Misperception of Capitalism

sparksfly

Capitalism means different things in different nations.

In Ireland its crony capitalism.
In the USA its gangster capitalism.
In well governed countries like Finland and Sweeden its socially inclusive, well regulated but economically focused capitalism.

Benny_Cake

sparksfly wrote: »

Capitalism means different things in different nations.

In Ireland its crony capitalism.
In the USA its gangster capitalism.
In well governed countries like Finland and Sweeden its socially inclusive, well regulated but economically focused capitalism.

Indeed, capitalism can be used to mean different things, so can socialism. The best available examples of well-run societies seem to have a combination of the two (like Finland and Sweden).

hatrickpatrick

Shattered Dreamer wrote: »

Companies in legal terms are tried as physical entities. Hence why when corporation do something illegal all they do is pay a fine because you can't put a company in jail. The only time you'll see a director or board member go to jail is if the illegality of the act is proven to be that person or group of people acting independently of the company itself.

And that is pretty much everything that's wrong with capitalism. If the individuals were still held fully responsible for their actions, we would see far, far less foul play. People say that capitalism rewards risk taking, but BS systems like the above allow people to break the rules and NOT actually take any risk because they know they personally won't be held liable for what they've done.

smurgen

Scanlas The 2nd wrote: »

Capitalism seems to be a bad word in Ireland. People seem to think that it's about evil rich people taking advantage of poor people. I see it as something which allows more people to prosper and to do better for themselves. Redistribution of wealth makes people less likely to take the risk of setting up a business thus providing more employment as there are less rewards. IMO we should want lots of entrepeneurs making lots of money. It's an incentive for others to do the same which provides yet more jobs.

i think you're getting capitalism and cronyism mixed up. Most Irish business men would be alot less rich under real capitalism. Take Bill Cullen and the government scrappage scheme for example.
Someone like Michael O' Leary on the other hand would thrive even more so with real capitalism. As much as it annoys me to admit it (partially because i got stung for a £40 baggage charge last week) he's one of the best business men in modern times.

AhSureTisGrand

While legal corporate personhood is an area on which I do not claim to be very knowledgeable, it is worth bearing in mind that the basic idea of a corporation - the pooling of capital - is not a bad one. This and other functions such as limited liability could be provided without any state assistance

Worztron

Capitalism is riddled with flaws. It is unsustainable.

ToddyDoody

Pro: Capitalism is important as its a great motivational tool. It also fuels personal freedoms and consumer power. Con: It can be hard for anything to grow and develop under the harsh light of extreme capitalism. Endless competition can leave the more vulnerable marginalised and isolated.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

Worztron wrote: »

Capitalism is riddled with flaws. It is unsustainable.

Humanity is riddled with flaws - i.e. greed - not capitalism. It can work, it just needs a responsible socially aware bunch of people to live within it.

opinion guy

Dudess wrote: »

Without capitalism, people wouldn't be able to set up businesses, including ethical ones (like vegan restaurants) so it's not a bad thing. It's only bad in its extreme form - greed, selfishness, marginalisation of those who have little or nothing and don't have the means to improve their lot (e.g. disagreeing with any social welfare at all).

Similarly, communism is too extreme and is unworkable in practice without repression - but social equality and inclusivity are obviously the good sides to it.

Why are vegan restaurants ethical then ? What if the capitalist vegan restaurant owner is forcing his employees to work for a pittance under threat of reporting them to immigration ? What if he is funneling the companies profits into militant vegan organisations who go blowing up research labs etc ?

Dudess

Ah you know what I mean.

PrincessLola

Worztron wrote: »

Capitalism is riddled with flaws. It is unsustainable.

What alternatives would you prefer?

Chuck Stone

Vegan restaurants are ethical, imo, because keeping animals and using them for meat and dairy is incredibly resource hungry.

(From memory) For every kilo of meat produced there are 20 kilos of tillage crop used. If you think about the amount of meat people eat and multiply that by a factor of twenty for grown crops there'd be an incredible amount of food to go around.

Worztron

PrincessLola wrote: »

What alternatives would you prefer?

One that wont destroy this planet.
Capitalism is built on consumption. This throwaway society demands more crap to buy continuously so that the economy grows -- the downside (there are many more) is that planet Earth is being wrecked.

Jimoslimos

Worztron wrote: »

One that wont destroy this planet.
Capitalism is built on consumption. This throwaway society demands more crap to buy continuously so that the economy grows -- the downside (there are many more) is that planet Earth is being wrecked.

