Why are the British so anti Europe?

heate

The Corinthian wrote: »

heate wrote: »

The absolute lack of expenditure in the Irish economy is!

Not the principle problem, no.

You know what monetary policy is or at least you purport to know.
If you actually do you know you'd understand that the economy was boiling over and we were not able to adjust our interest rates to exercise some modicum of control..

Actually only one part of our economy was 'boiling over' and adjusting interest rates would have adversely effected not only it but all of the economy - even areas that did not need 'cooling down'. Legislation to specifically targeting that sector would have far better served us than any ham-fisted move on interest rates. Does the term 'stamp duty' ring a bell?

Well the problem is te short termism of government in regard to stamp duties etc - the naughties gov loved that wondrous cash cow!

heate

Using phone to post hence the mess up there!
Principle problem I think lack of domestic demand as a very large problem!
Any extra money put into most peoples pockets tomorrow would mean very little to local sme businesses any extra cash coming in to peope will be swallowed up with increases in areas like health insurance and paying down debts.

K-9

heate wrote: »

The Corinthian wrote: »

Do you actually know how one can do this through monetary policy?

You briefly mention devaluation, I presume currency, but have you considered the consequences of this, the alternatives and, most importantly, if devaluation would actually make any difference to Irish economic problems (hint: it wouldn't).

So, tell me more about economics.



I don't know you tell me since you couldn't bloody take note of the fact that I mentioned some of the tools that we did not have access to because we are part of the euro. I'm not saying we'd of actually used them if we had the ability to!
And I have devaluation as an extreme example of what could be done Iceland for example has seen hue increases in price of imports whilst exports have risen and the domestic economy has resurged as a result of the need for Icelandic goods which are cheaper than exports.

It hasn't worked out that great for Iceland either, but I suppose they had their sovereignty:

http://economic-incentives.blogspot.com/2011/11/ireland-and-iceland.html?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+EconomicIncentives+%28Economic+Incentives%29

BlitzKrieg

steve9859 wrote: »

Do you think that the majority of the public want to be told what to do by an unelected group of beauracrats headed up by Merkel and Sarkozy??? What do honestly think would be the result if every European country held a referendum on the treaty tomorrow?

last I checked both Sarkozy and Merkel were elected officials...

And a referendum tomorrow would naturally lose more out of apathy then any euroskeptic majority.

heate

K-9 wrote: »

It hasn't worked out that great for Iceland either, but I suppose they had their sovereignty:

http://economic-incentives.blogspot.com/2011/11/ireland-and-iceland.html?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+EconomicIncentives+%28Economic+Incentives%29

It's the only recent case to compare to - Iceland is a country of 250k odd people which makes it difficult to compare.

My entire EU issue is that we are all merrily going along with it and being the 'golden boy' when in reality we dont have Greek style problems so why are we allowing ourselves to be treated as such

The Corinthian

heate wrote: »

Well the problem is te short termism of government in regard to stamp duties etc - the naughties gov loved that wondrous cash cow!

Not sure how that is a response to what I wrote.

Also there's no such word as 'termism'. Short sightedness is what you wanted to say.

heate

The Corinthian wrote: »

heate wrote: »

Well the problem is te short termism of government in regard to stamp duties etc - the naughties gov loved that wondrous cash cow!

Not sure how that is a response to what I wrote.

Also there's no such word as 'termism'. Short sightedness is what you wanted to say.

Oh sorry there should been a hyphen in that. It's a term used to describe the outlook of bonus led managers in businesses as try sacrifice long term objectives in order to achieve thier own personal bonus objective.
It is short-termism.
Short term plays that ruin long term growth and stability. Buying votes essentially.
SSIA's anyone?
Giant public salaries with little regard to the future costs of pension provisions
I could go on but keeping stamp duty as a lovely little earner at the time and spending extra money and making commitments without considering that a day may come where that income could suddenly dry up.

K-9

heate wrote: »

It's the only recent case to compare to - Iceland is a country of 250k odd people which makes it difficult to compare.

