but not a constitution.0 -
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hatrickpatrick wrote: »Do you not understand the principle here?
If he believes he has the right to tell another country how to govern itself, he is a serious megalomanic. And I do not want to live in a US of E run by himself and Merkel. If we all get a say then fair enough. If it's their way or the highway, then in my view they can f*ck off.
As I already said he's the head of state of another country and he can say pretty much what he likes at home, they can deal with that. He's one vote of 27 so the chances of that being somehow forced in the EU are pretty much non existent. I have no idea what mechanism you think he's using to be able to force anything through. You appear to be saying Sarkosy is not nice therefore the EU is not nice. Not seeing the logic.hatrickpatrick wrote: »Yes, I fully admit that national sovereignty is an extremely important issue for me. Does that make me naive or idealist? Perhaps. My family has a long history of fighting for our freedom, and I don't want to see that thrown away less than 100 years after they attained it.
I've never seen a time in this country where we used that sovereignty very well. It's like continually saying how much you love the family pet but constantly beating it. My family fought too, though I have no problem distinguishing the difference between a fight for freedom and a vote on mutually beneficial issues. I think perhaps you do.hatrickpatrick wrote: »The Irish people should decide what is and is not illegal in this country, not some "directive" passed by unelected bureaucrats. I don't want to live in a European federal system because I like the feeling that people power has the ability to actually win, and that won't happen if one out of 4 million becomes one out of hundreds of millions.
That's exactly what we do. We are the EU as much as anyone is. We shape it as much as anyone does. The decision makers in Brussels are elected and quite honestly it's more democratic than our own Dail. I think it's odd that you claim to be worried about our place in the EU which skews the power in our favour.hatrickpatrick wrote: »In my view, we should be moving in the exact opposite direction, towards more local governance, not towards our voices just being tiny squeaks as part of a much bigger picture. This was precisely the main reason people wanted independence from Britain, the Irish people not having enough of a say in parliament on the laws which affect Irish people, since they were a minority among a much bigger group of MPs.
It's funny because I can agree that in theory more direct democracy is good. However I wouldn't trust this country to vote for the right thing. We'd vote for what we thought was the easiest thing every time. Directly comparing our relationship with the EU with our relationship with Britain is utterly ridiculous. We get votes on the direction this country takes every few years and we get referenda on our relationship with the EU, in fact a lot of the voting in the EU is slanted in our favour. I cannot see how that compares to our connection to Britain in the past, it's seems completely the opposite.hatrickpatrick wrote: »The more local government gets, the more democratic it is. Conversely, the more you delegate power to gargantuan bodies, the less say each ordinary individual has in the laws with affect them. It's pretty much that simple, IMO. That's why I oppose any further handover of sovereignty to anyone other than the Irish people.
It seems to be you've reached a conclusion in your head and no amount of the reality is dissuading you from that. You also reached a decision on where the EU is going while personally I know the EU will go where the people of Europe vote it to go.
“It held that the Lisbon Treaty does not transform the EU into a federal state and such a transformation would have been contrary to domestic German law. It also held that the Lisbon Treaty does create an EU citizenship to supersede a national one, and does not oblige member states to provide troops for a European army. In essence, the Constitutional Court finds that the member States of the EU wield the political power.”
This is what the German constitutional court said about Lisbon.0 -
Fratton Fred wrote: »What exactly does Ireland want from the EU other than an open cheque book?
Ireland is vehemently opposed to amending its corporation tax, effectively making the country a tax haven, it is essentially ignoring ECHR rulings on abortion and has been found guilty of not fairly applying rules to VHI. Then of course the is VRT...
Being a cynic, I would say Ireland wants closer integration with europe, as long as it doesn't have to change anything it doesn't like.
I think that's what everybody wants, but sometimes they have to compromise. Seems reasonable to me.Fratton Fred wrote: »To be further cynical, it appears to me that Britain refuses to sign a treaty it can't adhere to, whereas other countries (I'm looking at France in particular) sign treaties and then ignore what they hjave signed up to.
The UK wouldn't have had to adhere to the treaty, though - it only applies in the eurozone. In respect of the breaches of the Stability & Growth Pact, the second point is quite true - but on the other hand the only process in that for sanctions required a majority vote on the Council, and that never happened. The new one would be judiciable by the ECJ, which is somewhat different.
cordially,
Scofflaw0 -
Essentially, because the UK in the EU plays the part of the wrecker. It's not really there to join in on creating a 'continental utopia', it's there to derive maximum advantage from the free trade arrangements while as much as possible preventing the other European countries from making the EU something more than that.
