LED lighting General discussion, read here before posting a question.

paddy147

Stoner wrote: »

most dimmers are rated for something like 250 Watt or 500Watts, but many only start to operate about 20Watts, so you need to check your dimmer for its range and make sure you have load (watts) on it. A dimmer might work in someones house because that have 8 number 4Watt LEDs installed (8*4W=32 Watt and sits in the 20W to 250W range of certain dimmers), it may not work for only 4 number 4W LEDS

So you will need to know how many lamps you want to dim too, it's a factor

I know that there is an Aroura dimmer operating 8 downlights in the dinning area.

The sparks installed some sort of special dimmer panel that operates 17 downlights in the living area........10 lights on 1 dimmer switch and the other 7 on a 2nd dimmer switch....

Its a 3 gang polished chrome face plate...2 dimmer switches and 1 switch for the stairs landing light.:)

johnwest288

Ok So Im gonna take the bull by the horns and get my down lighters converted to LEDS (Maybe)

So I appear to have
12V 50Watt fittings with an MR16 lamp holder x 16 of them
They are connected via 2 pins and then plugged into a large triangle transformer.
Before i do this I am wondering what is the dimming performance of the LED dimmable bulbs, I really like to be able to dim the lights right right down to a soft yellow warm in the evenings (allmost candle effect). Is this achievable with LEDS or is the dimming range of LEDS limited? The bulbs I have now have a range from Burn your eyes out to barely on, which i find excellent.

Also power wise. Am I right in saying the following on Power usage per hour LED V GU10?

Current set up:
16 x 50 Watt Current down lighter bulbs = 16 Bulbs x 50 Watt per Hour = 800 Watts per hour

LED Upgrade to 4w LEDS
16 x 4 Watt Led Downlighters = 16 LEDS x 4 Watt per hour = 64 Watts per hour

If my calculations are correct 64 Watts per hour as a percentage of 800 Watts per hour is 8%
So a saving of 92% per hour??? I cant be right can i???:eek:

WhiteNoSugar

4W LED isn't equivalent to 50W halogen. If you want to maintain the light levels with excellent dimming range you are going to need dedicated LED downlights, not retrofit lamps.

For power savings, divide by 7.

If you can take a small drop in light levels then there are some options for you in the retrofit arena but no retrofit lamp is as good as a dedicated downlight.

You'll probably have to get rid of the transformers, that's just asking for trouble with LEDs but there is one 8W MR16 LED on the market that I am aware of that works with some electronic transformers, but it really depends on the transformer.

If I was you I'd go for 10W downlights and a low load trailing edge dimmer. A good quality unit should be good for 5-10 years or more and save you 80% on your bills. Expect to pay €35+ each for a good one though.

hunglikeaflee

johnwest288 wrote: »

Ok So Im gonna take the bull by the horns and get my down lighters converted to LEDS (Maybe)

So I appear to have
12V 50Watt fittings with an MR16 lamp holder x 16 of them
They are connected via 2 pins and then plugged into a large triangle transformer.
Before i do this I am wondering what is the dimming performance of the LED dimmable bulbs, I really like to be able to dim the lights right right down to a soft yellow warm in the evenings (allmost candle effect). Is this achievable with LEDS or is the dimming range of LEDS limited? The bulbs I have now have a range from Burn your eyes out to barely on, which i find excellent.

Also power wise. Am I right in saying the following on Power usage per hour LED V GU10?

Current set up:
16 x 50 Watt Current down lighter bulbs = 16 Bulbs x 50 Watt per Hour = 800 Watts per hour

LED Upgrade to 4w LEDS
16 x 4 Watt Led Downlighters = 16 LEDS x 4 Watt per hour = 64 Watts per hour

If my calculations are correct 64 Watts per hour as a percentage of 800 Watts per hour is 8%
So a saving of 92% per hour??? I cant be right can i???:eek:

A couple of things about your savings.

