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condensing oil boiler upgrade

  • 03-12-2011 5:17pm
    #1
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 800 ✭✭✭


    Hi all, our old Grant boiler has packed up, am looking to fit a Grant vortex condensing boiler - the house is 30 years old, so theres very little by way of fancy CH controls in it - the boiler house is right next to the house.
    No TVR s or room temp switches fitted - Boiler heats the hot water cyl - no back boiler.
    What do you suggest fitting to the system as we fit the new boiler to make the old place a bit more comfortable / efficient?..insulation is adequate.
    I read something about compensation units to be fitted to the boiler?..good idea?..anything else?
    Oh, we've approx 10 rads in the gaff..all 'old style'..
    Thanks..


«1

Comments

  • Closed Accounts Posts: 902 ✭✭✭DoneDL


    Fit trvs to your radiators except where the room thermostat is fitted, zone upstairs, downstairs and the cylinder. Make sure all accessible pipework is lagged, get the system balanced and make sure that all heating controls provide boiler interlock ie stats turn the boiler off when satisfied. If the cylinder is old upgrade to an insulated cylinder.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 8,156 ✭✭✭Iwannahurl


    Be careful. Very careful.

    Why fork out for a condensing boiler if you're not set up to use it at optimum efficiency?

    A condensing boiler should do just that.

    The return water temperature needs to be low enough to make the condensing process work, otherwise the boiler will be operating at less than maximum efficiency.

    Here are some links where this issue is discussed.

    http://www.cibse.org/index.cfm?go=discuss.viewthread&item=1%7C913

    http://www.viessmann.com/com/en/press/press_releases/system_technology/Viessmann_Tieftemperatur-Heizkoerper.html

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Condensing_boiler


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 760 ✭✭✭245


    So is there an argument for upgrading radiators (maybe overspecifying them?) to achieve the necessary heatloss in the in the system? George (in the first link) seems to be suggesting that.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,632 ✭✭✭heinbloed


    Iwannahurl is correct.

    It makes no economical sense to install a condensing boiler when it isn't used in the condensing modus. Some of the previous threads here in the forum dealt with this issue already. And showed a shocking ignorance of some self-styled installers.

    It can be illegal to run a condensing boiler in a non-condensing modus, check the manuals of the particular boiler. If in doubt ask for an official statement, signed and sealed by the manufacturer.


    245 asks:
    So is there an argument for upgrading radiators (maybe overspecifying them?) to achieve the necessary heatloss in the in the system?

    In lay men's terms: yes.

    However the term overspecified is nor correct if the radiator is correctly specified. Taking into account the flow and return temperature a radiator must be specified, this is is the only correct method to specify a radiator.

    There are more methods to achieve low (condensing !) return temperatures, for example running parts or all of the return through a 'cooler' , a wall heating/ UFH supplied by the return pipe. Or similar.

    There are also flue gas condensors available, using the cold incoming air (needed for combustion) to cool the outgoing flue gases. This will cause the flue gases to condense . A condensing boiler is not necessary to run an oil boiler in a efficiency modus of over 90 %.

    A heating engineer will tell you more. Or try google for " flue gas condensers " or " flue gas heat exchangers " or a similar term to get you a first insight.

    Thanks for the links, Iwannahurl.


  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    heinbloed wrote: »
    .

    It can be illegal to run a condensing boiler in a non-condensing modus

    :pac::pac:
    You are silly, again Heinbload a condensing boiler will always produce condense up to the point the return temperature becomes to high, Heinbloed the only difference between a system designed to have a low system temperature and a system designed to have a high system temperatures is the volume of condense not that one doesn't produce condense and the other does.


    Also I would personally have a non condensing oil boiler as I think they are a simpler boiler but if a condensing boiler is fitted in a system that doesn't encourage condensing then you take off 3-4% of it's efficiency rating which still makes for a decent boiler compared to what it's replacing.


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  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    heinbloed wrote: »
    Iwannahurl is correct.

