Misperception of Capitalism

Scanlas The 2nd

Capitalism seems to be a bad word in Ireland. People seem to think that it's about evil rich people taking advantage of poor people. I see it as something which allows more people to prosper and to do better for themselves. Redistribution of wealth makes people less likely to take the risk of setting up a business thus providing more employment as there are less rewards. IMO we should want lots of entrepeneurs making lots of money. It's an incentive for others to do the same which provides yet more jobs.

FatherLen

must crush capitalism

ScumLord

Scanlas The 2nd wrote: »

Capitalism seems to be a bad word in Ireland. People seem to think that it's about evil rich people taking advantage of poor people. I see it as something which allows more people to prosper and to do better for themselves. Redistribution of wealth makes people less likely to take the risk of setting up a business thus providing more employment as there are less rewards. IMO we should want lots of entrepeneurs making lots of money. It's an incentive for others to do the same which provides yet more jobs.

I don't think it is, capitalism is a very crude and basic system. It's survival of the fittest and doesn't suit human social groups in the slightest.

People need to work as a group and we need to look out for on another, people in general are completely useless on their own and only work well in groups.

In capitalism you have to be prepared to walk over the perceived weak to benefit the individual which means we could lose out on the likes of Steven Hawking.

It also directly leads to people getting into power and doing everything they can to maintain that power at the expense of everything else.

RachaelVO

FatherLen wrote: »

must crush capitalism

Nah, it'll just crush you first!

Scanlas The 2nd

ScumLord wrote: »

I don't think it is, capitalism is a very crude and basic system. It's survival of the fittest and doesn't suit human social groups in the slightest.

People need to work as a group and we need to look out for on another, people in general are completely useless on their own and only work well in groups.

In capitalism you have to be prepared to walk over the perceived weak to benefit the individual which means we could lose out on the likes of Steven Hawking.

It also directly leads to people getting into power and doing everything they can to maintain that power at the expense of everything else.

There are still laws, so what if someone wants to stay in power, if they break the law send them to jail.

hooradiation

In before this becomes a libertarian circlejerk.

Dudess

Without capitalism, people wouldn't be able to set up businesses, including ethical ones (like vegan restaurants) so it's not a bad thing. It's only bad in its extreme form - greed, selfishness, marginalisation of those who have little or nothing and don't have the means to improve their lot (e.g. disagreeing with any social welfare at all).

Similarly, communism is too extreme and is unworkable in practice without repression - but social equality and inclusivity are obviously the good sides to it.

MUSEIST

Scanlas The 2nd wrote: »

Capitalism seems to be a bad word in Ireland. People seem to think that it's about evil rich people taking advantage of poor people. I see it as something which allows more people to prosper and to do better for themselves. Redistribution of wealth makes people less likely to take the risk of setting up a business thus providing more employment as there are less rewards. IMO we should want lots of entrepeneurs making lots of money. It's an incentive for others to do the same which provides yet more jobs.

I think basically its about the values of a society, does it put people and equality above money. Capitalism values people on the amount of money they can spend where as socialist societies like most scandinavian models treat everybody as equal up to a point (education, healthcare is free because of higher taxes), but in a capitalist society if you are lucky enough to have money then society says you can avail of better healthcare and education than others. Capitalism has greed at its core as it alows individuals to become wealthy beyond reason. Neither is correct and both have there faults but its about what a society or nation values.

Personally I favour the equality system as I think its a societies duty to provide equal education and healthcare to people and its up to them what they do with it.

Balmed Out

ScumLord wrote: »

It also directly leads to people getting into power and doing everything they can to maintain that power at the expense of everything else.

Thats communism.


I think your completely wrong. Capitalism doesnt mean a lack of social heart. Many of the most successful capitalists have given fortunes to charitable causes.

Hawkins is from a capitalist country.

Most of your points can be more fairly levelled at leading communist figures.

wes

Whatever Capatalism is suppose to be doesn't really matter, sure communism isn't to bad in theroy either, but when those things get put into practice, they seem to end up being rather nasty.

