condensing oil boiler upgrade

Plombier

My argument is that I am referring to as I said one of the most respected institutes in the world(along with my personal 35 years experience), your argument is ????????

heinbloed

heinbloed wrote: »

Try to understand the written word, Gary71. Feelings won't help, it's plain text.
.

See you've no practical experience:) i'v cried many a late night when I havn't got a boiler going:o and I had plenty of plain text:)

And as for being forced to fit condensing boilers, most of my experience is as a London based British gas engineer and in the Uk you are forced to fit condensing boilers.

Plombier

Plombier wrote: »

My argument is that I am referring to as I said one of the most respected institutes in the world(along with my personal 35 years experience), your argument is ????????

Ask him what he does for a living, he doesn't like that one:D

Iwannahurl

@Heinbloed: fair enough re advertising claims generally. I posted the quote and the link merely as a reference to the weather compensation issue.

I think my general point stands, however. Add-on technology such as weather compensation is intended to optimise the efficiency of a condensing boiler. In general though I would question the cost-efficiency of grafting a condensing boiler and associated technology onto a less than optimal domestic setup. There is expense involved, and if the aim is to save fuel (for economic and environmental reasons) then it needs to be shown that there is a significant saving and recovery of costs in a reasonable time period. Insulation is analogous: you could spend vast sums on add-ons and upgrades but returns may rapidly diminish if your starting point is far less than optimal and you don't take great care to upgrade in an integrated way.

I know of installations where weather compensation was fitted only as a add on and they reduced their fuel costs so they do serve a purpose( and no I don't have a linky)

heinbloed

Plombier wrote:

My argument is that I am referring to as I said one of the most respected institutes in the world(along with my personal 35 years experience), your argument is ????????

This is how the concil argued versus Galilieo. A joke of an argument.

So sure you must have a hand book you can quote?Titel, publisher, page number, ISBN number please. Since you don't have a www. link, which would cut the discussion short.....

All we need is science, facts and numbers, statistics. A plain question not answered - sure the reason for this is ignorance and not ill meaning.

heinbloed

heinbloed wrote: »

. A plain question not answered - sure the reason for this is ignorance and not ill meaning.

OMG you are so funny

heinbloed

Gary71 - who has never meassured the condensation caused by a condensing boiler but 'knows' so much about their efficiency- tells us now about

weather compensation

:

I know of installations where weather compensation was fitted only as a add on and they reduced their fuel costs so they do serve a purpose( and no I don't have a linky)

And the meassurements? Consumptions with WC (ahem) compared to consumption without WC ? Nothing ? No comparrison?

Maybe the system was installed by an incompetent installer, overdimensioned, not balanced, the manual not understood/explained, TRVs forgotten ....

How efficient/wastive was the heating system working? What other meassurements had been available? Reducing the temperature spread, the flow and return temperature, advise of the users how to switch the unit on or off, how to adjust the boiler's temperature and pump function.....any TV set demands a bit of user's input.

But you 'know' .....that's good, an ideal phrase for a job application (smiley).

Numbers please, no rumours.

Plombier

You are a stupid stupid man I have quoted to the texts that I refer to, I have a complete and full understanding of the subject and it is quite obvious that it is you who can't comprehend, please please read something somewhere on the subject before you reply again.

heinbloed

Plombier wrote when asked for sources :

You are a stupid stupid man I have quoted to the texts that I refer to, I have a complete and full understanding of the subject and it is quite obvious that it is you who can't comprehend, please please read something somewhere on the subject before you reply again.

You do not seem to understand what scientific evidence is, Plombier.
Not quotes are considered as evidence but sources to information based on repeatable experience.

And sources you did not deliver. So again in plain words:

1.)What statistical evidence is there that weather compensation units do save on fuel consumption in Irish homes ?

2.) Are fuel savings profitable for the home owner- if achieved ?

Now sources, statistical research, science.

We can all read and do not hesitate to order the books you're quoting if you're quoting books. We will look at ALL sources to follow your argument. But deliver.

Title, publisher, page number, ISBN . Or a www. link .

heinbloed

heinbloed wrote: »

Gary71 - who has never meassured the condensation caused by a condensing boiler

Why would i,

I love your arrogance a book led opinion on the rights and wrongs of the heating world

heinbloed wrote: »

Maybe the system was installed by an incompetent installer, overdimensioned, not balanced, the manual not understood/explained, TRVs forgotten ....