    It makes no economical sense to install a condensing boiler when it isn't used in the condensing modus.

    That i agree with (God help me:D)


  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    Op the more control you have over how your heat the better have a look at the link for further Info





    http://www.centralheating.co.uk/system/uploads/attachments/0000/0157/CE51_CHeSS_WEB_FINAL_JULY_081.pdf


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,632 ✭✭✭heinbloed


    Gary71 wrote:
    ...a condensing boiler will always produce condense ....


    What is "condense", gary71 ?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,632 ✭✭✭heinbloed


    Oldsmokey asks:
    What do you suggest fitting to the system as we fit the new boiler to make the old place a bit more comfortable / efficient?..insulation is adequate.

    Correct, insulate your place.
    Get a proper heating engineer, one who knows how to do an energy demand calculation according to EN 12831. This is legally demanded, most self styled installers are incompetent to do so and just install an overdimensioned boiler since they don't know any better.

    Engage a heating engineer who knows how to optimise a heating system.
    Balancing flow and return, installing TRVs instead of so called " zone controls " and " pumped zones " etc...

    And if you don't trust the job there are devices available who control the efficiency of a condensing boiler. Court proofe, water tight ( smiley).

    Here two of the condensate meassuring devices from Germany, check your heating engineer if he knows a similar device resp. if he could install one:

    http://www.ihks-fachjournal.de/files/FJ_PDF/2005_2006/Effizienzmessung_bei_Brennwert_Heizungsanlagen.pdf

    and

    http://www.brennwert.de/index.asp?art=brenncon

    There are similar devices for the 'English market'.


    These devices meassure the condensate. Liters or milliliters per day, per timing. Once you have this number and you know your fuel consumption (gas meter, oil meter) you know the efficiency of the boiler, of your heating system.
    If the number doesn't match what was ordered : money back.

    The cowboys fear such controlled jobs, so it's a good idea to ask for a guaranteed efficiency before the contract is awarded.
    If you fear incompetent installers: make a water tight contract.


  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    heinbloed wrote: »
    Gary71 wrote:




    What is "condense", gary71 ?

    If I could spell I'd have a proper job.

    (If my spelling is right then it the term used to describe condensate)


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,423 ✭✭✭Avns1s


    gary71 wrote: »
    If I could spell I'd have a proper job.

    Lol, I think it's spelt right but the term is possibly "condensate". http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Condensate

    Now, if I am correct, where do I apply for this proper job?? :D:D:D


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 8,156 ✭✭✭Iwannahurl


    gary71 wrote: »
    :pac::pac:
    Also I would personally have a non condensing oil boiler as I think they are a simpler boiler but if a condensing boiler is fitted in a system that doesn't encourage condensing then you take off 3-4% of it's efficiency rating which still makes for a decent boiler compared to what it's replacing.




    I'm not going to argue the technicalities.

    However, IMO the general issue is as described above.

    The question is, to what extent is a condensing boiler's efficiency compromised by a less than optimum installation?

    I don't know what the cost difference, if any, is between a condensing boiler and a good quality standard boiler, but it seems to me to be a waste of time and resources to install such a boiler and then not run it at optimum efficiency.

    A 3-4% reduction in efficiency doesn't sound like much, but personally I would need to be convinced that this would be the actual reduction and that if a condensing boiler costs more the extra expense would be recouped in a reasonable time period by any increased efficiency.

    The whole system ought to work in an integrated manner, IMO, and it's possible to imagine a situation in which effort and resources are wasted on installing technology that is theoretically energy efficient but which will never provide a decent payback because it is being deployed in less than optimal conditions.

    You can't make a silk purse out of a sow's ear!





    EDIT: Watch to the very end of this video for a brief comment on the general efficiency of standard versus condensing boilers...




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,632 ✭✭✭heinbloed


    Gary71 has never meassured the condensate, Iwannahurl.
    There is absolutly no experience from this side. Statements as above (3-4% loss of efficiency) are absolute rubbish, no scientific (meassured!) evidence exists.
    Gary71 obviously neither has seen an operating and condensing boiler. Otherwise there would be facts.
    But only words.