I am not saying that we should completely get rid of capatalism, but we should be aware of its excesses, and take steps to mitigate them.

MUSEIST

Balmed Out wrote: »

Thats communism.


I think your completely wrong. Capitalism doesnt mean a lack of social heart. Many of the most successful capitalists have given fortunes to charitable causes.

Hawkins is from a capitalist country.

Most of your points can be more fairly levelled at leading communist figures.

How is that communism? You may be confusing so called communism nations which are actually dictatorships where dictators use communism to secure all the nations wealth and prevent other people becoming too powerfull. Its a means of retaining power for a dictator but it is not actual communism.

Ray Palmer

Capatilism is about making money nothing else. Regardless of morals. Laws have many ways to be circumvented so are no protection when it comes to capatilism.

Drug company has a perfectly good prodcut that works but the patent is about to run out so they bring out a new drug that does exactley the same job but different enough to have a new patent. So the push the new drug and stop making the old drug.

As a market leader the control distribution so people now pay more for a new drug when the old drugs is now not avilable.

That is capatilism nothing illegal. Look up the light bulb cartel

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phoebus_cartel

And look up planned obsolecence

Entrepeneurs do not need to believe in capatilism. THe US is seen as the best example of capatlism which has had a growing divide between the rich and the poor. It is working the way people think it is, it simply doesn't work.

Benny_Cake

Capitalism and socialism are both words which inevitably mean diffeerent things to different people.The reason that capitalism evokes negative connotations at the moment is the result of "financial capitalism" for want of a better phrase - whereby huge banks and investment houses have caused huge damage to the wider economy in most Western countries.Personally I prefer the middle road,a well-regulated free economy with good public education and health and an adequate safety net.I'd also favour more self-help groups organising which could supplement state activity locally (increasing a sense of community and reducing state dependence) but that's my anarchist side coming out.

dsmythy

For the amount of people saying Capitalism is all about money over people there's a hell of a lot capitalist money going to people in need. While everyone was mooching over Steve Jobs it was forgotten he was a successful capitalist.

On a random note http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/danielhannan/100119741/memo-to-the-occupy-protesters-here-are-ten-things-we-evil-capitalists-really-think/

starbelgrade

Capitalism is the worst form of economic systems.

Apart from all the other ones.

ScumLord

dsmythy wrote: »

For the amount of people saying Capitalism is all about money over people there's a hell of a lot capitalist money going to people in need. While everyone was mooching over Steve Jobs it was forgotten he was a successful capitalist.

I don't know that these guys where fundamentally capitalists even though they where very good at it. We're all essentially capitalists because we operate in a capitalist system. These where tech heads obsessed with new technology, people wanted what they had so they where an instant success.

The problem with people today is extremism. People pick a side like communist or capitalist (both of which are flawed systems that should be set aside) and refuse to compromise and find the actual best solution.

sbsquarepants

Captialism is fine.
It's greed that has us fúcked. Greed, incompetence and an idiotic policy of fleecing ordinary taxpayers to pay billionaires peoples debts.

ScumLord

sbsquarepants wrote: »

Captialism is fine.
It's greed that has us fúcked. Greed, incompetence and an idiotic policy of fleecing ordinary taxpayers to pay billionaires peoples debts.

Capitalism encourages greed at the expense of all others.

foxyboxer

Scanlas The 2nd wrote: »

Capitalism seems to be a bad word in Ireland. People seem to think that it's about evil rich people taking advantage of poor people. I see it as something which allows more people to prosper and to do better for themselves. Redistribution of wealth makes people less likely to take the risk of setting up a business thus providing more employment as there are less rewards. IMO we should want lots of entrepeneurs making lots of money. It's an incentive for others to do the same which provides yet more jobs.

Don't hate rich people. If you do, you may never be one. I admire anyone who is self made.

It's quid pro quo, business man needs labour, 'poor people' need work and money.

Ray Palmer

dsmythy wrote: »

For the amount of people saying Capitalism is all about money over people there's a hell of a lot capitalist money going to people in need. While everyone was mooching over Steve Jobs it was forgotten he was a successful capitalist.