How efficient/wastive was the heating system working? What other meassurements had been available? Reducing the temperature spread, the flow and return temperature, advise of the users how to switch the unit on or off, how to adjust the

Or maybe they just work;)

heinbloed wrote: »

But you 'know' .....that's good, an ideal phrase for a job application (smiley).

No need, luckily for me I seem to have a lot of people convinced I'm good at what I do:eek:, long may it last:)

heinbloed

Plombier gave us a hint for which I searched via google. And this came up:

http://www.cibse.org/content/documents/publications/Publications%20catalogue%20finalweb.pdf

A 'document' calling itself a publications cataloque.

On page 39 a chapter : " rules of thumb "

We are looking for scientific evidence, Plombier, for statistics, repeatable and plausible research. Not rules of thumbs based on wishfull thinking, on advertising material.

C'mon, that can't be your only argument in lieu for weather compensation units. A bit of professionalism please and we will be convinced.

Plombier

Title, publisher, page number, ISBN . Or a www. link .

I have already quoted the above and referenced it in my posts, you either chose to ignore it or you don't read other peoples posts.

Can you show where you are getting your information that weather compensation does not achieve fuel savings.

As everybody else disagrees with you it is incumbent upon you to produce this information to back up your claim.

Can you do this facts and figures ????????????????

Plombier

I gave you the name and the ISBN, but you refer to an entirely different publication as I said you don't read other peoples posts.

This is the the description of the book that I referenced.


Guide H: Building control systems

Good controls are vital for the safe, efficient operation of a modern
building. A control system must not only keep the inside of a
building comfortable for the occupants, it must keep the HVAC
plant operating efficiently, and be capable of two-way
communication with the personnel charged with its operation.
The complexity of systems varies, but whatever the structure
size good controls maximise energy conservation and reduce
harmful emissions.

Guide H covers all the key areas without relying too heavily on
mathematical formulas, making it easy-to-read and accessible to all
professions related to the design, construction and maintenance of
a building.

The Guide aims to provide readers with an understanding of
modern controls systems so that they have the knowledge to chose
the proper control system for their building, and ensure that it is
installed, commissioned and maintained properly

You wont find this on the internet if you are serious about whatever it is that you do in this industry you will have to spent approx. €100 to purchase this book and then you will have the facts and figures.

As I said it is one of the most respected institutes in our industry and if you choose to ignore it it speaks volumes about you.!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

heinbloed

Plombier wrote:

I have already quoted the above and referenced it in my posts, you either chose to ignore it or you don't read other peoples posts.

Read your post again, Plombier. No scientific evidence for the benefit of weather compensation units have you delivered when asked. Only a British cataloque.

The anti-thesis could be backed-up by an Argos cataloque, to play on a level field, Plombier. Many gimmiks in there saving much more energy than a weather compensation unit, for a fraction of investment. And all proven on a plumber's level of science.

"plombier" is French , it means plumber. Is that correct?
3.5 years aprenticeship, at least 2 more years on-site experience, maitre's school for 2-3 years...... there must be some books in the shelf of such an experienced man. 10 years of guarantee by French law on every plumbing job, sure there is a back up on fuel saving claims when installing a weather compensation unit ?



Please again Plombier:

Titles, publishers and page numbers, ISBN. Of statistical scientific research. That's all we are looking for.

Evidence, no cataloques.

Plombier

It's impossible to open your closed mind.http://www.cibse.org/
visit this site open your closed mind and try to learn something.

And yes I am a plumber time served with a lot of invaluable experience gained.

I also spent a number of years in part education (Certificate in Building Services Engineering).

What is your background are you qualified in any way in this industry.

heinbloed

Plombier wrote:

As I said it is one of the most respected institutes in our industry and if you choose to ignore it it speaks volumes about you.!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

You know that these were the words of the inquisor when confronting Gallileus with the works of Aristoteles?


You need education, Plombier, to be part of a progressive discussion.

No cataloques were ever accepted as scientific evidence. Only for demagogues a catalogue of dogmas is a hold fast.

For us men of labour only science counts, numbers. Not recommendations or rules. No catalogues.

Again please :

Scientific research showing the benefit of an investment into weather control units, for the Irish climate, for the Irish household.

I'll sell you a magnet for your boiler or your water pipe with the arguments you've brought so far.