    I meassure the condensate from my boiler. And compare it with the fuel consumption. So I can put numbers on the the table, resp. can confirm official research, official teachings:

    Prof. Floss ( Fachhochschule Bieberach , a trade's school for heating engineers) has published this pdf document

    http://www.ihks-fachjournal.de/files/FJ_PDF/2005_2006/Effizienzmessung_bei_Brennwert_Heizungsanlagen.pdf

    It's all in German, for his students, so we concentrate on table 1, page 1:

    Here we see the drop of firing effiziency ( the blue curve ) going from 112 % in full condensing modus down to 98 % , the non-condensing modus.
    A loss of 14 points in effiziency (!) between full-condensing and non-condensing modus, described is natural gas (Methane).

    I might quote from the document, page 1, second and third column:

    " Solange die Abgastemperatur ueber der Tautemperatur ( abhaengig vom Brennstoff und vom Luftueberschuss bei 56C) liegt, faellt kein Kondenswasser an "

    Translated to:

    "As long as the flue gas temperature is above the dew point temperature ( depending on fuel type and exess of air at 56C) , no condensate water is created."

    This is official teaching. And my meassured experience.

    Statements as from Gary71 (and several other frequent posters here claiming to be boiler installers) denying meassurement results which everyone can measure at home on a DIY scale ( with a bucket) show a shocking incompetence.

    Germany's construction market is calling for competent builders. For competent heating engineers, new builds up by 30% this year, the home heating efficiency legislations sharpening on an anual scale. Switzerland and Austria made it upards as well, they had hardly a dip in the last few years.

    A lack of English spelling competence will be forgiven when aplying for a job there.

    The incompetence regarding the laws of physics the Irish academics employed in the construction sector are calling conservatism :

    http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/features/2011/1107/1224307163352.html[/I]

    50% of all Irish architects will have no chance to find a job. Nowhere, never. What's about the plumbers ?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 145 ✭✭Plombier


    I read something about compensation units to be fitted to the boiler?

    oldsmokey your own suggestion regarding weather compensation was the most knowledgeable post here, throughout most of the heating season it will serve to keep the return temperature below the condensing temperature of the flue gasses thereby maximising boiler efficiency. Talk to whomever suggested this.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,632 ✭✭✭heinbloed


    Weather compensation makes sense where the internal heat load is depending on the time, on the date.
    But not where the internal heat load is frequently changing because of changing usage of the structure, because of passive solar gain.

    A standard family home with south facing windows and insulated according to building regulations will have no benefit from a weather compensation.

    When the sun shines during the cold heating season and is warming the building via the windows the weather compensation unit does not sense this - it is shaded.

    When cold sleet and rain hits the facade and causes cooling of the structure the weather compensation unit does not sense this - it is shaded.

    If the night is clear or cloudy - the weather compensation unit does not sense this.

    When the open fire is running and the kitchen in full swing the weather compensation does not sense this - it is not there but outside, shaded....

    Ask a heating engineer about the exact calculations.

    Or buy a magnet for the fuel pipe in your car, it's even cheaper.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 145 ✭✭Plombier


    Don't be stupid a simple sensor inside the house will correct for any of these issues, read a little more on the subject and revert to me when you understand how it works.


  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    heinbloed wrote: »
    As long as the flue gas temperature is above the dew point temperature ( depending on fuel type and exess of air at 56C) , no condensate water is created."
    gary71 wrote: »
    :pac::pac:
    You are silly, again Heinbload a condensing boiler will always produce condense up to the point the return temperature becomes to high,.

    Beautiful, we agree then or do you believe all heating systems start above 56c


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 8,156 ✭✭✭Iwannahurl


    Plombier wrote: »
    oldsmokey your own suggestion regarding weather compensation was the most knowledgeable post here, throughout most of the heating season it will serve to keep the return temperature below the condensing temperature of the flue gasses thereby maximising boiler efficiency. Talk to whomever suggested this.