This is certainly true to an extent.

I'll paraphrase the 1st law of thermodynamics here, "Wealth cannot be created or destroyed - only transferred from one form to another" So infinite growth is impossible, that wealth is simply being siphoned from somewhere else.

To me pure capitalism and communism are two sides of the same coin, one has state/government-controlled industy - the other has industry controlled government/state. Either way power is concentrated in the hands of a few (usually unelected)

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

A wise man once said that the probelm with capitalism is that it's a case of man exploiting his fellow man. With communism, it's the other way around...

EDIT - J K Galbraith

Chuck Stone

"Capitalism and the market are presented as synonymous, but they are not. Capitalism is both the enemy of the market and democracy".

David Korten

Eric Cartman

Eric Cartman wrote: »

taking the company as a person ,

Here's one of the major problems..

Capitalism WILL collapse..(if it has not done so already..)

The only way out is communism 2.0..
Humanity needs to work together as a species...look at what resources we have, and what is needed where..
We need some joined up thinking..
This could be possible in a facebook era..
Collective conciousness FTW..

PrincessLola

Worztron wrote: »

One that wont destroy this planet.
Capitalism is built on consumption. This throwaway society demands more crap to buy continuously so that the economy grows -- the downside (there are many more) is that planet Earth is being wrecked.

No offense but that's not an alternative, you have to cut this wishy-washy hyperbole.

I don't see the problem with buisnesses, they create employment and satisfy consumer wants.

opinion guy

Chuck Stone wrote: »

Vegan restaurants are ethical, imo, because keeping animals and using them for meat and dairy is incredibly resource hungry.

(From memory) For every kilo of meat produced there are 20 kilos of tillage crop used. If you think about the amount of meat people eat and multiply that by a factor of twenty for grown crops there'd be an incredible amount of food to go around.

Way to miss my point. Vegan restaurants are as ethical as the people who run them. In other words - vegan restaurant does not automatically equal ethical restaurant.

I once got a chunk of metal in my vegan restaurant meal. When I complained worker just looked at me gormlessly. I complained to the manager who immediately chastised the worker and then told me they were going to fire them. They didn't offer me a refund until I pressed the issue. Was the worker to blame - probably not he was following example. Did they realyl show remorse - no. Did the guy deserve to be fired ? no. Did they do anything to find out how metal got into the food ? No.

Was any of this ethical ? No.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

PrincessLola wrote: »

No offense but that's not an alternative, you have to cut this wishy-washy hyperbole.

I don't see the problem with buisnesses, they create employment and satisfy consumer wants.

In fairness, no planet means no capitalism!

If you cannot see the problems in allowing businesses to abandon ethics, either natraual or humanistic, where have you been for the last four years?! I said earlier that whatever system we choose has to be socially responsible and that includes environmentally so. If consumer want (I notice you didn't write consumer need) is the end goal then we're not going to last very long no matter what system we choose.

TheBegotten

In order to get money, you need to take it off someone else, or print it. Since the latter is illegal, it's best to find someway of making people give it to you. The secret to doing this is to take a small amount off a lot of people. Capitalism is simply feudalism dressed up as a democracy. :mad:

Though I think this thread is one big troll.

Worztron

PrincessLola wrote: »

No offense but that's not an alternative, you have to cut this wishy-washy hyperbole.

I don't see the problem with buisnesses, they create employment and satisfy consumer wants.

"wishy-washy hyperbole"? In my previous post I stated the facts!

The alternative is to stop destroying the planet and manage our finite resources efficiently. Both things completely clash with capitalism.
To sum it up -- share all resources with everyone. We need joined up thinking.

Benny_Cake

PrincessLola wrote: »

Worztron wrote: »

One
that wont destroy this planet.
Capitalism is built on consumption. This throwaway society demands more crap to buy continuously so that the economy grows -- the downside (there are many more) is that planet Earth is being wrecked.

No offense but that's not an alternative, you have to cut this wishy-washy hyperbole.

I don't see the problem with buisnesses, they create employment and satisfy consumer wants.

There are proposals for an economy that doesn't rely on constant GDP growth - and this is not necessarily anti-business:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2011/nov/30/end-of-growth?mobile-redirect=false

Currently, we seem to be in a state of crisis if the economy isn't growing fast enough -this isn't sustainable in the long run.

smegmar

hatrickpatrick wrote: »

This pretty much nails it. Companies are NOT people, and they should not be treated as such or given the same status as such. Human beings are human beings.

I won't believe companies are people until Texas executes one of them.