Plombier

Our posts have crossed but as you can see I have already given you my background in education and experience.

Can you give yours please????????????

It sounds as if you are unqualified to continue posting on this forum most of what you say is nonsense.

Because you can shout louder does not make you right.

Plombier

heinbloed you in most of your post advise posters to get the advise or a qualified heating engineer, when I reference the CIBSE you call it an argos catalogue.

Even you have to see the total hypocrisy here.

heinbloed

This is a technical forum, Plombier. Not a personal exchange forum.

Try to concentrate on technical questions, o.k.?
On the one question which there is still open in this technical discussion:

What is the scientifically proven benefit for an Irish household to spend money on a weather compensation unit for their heating system ?

Read what you have answered so far.

heinbloed

heinbloed wrote: »

This is a technical forum,.

Yep, and what are you qualified in ?

heinbloed

Gary71 interferes in this technical discussion with the unqualified remark:

Yep, and what are you qualified in ?

I'm qualified in revealing lies, Gary71.



See this discussion here.

heinbloed

heinbloed wrote: »

Gary71 interferes in this technical discussion.

no, this discussion started out with a simple question which by rights should have been easily answered.

DGOBS

real eyes
realize
real lies

Iwannahurl

gary71 wrote: »

I know of installations where weather compensation was fitted only as a add on and they reduced their fuel costs so they do serve a purpose( and no I don't have a linky)

This discussion is getting rather reizbar(?). I don't know whether it's a recurring issue in this forum, but I think it's obscuring the central question.

If I were installing a condensing boiler and associated technology I would want to be certain that (a) my fuel consumption would be reduced, (b) that the improved technology gave me a higher level of control and hence 'comfort', and (c) that the upgrade would pay for itself in a reasonable time period.

In the examples you refer to above, how were the cost savings evaluated?




.

Iwannahurl

Iwannahurl wrote: »

In the examples you refer to above, how were the cost savings evaluated?

It manly from the reduced fuel costs, the main body of people I would be talking to is other gas engineers.

Further info on weather compensation:
http://www.greensystemsuk.com/Solar_Hot_Water_pdfs/Viessmann-Weather-Compensation-Controls.pdf

Iwannahurl

Iwannahurl wrote: »

If I were installing a condensing boiler and associated technology I would want to be certain that (a) my fuel consumption would be reduced,


(b) that the improved technology gave me a higher level of control and hence 'comfort', and (c) that the upgrade would pay for itself in a reasonable time period.

In the examples you refer to above, how were the cost savings evaluated?




.

I think points A and B go hand in hand and lead to point C.

Iwannahurl

Perhaps gas consumption, if metered, can be monitored more closely than, say, kerosene home heating oil?

It's certainly an alluring prospect, but I would need to see independent evaluation showing the potential benefits for your average homeowner. Such as myself, with (so far) a standard oil-fired boiler and 2-zone system.

The Viessmann blurb makes weather compensation look good, but the alleged benefits seem to rely a little too much on human behaviour for my liking:

The chances are that at this stage, the householder will be feeling the cold and will turn the thermostat up even further - wasting even more fuel.

If the outside temperature rises, the boiler will not respond until the rooms have become uncomfortably warm - so in addition to adjusting the thermostat, there’ll probably be the temptation to open some windows, releasing more heat and wasting more energy.

heinbloed

Gary71 is asked about the cost savings associated with the co-installation of condensing boilers with weather compensation units.

In the examples you refer to above, how were the cost savings evaluated?

and answers

It manly from the reduced fuel costs, the main body of people I would be talking to is other gas engineers.

Reduced fuel costs are not the same as cost savings, Gary71.
Anyhow:

How much was saved with what meassures, due to which influences ?

How much of the (maybe achieved) fuel costs were due to fuel replacing (other, cheaper fuels used instead of gas - the open fire, stove, the OAP bonus for coal and gas etc.) how much was due to changed consumer behaviour, how much was due to changed weather pattern, how much was due to the new boiler, how much was due to better in-house controls, how much was due to the weather/changed heating degree days/passive solar gain? How much was due to the weather compensation?

How many recorded cases are there to draw data from?

heinbloed

Iwannahurl asks :

Perhaps gas consumption, if metered, can be monitored more closely than, say, kerosene home heating oil?

Meters meassuring boiler consumption are available at the plumbing shop. There should be no technical problem meassuring the oil consumption of a boiler.