    The spelling and punctuation on this webpage could be better, but the content is good I think!
    When the combustion products are below their dew point of about 55ºC, the boiler is in condensing mode and it's efficiency increases almost exponentially. Weather compensation is of advantage in systems where high temperature heat emitters such as radiators are used as it allows the system temperature to decrease sufficiently for the boiler to condense.

    A boiler which heats radiators and is not fitted with weather compensation will rarely be in condensing mode and will have a much lower seasonal efficiency than a boiler which does. All condensing boilers manufactured by companies such as Immergas and MHG are fitted with weather compensation as standard.


  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    Weather compansation is a very good idea when fitted properly and the hot water flow is not effected by the lower flow temperatures.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,632 ✭✭✭heinbloed


    Be bright Plombier. And do not use "a sensor" for the house but one for every room. And an intelligent software capeable to learn, capeable to 'understand' interaction.
    Ad this to the price and the anual calibration as well.
    And get tennants to live according to the software's capeability.

    Since there are thousands of weather control units (hundreds of thousands?) installed all over Europe there must be scientific evidence to proofe their influence on fuel consumption.

    Sure you have some of this evidence to publish here..... but no sales brochures please, claiming ".. up to x % savings ".

    Www. links please, ISBN numbers etc... Black on white.


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 145 ✭✭Plombier


    CIBSE Guide H

    Building Control Systems

    ISBN 07506 504 78

    I am actually reading it (hard copy not the internet) at the moment.

    You should do the same and learn something.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,632 ✭✭✭heinbloed


    Iwannahurl posted a text from an advertising:
    When the combustion products are below their dew point of about 55ºC, the boiler is in condensing mode and it's efficiency increases almost exponentially. Weather compensation is of advantage in systems where high temperature heat emitters such as radiators are used as it allows the system temperature to decrease sufficiently for the boiler to condense.

    A boiler which heats radiators and is not fitted with weather compensation will rarely be in condensing mode and will have a much lower seasonal efficiency than a boiler which does. All condensing boilers manufactured by companies such as Immergas and MHG are fitted with weather compensation as standard.

    This refers to a heating system with high return temperatures which is not capeable to cause a condenstion in the boiler.
    Thanks again for the link, Iwannahurl.

    Only when the return temperature drops to a certain degree condensation can happen, that's what it says in the text. And what many posters here do not understand.

    The second part of the advertising however is rubbish:
    A boiler which heats radiators and is not fitted with weather compensation will rarely be in condensing mode ....

    My boiler has no weather compensation and is always in the condensing modus.
    Laws of physics tell us that it is not the weather but the return temperature which causes a standard household condensing boiler to condense. Unless we have outside temperatures above condesing temperature, for methane that is 56 degrees Celsius.....

    Meassurements please, hard evidence. No advertisings.

    The above text quoted is relevant for a CH system at the brink of condensing efficiency. Not for a CH system which is designed to run efficiently - no matter what the weather is like.
    And this is the heating engineer's job.

    A sticky plaster on a broken leg - that's what a weather compensation is.


  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    Going back to the original point about to condense or not to condense, I feel condensing gas boilers are fitted to every type of heating system because they have to be and not because it's practical or financial beneficial to do so.


    The main benefit of been forced to buy only condensing gas boilers is it's reduced the cost of boilers dramatically and improved the technology neither of which have occurred in the oil industry.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 145 ✭✭Plombier


    The above text quoted is relevant for a CH system at the brink of condensing efficiency. Not for a CH system which is designed to run efficiently - no matter what the weather is like.
    And this is the heating engineer's job.

    A sticky plaster on a broken leg - that's what a weather compensation is.

    The Chartered Institution of Building Services Engineers all disagree with you so maybe you should stop now.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,632 ✭✭✭heinbloed


    I'm not looking for political texts, Plombier.

