Why are the British so anti Europe?

steve9859

The Corinthian wrote: »

I'd agree.

You don't actually have to hate anyone to be xenophobic, you just have to mistrust them.

You see, I would take far more seriously denials of xenophobia, except for the fact that while, for example, the British may not want to be subject to the same political and fiscal pacts as France and Germany, the Germans, for example, are happy to throw their lot in and be subject to the same political and fiscal pacts as France and Britain. How's that?

One may argue that it's because they have far more influence in those pacts, but that's hardly their fault is it? Britain has consistently kept Europe at 'arms length' since even before it's membership to the EEC and naturally has been relegated to a secondary position of influence.

One may instead argue that it's not xenophobia, but self-interest; there's no point joining a greater bloc if you're doing fine and going to do fine in the future. But Britain isn't; that's why Britain first went on to found EFTA and when this didn't work out joined the EEC. Evolve or die.

From a position of self-interest, in the long run, it makes little sense for Britain to remain on the outside unless she is planning to become Europe's new Isle of Man in the future. Should a European super-bloc form and Britain is not in, she will be dwarfed economically, politically and even militarily in a World dominated my superstates. Like nineteenth century Portugal, she might cling to the pride of an imperial past, but in practical terms will have become irrelevant.

So given such a long run inevitability, why would a seemingly intelligent nation overwhelmingly stake a eurosceptic stance? Do they want to become the new Isle of Man (or look west to become the new Puerto Rico)? Why the distrust to the level that they cannot even play the game?

And in discussions on this topic, that's what ultimately it comes down to, because once you've examined the pros and cons, debunked the various, often ridiculous, economic arguments against most British (or Irish) eurosceptics tend to fall back on arguments of how "we're not the same as the Europeans" and and that's when tribalism finally comes up for air.

But your big assumption is that Europe, as a bloc, will be one of those global superpowers, and won't get stifled by Brussels generated red tape, and a generation of austerity. There is little to suggest anything other than a decline relative to other global trading blocs at the moment

Xenophobia is defined as an Unreasonable or Irrational fear of things foreign. I am not so sure that it is unreasonable right now

meglome

hatrickpatrick wrote: »

I used to be pro EU, believe it or not. One single sentence was what changed my mind.
"The Irish must vote again" - Nicholas Sarkozy.

Okay I believe you but I'm just worried in case he says something you don't like about Guinness, or Burgers, or Cashmere sweaters; basically whatever you're in to and you then have to stop liking them as well.

Of course the sad thing is most of the rest of us don't really take that much notice of what he says. After all he's a national politician who says what he believes will play well at home and has zero say in whether we have a referendum or two or six. We had a government which decided that based on our constitution. You'll forgive me but basing your like or dislike of anything based on what Sarkosy says is particularly sad. And honestly when I say sad I'm being generous.

meglome

steve9859 wrote: »

But your big assumption is that Europe, as a bloc, will be one of those global superpowers, and won't get stifled by Brussels generated red tape, and a generation of austerity. There is little to suggest anything other than a decline relative to other global trading blocs at the moment

Xenophobia is defined as an Unreasonable or Irrational fear of things foreign. I am not so sure that it is unreasonable right now

But that's the whole point, "Brussels" isn't "foreign". The EU is as much Britain as anyone else, for all Britain's Euro-scepticism.

View

hatrickpatrick wrote: »

I used to be pro EU, believe it or not. One single sentence was what changed my mind.

God, you better not listen to Jackie Healy-Rae or you'll be an ardent Unionist by the end of doing so.

oscarBravo

steve9859 wrote: »

But your big assumption is that Europe... won't get stifled by Brussels generated red tape...

I keep hearing about all this Brussels-generated red tape. I've been in business for myself for ten years, including trading with other EU countries as well as countries outside the EU, and I've never seen a centimetre of this tape that's allegedly stifling small businesses like mine.

In fact, where I mostly hear about EU red tape is from big British companies who seem offended by having to comply with such nasty regulations as ensuring their employees have adequate rest breaks, and not being allowed to discriminate against women. More accurately, I hear about the burden on these companies from Euroskeptic Tory MPs who never shut up about red tape but never seem to actually offer any concrete examples.

Scofflaw

oscarBravo wrote: »

I keep hearing about all this Brussels-generated red tape. I've been in business for myself for ten years, including trading with other EU countries as well as countries outside the EU, and I've never seen a centimetre of this tape that's allegedly stifling small businesses like mine.

In fact, where I mostly hear about EU red tape is from big British companies who seem offended by having to comply with such nasty regulations as ensuring their employees have adequate rest breaks, and not being allowed to discriminate against women. More accurately, I hear about the burden on these companies from Euroskeptic Tory MPs who never shut up about red tape but never seem to actually offer any concrete examples.