Steve jobs is one of the worst capatilists. I don't think anybody ever forgot he was a capatlist. The workers killing themselves and solution is to replace them with robots. Such a great social heart Apple has.

Money that goes to charity for a tax break is just PR, capatlist organisation often casuing the problems in places in the first place. Colonilism has just taken a new form.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

Scanlas The 2nd wrote: »

There are still laws, so what if someone wants to stay in power, if they break the law send them to jail.

What has that ever happened in Ireland?

foxyboxer

sbsquarepants wrote: »

Captialism is fine.
It's greed that has us fúcked. Greed, incompetence and an idiotic policy of fleecing ordinary taxpayers to pay billionaires peoples debts.

+1.

Some people failed to develop the concept of 'enough'.
Ask yourself. How much is enough for you? Everyone will be different.

I love the concept developed by Buckminster Fuller when he defined what rich means to him.

It goes as such. If you have 5k savings and your expenses are 500 per month. Then you are "10 months rich". If you had 50k, you are 100 months rich.

For me, enough is, when the interest on your assets returns enough money to cover your expenses for a given year. You are financially free then.

Everyone will have different needs and wants, Charvet shirts versus Primark ones etc etc. The lower your expenses, the closer to having enough you will be.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

ScumLord wrote: »

It also directly leads to people getting into power and doing everything they can to maintain that power at the expense of everything else.

Balmed Out wrote: »

Thats communism.


I think your completely wrong. Capitalism doesnt mean a lack of social heart. Many of the most successful capitalists have given fortunes to charitable causes.

Hawkins is from a capitalist country.

Most of your points can be more fairly levelled at leading communist figures.

Scumlord's discription could fit pretty much any system. Communism and capitalism have the same problem: they work in theory, but they don't in practice because there are too many people in power who put their own interests before that of the society in general.

AhSureTisGrand

Capitalism doesn't force you to become Ebeneezer Scrooge. It doesn't really force you to do anything. Socialism, meanwhile, assumes that you are Ebeneezer Scrooge and forces you to act otherwise

livinsane

It shouldn't have to be Capitalism or "an alternative". I hate this business of labelling everything. A successful and intelligent society should be ideologically flexible. It should know the limitations of all systems.

smegmar

What I really hate is people with absolutely no idea how communism actually works. It has advantages and disadvantages over capitalism.

What we have today is not capitalism. Once trading of stocks is allowed and usury is untaxed it becomes something else, truly evil. When banks can make huge profits without contributing anything to society it is a problem.

All the original thought of capitalism, as stated by John Locke, (Right to property, right to produce of labour etc)
was based on the principal of common everyday goods used to support life and needs. It completely crumbles once money is involved and thought of as a commodity in it's own right.

Honestly I'd like to live in a world with both true capitalism and true communism, but not the vicious hatred of the 80's. When I could freely move between the two and decide which actually gave a better standard of living.

Scanlas The 2nd

Ray Palmer wrote: »

Capatilism is about making money nothing else. Regardless of morals. Laws have many ways to be circumvented so are no protection when it comes to capatilism.

Drug company has a perfectly good prodcut that works but the patent is about to run out so they bring out a new drug that does exactley the same job but different enough to have a new patent. So the push the new drug and stop making the old drug.

As a market leader the control distribution so people now pay more for a new drug when the old drugs is now not avilable.

That is capatilism nothing illegal. Look up the light bulb cartel

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phoebus_cartel

And look up planned obsolecence

Entrepeneurs do not need to believe in capatilism. THe US is seen as the best example of capatlism which has had a growing divide between the rich and the poor. It is working the way people think it is, it simply doesn't work.

In order to make money value needs to be created. Money allows people to look after friends and family, nothing wrong with money.

SoWatchaWant

Corporations have far too much power and far too much freedom in my opinion.

Benny_Cake

Scanlas The 2nd wrote: »

In order to make money value needs to be created. Money allows people to look after friends and family, nothing wrong with money.