    We are looking for scientific back-up for your claims.

    Hard comparing evidence, numbers collected from at least 1000 researched cases in our climate zone with our building standard. Over 3 years in consequence.

    No tea leaf reading.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 145 ✭✭Plombier


    Yes and your scientific back-up for your claims are not to be seen.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,632 ✭✭✭heinbloed


    Gary71 wrote:
    I feel condensing gas boilers are fitted to every type of heating system because they have to be and not because it's practical or financial beneficial to do so.

    Try to understand the written word, Gary71. Feelings won't help, it's plain text.
    No one is forced to install a condensing boiler when it makes no economical sense. That's Irish law, in writing.
    This should be known to a plumber......


  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    heinbloed wrote: »
    I'm not looking for political texts, Plombier.

    We are looking for scientific back-up for your claims.

    Hard comparing evidence, numbers collected from at least 1000 researched cases in our climate zone with our building standard. Over 3 years in consequence.

    No tea leaf reading.

    You need to get out more;)


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 145 ✭✭Plombier


    I'm not looking for political texts, Plombier.

    This is far from a political text if you knew anything you would realize its published by one of the most respected institutes in the world.

    But only you in all your wisdom could say they are wrong.


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,632 ✭✭✭heinbloed


    Plombier wrote:
    Yes and your scientific back-up for your claims are not to be seen.

    You do not seem to understand the basic of a discurse, a discussion. Which is in scientific terms thesis versus anti-thesis.

    Not Columbus or Gallileus had to prove the world is a flat disc surrounded by the universe. Nor Copernikus.

    The prove for this at their time was the pire. Not science.

    Bring your arguments and we listen.

    And if you can't : ask for back-up, there are plenty of competent installers here who certainly know why they sell these gimmiks. Who do not cheat the consumer, have evidence available. Simply ask, that's what the plumbing forum is about.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 145 ✭✭Plombier


    My argument is that I am referring to as I said one of the most respected institutes in the world(along with my personal 35 years experience), your argument is ????????


  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    heinbloed wrote: »



    Try to understand the written word, Gary71. Feelings won't help, it's plain text.
    .

    See you've no practical experience:) i'v cried many a late night when I havn't got a boiler going:o and I had plenty of plain text:)

    And as for being forced to fit condensing boilers, most of my experience is as a London based British gas engineer and in the Uk you are forced to fit condensing boilers.


  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    Plombier wrote: »
    My argument is that I am referring to as I said one of the most respected institutes in the world(along with my personal 35 years experience), your argument is ????????

    Ask him what he does for a living, he doesn't like that one:D


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 8,156 ✭✭✭Iwannahurl


    @Heinbloed: fair enough re advertising claims generally. I posted the quote and the link merely as a reference to the weather compensation issue.

    I think my general point stands, however. Add-on technology such as weather compensation is intended to optimise the efficiency of a condensing boiler. In general though I would question the cost-efficiency of grafting a condensing boiler and associated technology onto a less than optimal domestic setup. There is expense involved, and if the aim is to save fuel (for economic and environmental reasons) then it needs to be shown that there is a significant saving and recovery of costs in a reasonable time period. Insulation is analogous: you could spend vast sums on add-ons and upgrades but returns may rapidly diminish if your starting point is far less than optimal and you don't take great care to upgrade in an integrated way.


  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    I know of installations where weather compensation was fitted only as a add on and they reduced their fuel costs so they do serve a purpose( and no I don't have a linky)


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,632 ✭✭✭heinbloed


    Plombier wrote:
    My argument is that I am referring to as I said one of the most respected institutes in the world(along with my personal 35 years experience), your argument is ????????

    This is how the concil argued versus Galilieo. A joke of an argument.

    So sure you must have a hand book you can quote?Titel, publisher, page number, ISBN number please. Since you don't have a www. link, which would cut the discussion short.....

    All we need is science, facts and numbers, statistics. A plain question not answered - sure the reason for this is ignorance and not ill meaning.