My entire EU issue is that we are all merrily going along with it and being the 'golden boy' when in reality we dont have Greek style problems so why are we allowing ourselves to be treated as such

It does make it difficult to compare, people see 7% unemployment and think isn't that great compared to twice that, forgetting it isn't that great considering they had 1% Unemployment. They also aren't as dependent on multi nationals as we are.

Much as I'd love not be dependent on multi nationals, we are and a devaluation will make exports cheaper but imports dearer.

The Corinthian

heate wrote: »

It is short-termism.

Still not actually a real word. Never mind. Not important really.

Short term plays that ruin long term growth and stability. Buying votes essentially.
SSIA's anyone?
Giant public salaries with little regard to the future costs of pension provisions
I could go on but keeping stamp duty as a lovely little earner at the time and spending extra money and making commitments without considering that a day may come where that income could suddenly dry up.

Indeed, but none of this really has anything to do with the Euro or EU. Ireland's economic problems are principally down to the effects of a property crash and, a certain degree of, mismanagement. Monetary policy control would have done nothing to alleviate this, and in reality there were numerous other, and better, economic tools at our disposal that we simply ignored.

Inability to devalue currency is a much better argument against the Euro for countries such as Italy, that had long used this tool as a means of maintaining competitive in lieu of actually dealing with structural problems in her labour market, but in the case of Ireland, it really was not hugely relevant.

K-9 wrote: »

It does make it difficult to compare, people see 7% unemployment and think isn't that great compared to twice that, forgetting it isn't that great considering they had 1% Unemployment. They also aren't as dependent on multi nationals as we are.

The difference between Iceland's and Ireland's unemployment rates are mainly cultural; Scandinavian and Germanic countries (particularly the protestant one's) stigmatize unemployment and so people tend to get back to work quickly. Ireland, regrettably, still has the old 'living off the fat of the land' attitude to unemployment that seems to accept it almost as an alternative lifestyle.

heate wrote: »

My entire EU issue is that we are all merrily going along with it and being the 'golden boy' when in reality we dont have Greek style problems so why are we allowing ourselves to be treated as such

The Germans do not see us in the same light as the Greeks. Any I've spoken to, as well as the attitude of their press, tends to be that perhaps we got a bit cocky but have ultimately put our heads down to sort the mess out, and they have a fair bit of respect for that.

They don't think highly of the Greeks, to say the least.

davekel

Maura74 wrote: »

Rule Britannia brigade is doing well now.... Brits still thinks that they are still an Empire has sad....:o

What and the EU isn't an Empire ?? Fair play to David Cameron for standing up to the european elite at least he has some principles.

veloc123

steve9859 wrote: »

Im half British myself and have just moved to London from Dublin to take advantage of better job opportunities and far better pay

Your post just smacks of anti britishness. What about the fact that the British dont want to lose their economic sovereignty (just like the Irish don't, the difference being the Irish have no choice), and want to protect London from the German and French agenda to take it down.

Everyone goes on about the UK now being on the periphery, and won't be able to influence European decisions. I would ask, the periphery of what? A eurozone that is no closer to solving its problems than it was 2 years ago. And what decisions are these that people speak of, that the UK is going to suffer from so badly.

The Irish voted no to Lisbon remember, before it was steamrollered through. Hardly the mark of a completely pro-European nation!!

And since when does Europe represent a "fair distribution of wealth"?!?!?

The truth hurts Del boy this is exactly how the British perceive Europe..I have lived in London myself and it is the most xenophobic place ever...You could learn a lot from Berlin...a fantastic example of a great city...

davekel

veloc123 wrote: »

The truth hurts Del boy this is exactly how the British perceive Europe..I have lived in London myself and it is the most xenophobic place ever...You could learn a lot from Berlin...a fantastic example of a great city...

Your having a laugh right , Berlin ! Do you know how many Neo Nazi groups are in Berlin ??

The Corinthian

davekel wrote: »

Your having a laugh right , Berlin ! Do you know how many Neo Nazi groups are in Berlin ??