Have to agree with that. Doing business with other EU countries is also incredibly simple compared to how it used to be.

cordially,
Scofflaw

KeithAFC

matthew8 wrote: »

Because the British have their heads screwed on, care about independence and don't want to be sucked into a socialist superstate.

Spot on. What is wrong with a Prime Minister making a big decision? At least he is making a big decision and in his view, it is the right thing for our country (UK resident obviously).

Scofflaw

KeithAFC wrote: »

Spot on. What is wrong with a Prime Minister making a big decision? At least he is making a big decision and in his view, it is the right thing for our country (UK resident obviously).

...like Lenihan making a big decision, one that in his view was the right thing for his country?

I hope yours works out cheaper.

cordially,
Scofflaw

steve9859

Scofflaw wrote: »

KeithAFC wrote: »

Spot on. What is wrong with a Prime Minister making a big decision? At least he is making a big decision and in his view, it is the right thing for our country (UK resident obviously).

...like Lenihan making a big decision, one that in his view was the right thing for his country?

I hope yours works out cheaper.

cordially,
Scofflaw

It is just as likely to end up cheaper than full on engagement with the eurozone. DC has already made it clear that contributions to whatever rescue mechanism is put in place will be capped well below the number we are being asked for - more difficult to hold that line if you are inside. And that sits just fine with me as a Uk taxpayer. It is france and Germany's issue, and they should pay, not the UK taxpayer

steve9859

In any case, it seems that major efforts are underway to get the Uk back to the table. It would appear that we are still in the negotiating phase of this thing.

Of course the spin will go both ways. Scofflaw and the europhiles will point to DC backtracking. DC and the British eurosceptics will point to the concessions that the UK will get from Europe as the price for britains re-engagement.

jc84

why couldn't they just keep it simple, have a an open trade agreement in europe and leave it at that, why bother with fiscal integration, the euro etc., they should have kept it at trade agreement and leave countries fend for themselves, all the larger countries giving money to smaller countries is ridiculous, let countries rule themselves and fend for themselves

The Corinthian

steve9859 wrote: »

But your big assumption is that Europe, as a bloc, will be one of those global superpowers, and won't get stifled by Brussels generated red tape, and a generation of austerity.

I completely accept that this is an assumption. However, whatever the long term probability of it's success, the relegation of nation states to the position of 'also rans' in the long run is an almost certainty at this point.

In short, the EU may decline relative to other global trading blocs, but it will still be far more powerful than any individual European nation states.

Xenophobia is defined as an Unreasonable or Irrational fear of things foreign. I am not so sure that it is unreasonable right now

However, I've seen little evidence that it is reasonable. There are certainly valid points being made about the present Franco-German dominance of the EU, but this does not explain the last forty years of British euroscepticism.

Even now, many of the concerns appear almost hysterical in nature and were some truth borne in them I would have to say that they are probably a product of a self-fulfilling prophecy by British euroscepticism that chose to avoid European engagement until they had become politically irrelevant - if there is Franco-German dominance of the EU today, it is in large measure because of the UK.

Scofflaw

steve9859 wrote: »

In any case, it seems that major efforts are underway to get the Uk back to the table. It would appear that we are still in the negotiating phase of this thing.

Of course the spin will go both ways. Scofflaw and the europhiles will point to DC backtracking. DC and the British eurosceptics will point to the concessions that the UK will get from Europe as the price for britains re-engagement.

Of course we're still in the negotiating phase. And it was never the case that Cameron's actions would lead to the UK somehow not being involved in the talks! As I've pointed out elsewhere, Sarkozy is probably delighted with him.

amused,
Scofflaw

Fratton Fred

Scofflaw wrote: »

Of course we're still in the negotiating phase. And it was never the case that Cameron's actions would lead to the UK somehow not being involved in the talks! As I've pointed out elsewhere, Sarkozy is probably delighted with him.

amused,
Scofflaw

Maybe he is, what he and his French colleagues need to do at the moment though is stfu about Britain.

The head of a country's central bank calling for a fellow country's debt to be down graded is ****ing outrageous.

whatstherush

Fratton Fred wrote: »

Maybe he is, what he and his French colleagues need to do at the moment though is stfu about Britain.

The head of a country's central bank calling for a fellow country's debt to be down graded is ****ing outrageous.

Fred, what is wrong specifically about the below statement
"A downgrade [for France] doesn’t seem justified to me when you look at the economic fundamentals. Or if it is, they should start by downgrading the UK, which has a bigger deficit, as much debt, more inflation, weaker growth and where bank lending is collapsing,”

Fratton Fred

whatstherush wrote: »

Fred, what is wrong specifically about the below statement
"A downgrade [for France] doesn’t seem justified to me when you look at the economic fundamentals. Or if it is, they should start by downgrading the UK, which has a bigger deficit, as much debt, more inflation, weaker growth and where bank lending is collapsing,”

Because he is the head of a state bank, he shouldn't be talking about downgrading anyone's debt.