Yes you can have about 90% savings but at full power you will only get about 40% of light. What I mean is, the 4W Philips lamp that people talk about will only give you a rough equivalent, to a 35W GU10 Halogen Lamp. This in turn is only roughly equivalent to 20W MR16 which is what you have. So in short at full power you will only have about 40% of the light you have at the moment.

As for the savings, as I said you can save about 90% but that is only if your light are on full power. If as you say you dim them right down, than you savings will be very low as by dimming you are saving already.

johnwest288

hunglikeaflee wrote: »

A couple of things about your savings.

Yes you can have about 90% savings but at full power you will only get about 40% of light. What I mean is, the 4W Philips lamp that people talk about will only give you a rough equivalent, to a 35W GU10 Halogen Lamp. This in turn is only roughly equivalent to 20W MR16 which is what you have. So in short at full power you will only have about 40% of the light you have at the moment.

As for the savings, as I said you can save about 90% but that is only if your light are on full power. If as you say you dim them right down, than you savings will be very low as by dimming you are saving already.

Cheers Hunglikeaflee, I actually didnt realise you could get lower wat MR16 Bulbs:o I only ever saw 50 Watt lamps in the stores and all the lights came fitted with 50watt lamps. I might just do a test and swap one set of my 50 Watt lamps with 35Watt ones, see how I get on over xmas. Do you Know what other Watts these come in? Just looking online it says they are available in 50 Watt and 35 Watt

The power ratings of MR16 lamps used in architectural lighting applications range from 10 to 100 watts.

bigjoe

johnwest288 wrote: »

Cheers Hunglikeaflee, I actually didnt realise you could get lower wat MR16 Bulbs:o I only ever saw 50 Watt lamps in the stores and all the lights came fitted with 50watt lamps. I might just do a test and swap one set of my 50 Watt lamps with 35Watt ones, see how I get on over xmas. Do you Know what other Watts these come in? Just looking online it says they are available in 50 Watt and 35 Watt

The power ratings of MR16 lamps used in architectural lighting applications range from 10 to 100 watts.

You can get 20W, 35W and 50W off the shelf from most Electrical Wholesalers. Another option is IRC lamps, these are still Halogen with a 30% saving. So a 20W is equivalent to a 35W and a 35W is equivalent to a 50W. With these you won’t notice any difference, your light levels and quality will remain the same, also you will have no dimming issues as you may get with LEDs.

Fingers Mcginty

replaced all 8 GU10 50 watters in my kitchen and have gone from 400W to less than 40W...I agree the light is not as strong but It's fine for our uses. Don't have to worry anymore about leaving the kitchen lights on. Love the warm white light those Phillips give off.
I am now looking to replace my 240V G9 bulbs ....Any recommendations folks?
F

WhiteNoSugar

We've used these but we sourced them directly from the German distributor.

Mod edit: Removed link advertising products.

ted1

Fingers Mcginty wrote: »

replaced all 8 GU10 50 watters in my kitchen and have gone from 400W to less than 40W...I agree the light is not as strong but It's fine for our uses. Don't have to worry anymore about leaving the kitchen lights on. Love the warm white light those Phillips give off.
I am now looking to replace my 240V G9 bulbs ....Any recommendations folks?
F

Which ones did you get and where?
I'm doing the same except I 'll be use lux meters and writing a paper for my masters on LEDs replacing Gu10s. I'm going to look the readings before and after and seem are they a suitable replacement and if the payback is sufficient for domestic users.

johnwest288

bigjoe wrote: »

You can get 20W, 35W and 50W off the shelf from most Electrical Wholesalers. Another option is IRC lamps, these are still Halogen with a 30% saving. So a 20W is equivalent to a 35W and a 35W is equivalent to a 50W. With these you won’t notice any difference, your light levels and quality will remain the same, also you will have no dimming issues as you may get with LEDs.