Do you? Please cite evidence in your answer.

veloc123

davekel wrote: »

Your having a laugh right , Berlin ! Do you know how many Neo Nazi groups are in Berlin ??

As many as England....The BNP is only the tip of the Iceberg...

See the movie "Football Factory"

davekel

The Corinthian wrote: »

Do you? Please cite evidence in your answer.

Neo Nazi March in Berlin 2005

The Corinthian

davekel wrote: »

Neo Nazi March in Berlin 2005

Not what I asked; do you know how many Neo Nazi groups are in Berlin?

veloc123

davekel wrote: »

Neo Nazi March in Berlin 2005

Just change the flags to Union Jacks and hey presto...

heate

I don't know but short-termism is an accepted term. José Scheinkman (Princeton Economist) seems to be fond of the term and sure its only princeton.
You'd argue with your own toes my good man.
And I'm not saying that individual German's are treating us like the Greeks - the franco-german EU leaders have thrown us into the same basket - the opinions of the few germans you've talked to don't matter a damn.

The Corinthian

heate wrote: »

I don't know but short-termism is an accepted term. José Scheinkman (Princeton Economist) seems to be fond of the term and sure its only princeton.
You'd argue with your own toes my good man.

I'm just pointing out that it's not and English word, but then again the Oxford English dictionary seems to recognise it, so what do I know.

And I'm not saying that individual German's are treating us like the Greeks - the franco-german EU leaders have thrown us into the same basket - the opinions of the few germans you've talked to don't matter a damn.

Not really the same basket. Public opinion in Germany matters a lot to the decisions of their politicians and that public opinion is far more predisposed to paying to help Ireland than Greece.

Fratton Fred

veloc123 wrote: »

The truth hurts Del boy this is exactly how the British perceive Europe..I have lived in London myself and it is the most xenophobic place ever...You could learn a lot from Berlin...a fantastic example of a great city...

You've obviously never lived in Dublin.

Bottle_of_Smoke

veloc123 wrote: »

The truth hurts Del boy this is exactly how the British perceive Europe..I have lived in London myself and it is the most xenophobic place ever...You could learn a lot from Berlin...a fantastic example of a great city...

what on earth are you talking about. london's the most multicultural city i've been to

Boskowski

davekel wrote: »

Neo Nazi March in Berlin 2005

They are insignificant politically and whereever they have managed to get a couple of local parliament sears they have been quickly exposed as the clueless idiots they are. Just look at the election figures.

Having said that they are dangerous people and they have committed violent racially motivated killings. Only recently a neo-Nazi terror cell has been exposed in Jena and the prosecutors are currently throwing the book at them.

davekel

veloc123 wrote: »

As many as England....The BNP is only the tip of the Iceberg...

but the BNP aren't a Neo Nazi group ?

to be honest the BNP are not all bad , they have a lot of good qualities.

Boskowski

Sure Hitler wasn't all bad. He built the Autobahns after all...

Fratton Fred

Boskowski wrote: »

Sure Hitler wasn't all bad. He built the Autobahns after all...

And did wonders for animal rights.

The Corinthian

"I do not consider Hitler to be as bad as he is depicted. He is showing an ability that is amazing and seems to be gaining his victories without much bloodshed" - Mahatma Gandhi, May 1940

"If our country were defeated, I hope we should find a champion as admirable (as Hitler) to restore our courage and lead us back to our place among the nations" - Winston Churchill, Great Contemporaries, 1937

Apanachi

davekel wrote: »

Your having a laugh right , Berlin ! Do you know how many Neo Nazi groups are in Berlin ??

I'm with davekel on this one (and I live in Berlin)


I also have no idea how many Neo Nazi groups there are in here, but the place is full of them...

steve9859

veloc123 wrote: »

The truth hurts Del boy this is exactly how the British perceive Europe..I have lived in London myself and it is the most xenophobic place ever...You could learn a lot from Berlin...a fantastic example of a great city...

Wow, what nonsense....and Im glad many have come to the defence of London - the most multicultural city I have ever been to. It is certainly more multicultural than Dublin.