  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    heinbloed wrote: »
    . A plain question not answered - sure the reason for this is ignorance and not ill meaning.

    OMG you are so funny :D


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,632 ✭✭✭heinbloed


    Gary71 - who has never meassured the condensation caused by a condensing boiler but 'knows' so much about their efficiency- tells us now about
    weather compensation
    :

    I know of installations where weather compensation was fitted only as a add on and they reduced their fuel costs so they do serve a purpose( and no I don't have a linky)

    And the meassurements? Consumptions with WC (ahem) compared to consumption without WC ? Nothing ? No comparrison?

    Maybe the system was installed by an incompetent installer, overdimensioned, not balanced, the manual not understood/explained, TRVs forgotten ....

    How efficient/wastive was the heating system working? What other meassurements had been available? Reducing the temperature spread, the flow and return temperature, advise of the users how to switch the unit on or off, how to adjust the boiler's temperature and pump function.....any TV set demands a bit of user's input.

    But you 'know' .....that's good, an ideal phrase for a job application (smiley).

    Numbers please, no rumours.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 145 ✭✭Plombier


    You are a stupid stupid man I have quoted to the texts that I refer to, I have a complete and full understanding of the subject and it is quite obvious that it is you who can't comprehend, please please read something somewhere on the subject before you reply again.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,632 ✭✭✭heinbloed


    Plombier wrote when asked for sources :
    You are a stupid stupid man I have quoted to the texts that I refer to, I have a complete and full understanding of the subject and it is quite obvious that it is you who can't comprehend, please please read something somewhere on the subject before you reply again.

    You do not seem to understand what scientific evidence is, Plombier.
    Not quotes are considered as evidence but sources to information based on repeatable experience.

    And sources you did not deliver. So again in plain words:

    1.)What statistical evidence is there that weather compensation units do save on fuel consumption in Irish homes ?

    2.) Are fuel savings profitable for the home owner- if achieved ?

    Now sources, statistical research, science.

    We can all read and do not hesitate to order the books you're quoting if you're quoting books. We will look at ALL sources to follow your argument. But deliver.

    Title, publisher, page number, ISBN . Or a www. link .


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  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    heinbloed wrote: »
    Gary71 - who has never meassured the condensation caused by a condensing boiler
    Why would i:confused:,

    I love your arrogance :) a book led opinion on the rights and wrongs of the heating world

    heinbloed wrote: »

    Maybe the system was installed by an incompetent installer, overdimensioned, not balanced, the manual not understood/explained, TRVs forgotten ....

    How efficient/wastive was the heating system working? What other meassurements had been available? Reducing the temperature spread, the flow and return temperature, advise of the users how to switch the unit on or off, how to adjust the

    Or maybe they just work;)
    heinbloed wrote: »
    But you 'know' .....that's good, an ideal phrase for a job application (smiley).
    No need, luckily for me I seem to have a lot of people convinced I'm good at what I do:eek:, long may it last:)


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,632 ✭✭✭heinbloed


    Plombier gave us a hint for which I searched via google. And this came up:

    http://www.cibse.org/content/documents/publications/Publications%20catalogue%20finalweb.pdf

    A 'document' calling itself a publications cataloque.

    On page 39 a chapter : " rules of thumb "

    We are looking for scientific evidence, Plombier, for statistics, repeatable and plausible research. Not rules of thumbs based on wishfull thinking, on advertising material.

    C'mon, that can't be your only argument in lieu for weather compensation units. A bit of professionalism please and we will be convinced.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 145 ✭✭Plombier


    Title, publisher, page number, ISBN . Or a www. link .

    I have already quoted the above and referenced it in my posts, you either chose to ignore it or you don't read other peoples posts.

    Can you show where you are getting your information that weather compensation does not achieve fuel savings.

    As everybody else disagrees with you it is incumbent upon you to produce this information to back up your claim.

    Can you do this facts and figures ????????????????