Cheers Joe I saw Osram Had a full end stand in woodies with these IRC bulbs but only had minimum 50 Watt down lighters. I ended up getting Philips 12 volt 20 Watt halogen downlighters. Gas thing was 1 x 20 watt Philips GU5.3 omn its own was 6 euro and underneath sitting on the bottom shelf you could get 3 of them in a bulk pack for 5.50 lol

paddy147

ted1 wrote: »

Which ones did you get and where?I'm doing the same except I 'll be use lux meters and writing a paper for my masters on LEDs replacing Gu10s. I'm going to look the readings before and after and seem are they a suitable replacement and if the payback is sufficient for domestic users.

Philips Master 4W LED with an angle/spread of 40 degrees

I got all mine from Eurosales for 8 euro 50 cents plus VAT.







Lovely light for me and my family and our needs.:)

ted1

paddy147 wrote: »

Philips Master 4W LED with an angle/spread of 40 degrees

I got all mine from Eurosales for 8 euro 50 cents plus VAT.







Lovely light for me and my family and our needs.:)

What's the heat of them like when compared to gu10s? Do they still recommend the back box?


missed the ex vat bit.

so they cost €10.45. thay may put a spanner in the works with regards the feasablity and payback.

8*10.45=€83.60
saving = 368Watts
AUP =17.5 Cents
saving per hour 0.36*0.175=6.3C
Total hours needed to break even = .63/83.6 = 1,375

365 days in year, house empty for 2 weeks= 365-14=351
Split this figure 50/50 summer /winter
summer usage = 2 hours
winter usage= 4 hours
2*175=350
4*176=704
Total hours per year =1054

earliest pay back period = 1375/1054 = 1.3 years

at a current usage of 400W there is a conciocous effort to turn off lights when not it use, when the usage is reduced to 32W this effort will be relaxed adn the on period will increase thus increasing payback period.
Valus of inital investement at payback period 86.30 (1+.045)^1.3 =91.38 this alo extends payback period


ah feck it anything under 2 years should be acceptable for domestic users. The seai should look after offering lighting grants when people also upgrade the insualtion etc.

game on.

hunglikeaflee

ted1 wrote: »

What's the heat of them like when compared to gu10s? Do they still recommend the back box?


missed the ex vat bit.

so they cost €10.45. thay may put a spanner in the works with regards the feasablity and payback.

8*10.45=€83.60
saving = 368Watts
AUP =17.5 Cents
saving per hour 0.36*0.175=6.3C
Total hours needed to break even = .63/83.6 = 1,375

365 days in year, house empty for 2 weeks= 365-14=351
Split this figure 50/50 summer /winter
summer usage = 2 hours
winter usage= 4 hours
2*175=350
4*176=704
Total hours per year =1054

earliest pay back period = 1375/1054 = 1.3 years

at a current usage of 400W there is a conciocous effort to turn off lights when not it use, when the usage is reduced to 32W this effort will be relaxed adn the on period will increase thus increasing payback period.
Valus of inital investement at payback period 86.30 (1+.045)^1.3 =91.38 this alo extends payback period


ah feck it anything under 2 years should be acceptable for domestic users. The seai should look after offering lighting grants when people also upgrade the insualtion etc.

game on.

That is all well and fine but you are not comparing like for like. The Philips 4W LED is not equivalent to a 50w halogen. You need a Philips 7W for that which will cost you about €22.00 (or more) VAT included.

Now you are heading for a 3 year payback for a “Direct Replacement” If you are going to make comparison it is only fair you make them for a direct replacement.

Also to clarify for people who have low voltage fittings. These figures are further out as they only refer to 220V GU10 lamps. L/V MR16 lamps give considerably more light output.

ted1

well I reckon that the 50W are over speced and the 35W would probably do the a good job.

Also going from a cool coour to a warm one will give a nicer feeling.

hunglikeaflee

I was only pointing it out in case you didn’t know because as you said your doing a paper for you masters. If that is the case you are better having the facts right.
If you would be happy with 35W lamps why not try the 28W IRC Halogen. These give the same light output as a 35W but at a fraction of the price of an LED.

paddy147

Ted1...those insulated downlight covers in my pictures are for the purposes of placing insulation around and over the downlight holes and maintaining a nice warm house.