The problem is that many Irish, including, disappointingly, some Irish radio and newspaper commentators, see Euro-skepticism as the same as xenophobia, when it absolutely isnt. Not wanting to be subject to the same political and fiscal pacts as France and germany, does not mean I hate the french and germans. I wish people would get that, because I was quite insulted hearing the comments from some of the Irish radio chat show hosts the day after DC wielded the veto, especially that guy on newstalk at 10.00pm - he obviously hates the british

The Corinthian

steve9859 wrote: »

Wow, what nonsense....and Im glad many have come to the defence of London - the most multicultural city I have ever been to. It is certainly more multicultural than Dublin.

I'd agree.

The problem is that many Irish, including, disappointingly, some Irish radio and newspaper commentators, see Euro-skepticism as the same as xenophobia, when it absolutely isnt. Not wanting to be subject to the same political and fiscal pacts as France and germany, does not mean I hate the french and germans.

You don't actually have to hate anyone to be xenophobic, you just have to mistrust them.

You see, I would take far more seriously denials of xenophobia, except for the fact that while, for example, the British may not want to be subject to the same political and fiscal pacts as France and Germany, the Germans, for example, are happy to throw their lot in and be subject to the same political and fiscal pacts as France and Britain. How's that?

One may argue that it's because they have far more influence in those pacts, but that's hardly their fault is it? Britain has consistently kept Europe at 'arms length' since even before it's membership to the EEC and naturally has been relegated to a secondary position of influence.

One may instead argue that it's not xenophobia, but self-interest; there's no point joining a greater bloc if you're doing fine and going to do fine in the future. But Britain isn't; that's why Britain first went on to found EFTA and when this didn't work out joined the EEC. Evolve or die.

From a position of self-interest, in the long run, it makes little sense for Britain to remain on the outside unless she is planning to become Europe's new Isle of Man in the future. Should a European super-bloc form and Britain is not in, she will be dwarfed economically, politically and even militarily in a World dominated my superstates. Like nineteenth century Portugal, she might cling to the pride of an imperial past, but in practical terms will have become irrelevant.

So given such a long run inevitability, why would a seemingly intelligent nation overwhelmingly stake a eurosceptic stance? Do they want to become the new Isle of Man (or look west to become the new Puerto Rico)? Why the distrust to the level that they cannot even play the game?

And in discussions on this topic, that's what ultimately it comes down to, because once you've examined the pros and cons, debunked the various, often ridiculous, economic arguments against most British (or Irish) eurosceptics tend to fall back on arguments of how "we're not the same as the Europeans" and and that's when tribalism finally comes up for air.

hatrickpatrick

JoeGil wrote: »

1. Lack of understanding of what Europe is all about. The concept of peaceful respectful cohabitation and as fair as possible distribution of wealth among it's people is difficult to to understand for the british bulldog mentality.

Respectful cohabitation?
You mean where we all have to respect Merkel and Sarkozy as "heads of the household" but get almost no respect in return?

I used to be pro EU, believe it or not. One single sentence was what changed my mind.
"The Irish must vote again" - Nicholas Sarkozy.

Either we're all in this together or we're not. If we're not, they should be willing to come out and admit that. Who elected those two as emperor and empress anyway? Ironically, from speaking to Germans of whom I know several, the average German isn't too happy about Merkel positioning herself as a ruler of Europe at the expense of domestic policy and wellbeing. Don't know about the French, but I have heard that Sarkozy is generally very unpopular at the moment.

I'm going to take a wild guess here and assume that when the German and French people elected Merkel and Sarkozy, they did not elect them with the intention of installing them to the self styled monarch-esque roles they have assumed in the EU. Certainly in the case of Germany it would appear that many Germans just want their leaders to run their own country properly at the moment.

I don't like the "My way or the highway" approach to us ceding sovereignty to a centralized federal Europe, and I'm guessing that's a part of why the Brits don't want it either (again, based purely on conversations I've had with English people, so I don't say this on any official authority or study, just personal experience).