Scofflaw

Fratton Fred wrote: »

Maybe he is, what he and his French colleagues need to do at the moment though is stfu about Britain.

The head of a country's central bank calling for a fellow country's debt to be down graded is ****ing outrageous.

True - although saying he was "calling for it" is the wrong end of the stick. He seems to have said it as an illustration of the "political agenda" of the ratings companies.

cordially,
Scofflaw

Fratton Fred

Scofflaw wrote: »

True - although saying he was "calling for it" is the wrong end of the stick. he seems to have said it as an illustration of the "political agenda" of the ratings companies.

cordially,
Scofflaw

The ratings agencies seem to have their own anti euro agenda, but. The fact France is getting sucked into the euro debt crisis would be enough for anyone to start questioning their credit rating.

His comments, on the back of comments by the French finance minister and the childish comments made by Sarkozy aren't exactly within the spirit of the EU.

Fratton Fred

On the current interaction between the leaders, we have the British PM being aloof and full of self righteousness, a French leader throwing tantrums and behaving like a spoilt child and a German leader being dignified to the point of arrogance.

National stereotypes? Of course not.......

Scofflaw

Fratton Fred wrote: »

The ratings agencies seem to have their own anti euro agenda, but. The fact France is getting sucked into the euro debt crisis would be enough for anyone to start questioning their credit rating.

His comments, on the back of comments by the French finance minister and the childish comments made by Sarkozy aren't exactly within the spirit of the EU.

Is that the same EU in which de Gaulle blocked UK accession for years...?

cordially,
Scofflaw

Fratton Fred

Scofflaw wrote: »

Is that the same EU in which de Gaulle blocked UK accession for years...?

cordially,
Scofflaw

It could be, also the same one where one country banned the import of British built Nissans for years, banned British beef after it was declared safe and whose farmers regularly hijack lorries carrying British lamb and burn the cargo.

But we are off topic, or are we?

Scofflaw

Fratton Fred wrote: »

It could be, also the same one where one country banned the import of British built Nissans for years, banned British beef after it was declared safe and whose farmers regularly hijack lorries carrying British lamb and burn the cargo.

But we are off topic, or are we?

Perhaps not...on the flip side, though, the UK is often regarded as having done its level best to derail movement towards political/social union in the EU, trying as far as possible to keep it as largely an economic union. So the relationship is perhaps characterised as 'uneasy' on both sides.

Also, the UK and France are apparently capable of really quite deep integration on a bilateral basis, such as their decision to pool defence capabilities.

cordially,
Scofflaw

Fratton Fred

Scofflaw wrote: »

Perhaps not...on the flip side, though, the UK is often regarded as having done its level best to derail movement towards political/social union in the EU, trying as far as possible to keep it as largely an economic union. So the relationship is perhaps characterised as 'uneasy' on both sides.

Also, the UK and France are apparently capable of really quite deep integration on a bilateral basis, such as their decision to pool defence capabilities.

cordially,
Scofflaw

France and the UK are like two siblings.

hatrickpatrick

meglome wrote: »

Okay I believe you but I'm just worried in case he says something you don't like about Guinness, or Burgers, or Cashmere sweaters; basically whatever you're in to and you then have to stop liking them as well.

Of course the sad thing is most of the rest of us don't really take that much notice of what he says. After all he's a national politician who says what he believes will play well at home and has zero say in whether we have a referendum or two or six. We had a government which decided that based on our constitution. You'll forgive me but basing your like or dislike of anything based on what Sarkosy says is particularly sad. And honestly when I say sad I'm being generous.

Do you not understand the principle here?
If he believes he has the right to tell another country how to govern itself, he is a serious megalomanic. And I do not want to live in a US of E run by himself and Merkel. If we all get a say then fair enough. If it's their way or the highway, then in my view they can f*ck off.

Yes, I fully admit that national sovereignty is an extremely important issue for me. Does that make me naive or idealist? Perhaps. My family has a long history of fighting for our freedom, and I don't want to see that thrown away less than 100 years after they attained it.

The Irish people should decide what is and is not illegal in this country, not some "directive" passed by unelected bureaucrats. I don't want to live in a European federal system because I like the feeling that people power has the ability to actually win, and that won't happen if one out of 4 million becomes one out of hundreds of millions.

In my view, we should be moving in the exact opposite direction, towards more local governance, not towards our voices just being tiny squeaks as part of a much bigger picture. This was precisely the main reason people wanted independence from Britain, the Irish people not having enough of a say in parliament on the laws which affect Irish people, since they were a minority among a much bigger group of MPs.