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 145 ✭✭Plombier


    I gave you the name and the ISBN, but you refer to an entirely different publication as I said you don't read other peoples posts.

    This is the the description of the book that I referenced.


    Guide H: Building control systems

    Good controls are vital for the safe, efficient operation of a modern
    building. A control system must not only keep the inside of a
    building comfortable for the occupants, it must keep the HVAC
    plant operating efficiently, and be capable of two-way
    communication with the personnel charged with its operation.
    The complexity of systems varies, but whatever the structure
    size good controls maximise energy conservation and reduce
    harmful emissions.

    Guide H covers all the key areas without relying too heavily on
    mathematical formulas, making it easy-to-read and accessible to all
    professions related to the design, construction and maintenance of
    a building.

    The Guide aims to provide readers with an understanding of
    modern controls systems so that they have the knowledge to chose
    the proper control system for their building, and ensure that it is
    installed, commissioned and maintained properly

    You wont find this on the internet if you are serious about whatever it is that you do in this industry you will have to spent approx. €100 to purchase this book and then you will have the facts and figures.

    As I said it is one of the most respected institutes in our industry and if you choose to ignore it it speaks volumes about you.!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,632 ✭✭✭heinbloed


    Plombier wrote:
    I have already quoted the above and referenced it in my posts, you either chose to ignore it or you don't read other peoples posts.

    Read your post again, Plombier. No scientific evidence for the benefit of weather compensation units have you delivered when asked. Only a British cataloque.

    The anti-thesis could be backed-up by an Argos cataloque, to play on a level field, Plombier. Many gimmiks in there saving much more energy than a weather compensation unit, for a fraction of investment. And all proven on a plumber's level of science.

    "plombier" is French , it means plumber. Is that correct?
    3.5 years aprenticeship, at least 2 more years on-site experience, maitre's school for 2-3 years...... there must be some books in the shelf of such an experienced man. 10 years of guarantee by French law on every plumbing job, sure there is a back up on fuel saving claims when installing a weather compensation unit ?



    Please again Plombier:

    Titles, publishers and page numbers, ISBN. Of statistical scientific research. That's all we are looking for.

    Evidence, no cataloques.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 145 ✭✭Plombier


    It's impossible to open your closed mind.http://www.cibse.org/
    visit this site open your closed mind and try to learn something.

    And yes I am a plumber time served with a lot of invaluable experience gained.

    I also spent a number of years in part education (Certificate in Building Services Engineering).

    What is your background are you qualified in any way in this industry.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,632 ✭✭✭heinbloed


    Plombier wrote:
    As I said it is one of the most respected institutes in our industry and if you choose to ignore it it speaks volumes about you.!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

    You know that these were the words of the inquisor when confronting Gallileus with the works of Aristoteles?


    You need education, Plombier, to be part of a progressive discussion.

    No cataloques were ever accepted as scientific evidence. Only for demagogues a catalogue of dogmas is a hold fast.

    For us men of labour only science counts, numbers. Not recommendations or rules. No catalogues.

    Again please :

    Scientific research showing the benefit of an investment into weather control units, for the Irish climate, for the Irish household.

    I'll sell you a magnet for your boiler or your water pipe with the arguments you've brought so far.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 145 ✭✭Plombier


    Our posts have crossed but as you can see I have already given you my background in education and experience.

    Can you give yours please????????????

    It sounds as if you are unqualified to continue posting on this forum most of what you say is nonsense.

    Because you can shout louder does not make you right.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 145 ✭✭Plombier


    heinbloed you in most of your post advise posters to get the advise or a qualified heating engineer, when I reference the CIBSE you call it an argos catalogue.

    Even you have to see the total hypocrisy here.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,632 ✭✭✭heinbloed


    This is a technical forum, Plombier. Not a personal exchange forum.

    Try to concentrate on technical questions, o.k.?
    On the one question which there is still open in this technical discussion:

    What is the scientifically proven benefit for an Irish household to spend money on a weather compensation unit for their heating system ?

    Read what you have answered so far.


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