Whether the other EU countries are right or wrong to want something more than a free trade area is irrelevant - the UK does its best to prevent them doing so for no other reasons than its own self-interest. That's why, despite the dominant euroscepticism of the UK public, the politicians keep the UK in the EU.
Ireland, in respect of that attitude on the part of the UK, is in an odd position. We want more than the British want in terms of going beyond the pure free trade area, but we're still very closely linked with the UK, and its one of our major allies on business matters (and one of our main opponents on farming protectionism). With the EU as a balancing force, though, we'd probably move back into the UK's shadow, so we straddle the fence somewhat uneasily.
cordially,
Scofflaw
So are you saying that you believe that every other country in Europe other than the UK acts purely in the interests of the collective group, rather than its own?
That the Benelux countries never saw Europe as a way to gain influence, that Germany and France didnt see it (still do!) as an opportunity to write the rules to their benefit, and that Ireland and Greece weren't after the cash?
if you believe that Europe was driven along because of a search for communal peace and prosperity, I would suggest that you have just swallowed the spin, hook, line and sinker!0 -
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Personally I believe that every country in Europe, including than the UK, are acting largely out of self interest.So are you saying that you believe that every other country in Europe other than the UK acts purely in the interests of the collective group, rather than its own?
One of the principle reasons that other countries in the EU tend to be more 'on board' for the 'European project' is because it is in their self interest. As has been pointed out repeatedly, we no longer live in the nineteenth century where individual nation states could hold pivotal roles in the World. Instead we are rapidly moving towards a World of consolidated blocs - massive federated nations - leaving smaller nation states behind.
The UK has less need for a European superstate; it has long pursued a policy of "being the wise Greek to the bumptious Romans" with regard to the US instead. Other European nations do not share that 'special relationship' with an existing superpower (or in the case of Eastern Europe don't want to return to one) and thus need to look to their collective selves.
History and culture also play a part to the UK's naturally eurosceptic stance though. Memories of recent empire and a long belligerent past with mainland Europe have all left their mark - indeed, it would not be an understatement to suggest that the last time Europe had any serious success in Britain was in 1066.
I don't believe any European nation is wholly eurosceptic or europhilic. None particularly want to lose independence to become a federated state in a größere Europaische Reich, but then again neither do they want to become irrelevant minnows who's future is subject to the inconsistent benevolence of blocs such as the US, China, India or Brazil; where they are not even a federated state.0 -
So are you saying that you believe that every other country in Europe other than the UK acts purely in the interests of the collective group, rather than its own?
That the Benelux countries never saw Europe as a way to gain influence, that Germany and France didnt see it (still do!) as an opportunity to write the rules to their benefit, and that Ireland and Greece weren't after the cash?
if you believe that Europe was driven along because of a search for communal peace and prosperity, I would suggest that you have just swallowed the spin, hook, line and sinker!
If I believed that were purely the case, perhaps so. It's part of it, as is the self-interest outlined both by yourself and by The Corinthian. As he says, the UK is happy to be America's lap dog (and that's a British description of the relationship, by the way!), but the other European countries rather less so.
I think there's also a genuine and strong desire for communal peace and prosperity, and I think suggesting that's just window-dressing is misplaced and somewhat parochial cynicism. 'Peace' as something associated with the EU barely registers in Ireland at moment (12%), but has been up to 55% as an association in countries like Germany that felt the full impact of WW2. So, yes, it's there alright, and it's certainly important to people with a European vision. Why, do you believe that Europe is just a naturally peaceful place?
cordially,
Scofflaw0 -
If I believed that were purely the case, perhaps so. It's part of it, as is the self-interest outlined both by yourself and by The Corinthian. As he says, the UK is happy to be America's lap dog (and that's a British description of the relationship, by the way!), but the other European countries rather less so.
I think there's also a genuine and strong desire for communal peace and prosperity, and I think suggesting that's just window-dressing is misplaced and somewhat parochial cynicism. 'Peace' as something associated with the EU barely registers in Ireland at moment (12%), but has been up to 55% as an association in countries like Germany that felt the full impact of WW2. So, yes, it's there alright, and it's certainly important to people with a European vision. Why, do you believe that Europe is just a naturally peaceful place?
cordially,
Scofflaw
To be fair, I don't think anyone could fail to understand why for historical (and therefore inherently as deep rooted political and social) reasons the British would be far less trusting of the French and Germans than of the Americans0 -
To be fair, I don't think anyone could fail to understand why for historical (and therefore inherently as deep rooted political and social) reasons the British would be far less trusting of the French and Germans than of the Americans
you should imagine what the Irish feel then re the brits0 -
you should imagine what the Irish feel then re the brits
So?
Why are you saying that? What is the relevance of your comment?