Rockwool 100mm slab placed onto the plasterboard 1st and then covered over with Knauf Carbon Zero 170mm insulation.


Fantastic sound and heat insuation in the bedrooms and upstairs.

Bigcheeze

hunglikeaflee wrote: »

That is all well and fine but you are not comparing like for like. The Philips 4W LED is not equivalent to a 50w halogen. You need a Philips 7W for that which will cost you about €22.00 (or more) VAT included.

Now you are heading for a 3 year payback for a “Direct Replacement” If you are going to make comparison it is only fair you make them for a direct replacement.

Also to clarify for people who have low voltage fittings. These figures are further out as they only refer to 220V GU10 lamps. L/V MR16 lamps give considerably more light output.

You're not comparing like for like either. Your calculations omit the fact that halogens tend to blow every few months while the led bulbs last years. You could be looking at payback in less than a year.

I was changing halogens every week before switching over.

2011

Bigcheeze wrote: »

You're not comparing like for like either. Your calculations omit the fact that halogens tend to blow every few months while the led bulbs last years.

12V halogens last me about 10 years. Why ? Because I only use quality transformers (IBL).

Bigcheeze

2011 wrote: »

12V halogens last me about 10 years. Why ? Because I only use quality transformers (IBL).

That's interesting. I have low voltage halogen under cabinet lighting in my kitchen for about 4 months and half of the bulbs have already blown. the electrician said they would last much longer than the GU10 50w halogens but they're as bad. Could that be down to bad transformers ?

I wanted to get LED all over the house but the under counter fittings were a stupid price.

2011

Bigcheeze wrote: »

That's interesting. I have low voltage halogen under cabinet lighting in my kitchen for about 4 months and half of the bulbs have already blown. the electrician said they would last much longer than the GU10 50w halogens but they're as bad. Could that be down to bad transformers ?

Yes, transformer quality makes a huge difference.
My experience with IBL and Robus transformers has been very positive.

However my experience with halogen GU10s has been terrible in terms of lifespan. My theory is that this may be due to voltage fluctuations. I think that quality transformers filter this out.

I wanted to get LED all over the house but the under counter fittings were a stupid price.

I got a 5m roll of LED lighting suitable for undercounter lighting for €40 inc VAT from ND Electrical. A friend that is an electrical contractor told me I was "robbed":D

bigjoe

Bigcheeze wrote: »

You're not comparing like for like either. Your calculations omit the fact that halogens tend to blow every few months while the led bulbs last years. You could be looking at payback in less than a year.

I was changing halogens every week before switching over.

Every week?

You had some sort of a problem. There are a number of things it could have been.

I have IRC lamps in my house at least 7 years now and never changed any. Before that I had normal 50W Halogens for 8 years and never changed any.

hunglikeaflee

Bigcheeze wrote: »

You're not comparing like for like either. Your calculations omit the fact that halogens tend to blow every few months while the led bulbs last years. You could be looking at payback in less than a year.

I was changing halogens every week before switching over.

I beg to differ my calculations do allow for lamp changes as that would be the industry norm when doing these calculations. The standard is to allow for the average lamp life which for a good quality one is 2000 hours.

Having said that this is a lot lover than the average life of a lamp as it is taken at the time when 10% of the lamps tested have blown not 50%.

You don’t say if you were using 220V or 12V lamps but you had a problem of some sort if you were only getting a couple of months out of the lamps.

johnwest288

Bigcheeze wrote: »

You're not comparing like for like either. Your calculations omit the fact that halogens tend to blow every few months while the led bulbs last years. You could be looking at payback in less than a year.

I was changing halogens every week before switching over.

HMmm I have the same set of halogen downlighter bulbs since they were installed in 2005 :eek: SUmmit wrong there mate

Bigcheeze

hunglikeaflee wrote: »

I beg to differ my calculations do allow for lamp changes as that would be the industry norm when doing these calculations. The standard is to allow for the average lamp life which for a good quality one is 2000 hours.