The more local government gets, the more democratic it is. Conversely, the more you delegate power to gargantuan bodies, the less say each ordinary individual has in the laws with affect them. It's pretty much that simple, IMO. That's why I oppose any further handover of sovereignty to anyone other than the Irish people.

veloc123

steve9859 wrote: »

Wow, what nonsense....and Im glad many have come to the defence of London - the most multicultural city I have ever been to. It is certainly more multicultural than Dublin.

The problem is that many Irish, including, disappointingly, some Irish radio and newspaper commentators, see Euro-skepticism as the same as xenophobia, when it absolutely isnt. Not wanting to be subject to the same political and fiscal pacts as France and germany, does not mean I hate the french and germans. I wish people would get that, because I was quite insulted hearing the comments from some of the Irish radio chat show hosts the day after DC wielded the veto, especially that guy on newstalk at 10.00pm - he obviously hates the british

Kind of reminds you of the relationship between the British and the rest of the world...

veloc123

Fratton Fred wrote: »

You've obviously never lived in Dublin.

I am from Dublin....London is anti-foreigner plain and simple...

Boskowski

Amazed this didn't get any mention yet: http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/world/2011/1220/1224309294271.html

The Irish Times - Tuesday, December 20, 2011 - MARK HENNESSY, London Editor

GERMANY MADE a major effort yesterday to get the United Kingdom back on board for next year’s European Union treaty negotiations during a London meeting between British foreign secretary William Hague and German foreign minister Guido Westerwelle.

Speaking afterwards, Mr Westerwelle declared: “It is essential no one give up on Europe. I am here to say that Great Britain should be part of Europe, that we are in this together. doesn’t mean we give up. We don’t give up our common goal as we have common interests.”

While Mr Hague stressed that many other issues were discussed, Mr Westerwelle made clear that his visit was principally aimed at resolving differences between the UK and other EU states in the wake of the Brussels summit 10 days ago.

“For Germany, the UK is an indispensable partner in the EU and there is no doubt for us that we want to make the next steps in the EU together as 27, and with Croatia as 28. We think we have a common destiny,” he said, adding later, “You count on us, and we count on you.”

The strength of Mr Westerwelle’s remarks clearly illustrate Germany’s desire to get the UK back into upcoming talks as a full partner, not just as an observer. They come after a conversation last week between German chancellor Angela Merkel and British prime minister David Cameron.

Repeatedly, Mr Westerwelle, who spoke in English in an effort to make sure that his remarks made the largest possible impact with British TV stations, emphasised that he had come to “build bridges over troubled waters”.

The EU, he insisted, did not have designs on the City of London, saying that German, French, Spanish and Italian banks had invested heavily there.

Drawing on his own past and that of Germany, Mr Westerwelle, who is 50 later this month, sought to explain to British public opinion the central importance of the European Union for his country: “Europe is more than just a currency.”

The EU had helped Germany deal “with the darkest chapter of our past”. Reunification, for Germans, was not just “reunification of Germany, but also the reunification of Europe”.

“For us Europe is not only our destiny, it’s also our desire, it’s a lesson we learned. And so, please understand, for us, Europe is much more than a currency or a single market.”

Mr Westerwelle said this was “not the first time that we have to find answers after a controversy and we will find answers once again, yes we will. This is our goal and this is our duty and we will make it.”

Mr Westerwelle told a story from his own experience, saying he had gone into a small shop in rural France during a camping holiday with some friends in Brittany in France when he was a teenager.

“I went into a single-room shop to buy something, together with my two school friends, 14-15 years old, and there was a lady, she was very old . . . and she started to cry.

“She saw me: very fair hair, blue eyes, slim,” he said, adding that he had spoken with “a horrible” French accent.

“When I tried to speak French, she started to cry and went back into the kitchen and then her daughter came out.

“She was about twentysomething, thirtysomething and she said to us young, three boys, this has nothing to do with you, it is because my father, her husband, was killed by the Germans in the second World War,” Mr Westerwelle said, to considerable effect on his listeners.

First thing I saw this morning at the gas station was the daily mail headline 'Germany begs us to stay' and something with 'surrender to our veto'. Bless. Ah well if it makes them happy so be it...

Oh and I'm all for it. It's just directed at the daily mail that.

veloc123

Boskowski wrote: »

Amazed this didn't get any mention yet: http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/world/2011/1220/1224309294271.html

First thing I saw this morning at the gas station was the daily mail headline 'Germany begs us to stay' and something with 'surrender to our veto'. Bless. Ah well if it makes them happy so be it...

Oh and I'm all for it. It's just directed at the daily mail that.

Like your name Boskowski.....the alter ego of Bosco or just his polish frenemy

KINGVictor

veloc123 wrote: »

I am from Dublin....London is anti-foreigner plain and simple...

That is totally incorrect. I have lived in both cities and London is more immigrant friendly than Dublin by miles.

jc84

KINGVictor wrote: »

That is totally incorrect. I have lived in both cities and London is more immigrant friendly than Dublin by miles.

+1