There is nothing wrong with money in and of itself-and for most people it's use is as you describe.However,I would question whether modern financial capitalism has created much that is of value,particularly given the carnage that has been caused to people and businesses that do provide goods and services which add real value to society.

Killer Pigeon

People often mix up free market capitalism with corporatism and monetarism. It's unfortunate.

smegmar

Addendum

Soviet Union collapsed because it came from almost 5 back to back wars*,
including the largest loss of life in a single year period since the black plague. During both World Wars the Soviet countries lost hundreds of millions of men. In the years of 1941 to 1945 they lost over 60,000,000 men. Not just the elderly and sick but intelligent, strong, youthful, inventive young men that would have been the future of the country.

To compare America lost a few ships at pearl harbour and nuked two civilian cities. Total deaths during 1939-1945 caused by the war as a percentage of total population
Soviet union 13.88%
America 0.13%

They had a clear advantage beyond the war and along with the plunder of Nazi scientists and technologies, Soviet Union did well under such unfair conditions.

(World War 1, Revolutionary war, World War 2, Cold war+nuclear arms race, Afganistan+Central Asian uprising) and the inevitable famine that follows all wars.

Currently Communist Cuba is struggling, but considering the 60+ year embargo by America, that stopped trade that would be worth billions over that period, it's still impressive to see they have better healthcare then America.

China is a tearing it up and within the next 10 years will be the dominant superpower in the world, all done under communism. Yes there have been calls of strict government control, but standard of living for the vast majority has sky-rocketed, proof that communism can work in reality.

Eric Cartman

the main oponents of capitalism or the people that drag it through the mud are the people whove never tryed to play the game right.

theres very few wealthy self made socialists

Benny_Cake

smegmar wrote: »

China is a tearing it up and within the next 10 years will be the dominant superpower in the world, all done under communism. Yes there have been calls of strict government control, but standard of living for the vast majority has sky-rocketed, proof that communism can work in reality.

Hardly communism,more like a form of capitalism with a lot of state involvement and one-party rule.Labour rights in China are abysmal.

Red Hand

Money is a sign of poverty.

/Culture.

AhSureTisGrand

smegmar wrote: »

China is a tearing it up and within the next 10 years will be the dominant superpower in the world, all done under communism.

China is more of a fascist, corporatist state than a communist one

yuppies

Владимир Путин будет править землей в коммунистический рай.

XORAND

Socialism is a farce. It does not work. Period. People confuse crony Capatalism and Capitalism. These are seperate. Government should be small and not interfere economically or socially with the lives or ordinary citizens.

Welfare should be abolished at the state level and managed as a charity at the local level. A classically liberal/libertarian country such as Switzerland has individual cantons that govern their own turf. They seem to be doing pretty ok.

Socialism. You actually keep people in poverty, reliant on the Government. You cannot rely on anybody but yourself. Capitalism affords you the ability to control your life from the prison of Socialism and high taxation. Anybody with an anyway decent IQ will realise BIG government is bad, while a small government with laize-faire ideals is best.

I will say it again. Socialism is a prison to keep people in control under the big brother watch of BIG Government:mad:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g-o0kD9f6wo

XORAND

Just to add. Noam Chomsky is an idiot:mad:

Liberalism is a mental illness. It will probably surface in the next version of the DSM.

Crucifix

XORAND wrote: »

Just to add. Noam Chomsky is an idiot:mad:

Liberalism is a mental illness. It will probably surface in the next version of the DSM.

I too think we should Combat Liberalism

Balmed Out

MUSEIST wrote: »

How is that communism? You may be confusing so called communism nations which are actually dictatorships where dictators use communism to secure all the nations wealth and prevent other people becoming too powerfull. Its a means of retaining power for a dictator but it is not actual communism.

Thats communism.

Read my post. What I wrote "thats communism" in response to was "It also directly leads to people getting into power and doing everything they can to maintain that power at the expense of everything else. "
Most regimes that have begun with aspirations of communism have ended up being dictatorships.