I'm sure there may indeed be a deep rooted mistrust, anger, even hatred of British people among Irish people. I haven't asked you to justify, explain, or end this. As I already said, such sentiments are natural and understandable.
Moreover, I doubt the average Briton would be desperately miserable at this news you have just broken. They may however come to realize you exist as a country that they actually share a border with. This either shows your complete irrelevance, or the complete ignorance of the British population as a whole. My opinion is that it is most likely a bit of both.0 -
I think the point is that the British may be less trusting of other European nations, but the historical reasons for this are hardly unique to Britain. Indeed, that Ireland and Britain still "actually share a border" is part of the reason that the Irish would have antipathy towards their neighbours.I'm sure there may indeed be a deep rooted mistrust, anger, even hatred of British people among Irish people. I haven't asked you to justify, explain, or end this. As I already said, such sentiments are natural and understandable.
Looking to the rest of Europe, you'd hardly think that they have had more pleasant experiences at the hands of their own neighbours. In reality Britain has been pretty lucky in this regard, in that it has not suffered invasion in a thousand years. So historical rivalries alone are not a sufficient explanation.
I suspect that national ego is some of it (the belief that Britain is still a superpower), as is the natural inclination towards xenophobia that any 'untouched' island nation would have.
But putting it down to a mistrust of the Germans and French is a bit simplistic. Let's be honest; no one trusts the French!0 -
The Corinthian wrote: »
I suspect that national ego is some of it (the belief that Britain is still a superpower), as is the natural inclination towards xenophobia that any 'untouched' island nation would have.
But putting it down to a mistrust of the Germans and French is a bit simplistic. Let's be honest; no one trusts the French!
I don't think the British consider themselves a superpower in the traditional sense anymore. I think this is a pretty Irish perspective to put on it. The British are proud of their independence and their traditions.
They were one of the colonoial powers who showed remarkable constraint in dismantling their empire, in a very practical way. Unlike for instance the French who definitely still believe they are still some sort of superpower (I say this as someone who has spent considerable time in France), this can be seen in their constant insecurity over their language, their desire to make their colonies French in every way, the kind of desperate statesmanship role that Sharkozy is playing.
For France this is their moment in the sun, their return to global superpower status with Sarkozy at the head of the glorious superbloc the EU at the forefront of global affairs once again.
British people in comparison are far more practical in their imperial ambitions, they have been there done that to a certain extent and I really don't think they share the basic fear that is to a large part the cornerstone of the EU the fear of becoming economically marginalised and a bystander in global affairs. This is the true raison d'etre of the EU, a competitive strategy to deal with the new global order, the era of multiple superstates.
Britain don't feel the need for the EU in the way that the French and German perceive the need for it. This is in large extent due to their imperial legacy. The British are not constantly made to feel their own insignificance in global affairs like the French or Germans. Does anyone really care about what the French papers say outside of France? No because no one can speak French, the French feel this irrelevance keenly. I can't really speak for Germany as I've not spent time there. The British on the other hand know that the world speaks their language, they are much more culturally secure than the French not as dogged by insecurity.
The British didn't push ahead with currency union as they are simply not as convinced of the importance of the EU as other Europeans. In my opinion Britain is much better off taking a bystander role for the moment and letting the EU fall into place around it. The EU can iron out all the cracks over the medium term and then at its leisure Britain can opt for greater interdependence. If Britain expressed a strong interest in joining the Euro would anyone seriously object? Britain will always be able to enter fiscal/political union at a later time so why do it now? Let the others plow ahead and see how things pan out. If events are going badly 50 years down the line and Britain decides it wants to be a greater part of Europe nothing is stopping them from doing so the door will always be open. They are not going to wander off and join the BRIC nations.0 -
Because they have sense. Simple really.0
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thechanger wrote: »so why do they want to leave the EU so badly?
Because we want to be an independent, sovereign nation rather than being ruled by unelected foreigners.
Although we share that idea with every country in the world apart from Ireland and Continental Europe.0 -
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Rule Britannia brigade is doing well now.... Brits still thinks that they are still an Empire has sad....:o
I do not think the Liberal party that are in the coalition are not too happy about it.
Heard on the radio that they do not want to pay for counties like Greece that can still retire at the age of 50 whereas in other courtiers workers have to works another 15 years before they can retire.:(
Yeah, those evil Brits, not wanting to pay money to allow the lazy Greeks to lounge about on their arses all day.
If the Greeks actually started working harder, and paid all their taxes on time, they now wouldn't be up **** Creek without a paddle.
And the British - the people who work longer hours than anyone else in Europe - should keep our hard-earned money to ourselves and stop doling it out to basketcases like Greece.0
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