Having said that this is a lot lover than the average life of a lamp as it is taken at the time when 10% of the lamps tested have blown not 50%.

You don’t say if you were using 220V or 12V lamps but you had a problem of some sort if you were only getting a couple of months out of the lamps.

They were the 220v gu10. Plenty of people report them blowing a lot on other threads. Some people suggesting it's due to vibration or lack of heat dispersion. Had the 12v ones in the bathroom from a previous installation and they seemed much more reliable.

ted1

So sent the wife up to eurosales today to get 4w Philips master, sales guy being a sales guy up saled her a dimmer. Fair enough, however the minimum rating is 40 watts per dial and its a 2 gang switch so max load is 16watts. Is this a sign of lazy un-informed sales guy and a reflection of how poor the knowledge is in the industry or am I missing something. ( at least they are dim able)

Fingers Mcginty

ted1 wrote: »

Which ones did you get and where?
I'm doing the same except I 'll be use lux meters and writing a paper for my masters on LEDs replacing Gu10s. I'm going to look the readings before and after and seem are they a suitable replacement and if the payback is sufficient for domestic users.

It's the 4w phillips lads I got...same as Paddy. I went for the warm white option. Very happy with them. Got 8 of them for 100 notes on adverts.ie
I'm also changing my G9 bulbs for the led equivalent for my landing light. Going from a 120 watt landing light to 6 watts ...Happy days

Jemmy

Hi all,

Quick question we are thinking of switching our 50W Halogen downlighter bulbs in GU10 fitment for the 3.6W LED equivalent (in “warm white”) that is supposed to give the same light/lumen output as the 50W Halogen – they’re working out at about €6.50 each & we’ve 17 fittings to fill. We’d only have half of them on about 8hrs average a day; just wondering if they’re worth the investment or whether we’ll be waiting a long time to see any real return on them on the bills? Has anyone any experience of using LED VS the normal halogen bulbs?

Cheers

ted1

I've taking some measurements and the philips 4W master are the same as 35W. I had 50w Halogens and replaced them with the 4W master. they are perfect, nice colour the 50s were 4000k which was to cool and its a much nicer room at 2700k.

what type bulb are you looking at, i'd steer clear of cluster LED lamps and also stay away from unkown cheap brands.

as for the payback period at 8 hours a day your lookign at about 6 months or less. see below.

17*50 =850 W * €.175 = 14.8C an hour when all 17are on
8 hours per day =€1.84 per day

17*3.6=61.2W *€.175= 1.07C an hour when all 17 are on
8 hours per day = €0.08568

saving per day based on 8 hours usage = €1
savign per month =€32

Jemmy

ted1 wrote: »

what type bulb are you looking at, i'd steer clear of cluster LED lamps and also stay away from unkown cheap brands.

as for the payback period at 8 hours a day your lookign at about 6 months or less. see below.

17*50 =850 W * €.175 = 14.8C an hour when all 17are on
8 hours per day =€1.84 per day

17*3.6=61.2W *€.175= 1.07C an hour when all 17 are on
8 hours per day = €0.08568

saving per day based on 8 hours usage = €1
savign per month =€32

Thanks for that Ted1, the bulbs we were looking at were:

3.6W bulbs I was going to go for: http://www.futureled.ie/gu10-bulbs/107-60-smd-gu10.html

4.5W alternatives: http://www.futureled.ie/gu10-bulbs/121-24-smd-gu10.html

hunglikeaflee

Jemmy wrote: »

Thanks for that Ted1, the bulbs we were looking at were:

3.6W bulbs I was going to go for: http://www.futureled.ie/gu10-bulbs/107-60-smd-gu10.html

4.5W alternatives: http://www.futureled.ie/gu10-bulbs/121-24-smd-gu10.html

I would stay well clear of these, they have no heat sync and that cause’s problems.

We did tests on about 25-30 of this type of lamp and after 1000 hours the light output drops by about 50%.

I have not tested these particular 3.6W lamps but I would very much doubt they come close to a 50W equivalent.