Balmed Out

smegmar wrote: »

Addendum

China is a tearing it up and within the next 10 years will be the dominant superpower in the world, all done under communism. Yes there have been calls of strict government control, but standard of living for the vast majority has sky-rocketed, proof that communism can work in reality.

Do you believe China to be communist?

smegmar

Balmed Out wrote: »

Do you believe China to be communist?

China is as much Marx's Communism an American is Locke's Capitalism.

Granted it's not ideal, but hopefully this thread will still be fresh when the Euro collapses, and then we can have a better reflection on the pro's and con's of Capitalism and Communism.

XORAND

Crucifix wrote: »

I too think we should Combat Liberalism

It's ironic that the frankensteinian big brother liberalism we have today is derived from classical liberal principles I speak of above. It's a perversion and slap in the face of the ideals for which countries like Switzerland and the US were actually founded upon, to empower the person, not the Government:(

This is really entirely my own opinion, but classical Liberalism and perhaps Libertarianism make the most sense. The central position mostly. Extremes in either direction are never good. Anarchy is simply a transition phase, not a political ideology. Extreme Fascism is criminal, while extreme Socialism is a prison to strip people of their dignity and abiliy to fend for themselves.

Not to mention, every person should possess a rifle and perhaps a handgun and ammo to protect their family from intruders and maybe even in extreme socialist/fascist countries, the very government which lies to their people about "looking out for them" and such.

If you can't empower and individual to create their own wealth, you have not helped, you have enslaved that individual. Leave the individual to decide their life, that is the best policy.

ch750536

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wV1lZMTCqf8

XORAND

^ That is a good of example of crony capitalism, not the principles I speak of above that video. Crony capitalism has little to do with classical liberalism or Libertarianism. These political ideologies actually condem it.

The BIG Government and collusion/deals between corporations is mostly the result of BIG government. The US resembles a socialist prison more than a liberal paradise.

Socialism is legalised theft:)

fishy fishy

smegmar wrote: »

Addendum

Soviet Union collapsed because it came from almost 5 back to back wars*,
including the largest loss of life in a single year period since the black plague. During both World Wars the Soviet countries lost hundreds of millions of men. In the years of 1941 to 1945 they lost over 60,000,000 men. Not just the elderly and sick but intelligent, strong, youthful, inventive young men that would have been the future of the country.

To compare America lost a few ships at pearl harbour and nuked two civilian cities. Total deaths during 1939-1945 caused by the war as a percentage of total population
Soviet union 13.88%
America 0.13%

They had a clear advantage beyond the war and along with the plunder of Nazi scientists and technologies, Soviet Union did well under such unfair conditions.

(World War 1, Revolutionary war, World War 2, Cold war+nuclear arms race, Afganistan+Central Asian uprising) and the inevitable famine that follows all wars.

Currently Communist Cuba is struggling, but considering the 60+ year embargo by America, that stopped trade that would be worth billions over that period, it's still impressive to see they have better healthcare then America.

China is a tearing it up and within the next 10 years will be the dominant superpower in the world, all done under communism. Yes there have been calls of strict government control, but standard of living for the vast majority has sky-rocketed, proof that communism can work in reality.

socialist cuba that is....
50 year old embargo that is.....

stevenmu

An American who was living in Ireland went out for a walk one evening. He was walking down a quiet country lane when he walked past a huge big house, nearly a mansion. It had lovely big landscaped gardens, and a brand new BMW and Jaguar parked out on the marble slabbed driveway. Looking in the huge bay window he could see the man of the house sitting watching a giant flat screen TV and his gorgeous young wife sitting beside him, and he thought to himself "that lucky b@stard, I'm going to be him one of these days", and went off on his way.

A few minutes later and Irish guy came walking down the same road. He looked in and saw the same house, saw the same gardens and the BMW and Jaguar parked outside. He looked in the window and saw the flat screen TV and the wife, and thought to himself "that lucky b@stard, I'm going to get him one of these days".



Capitalism is dirty word here because we're a nation of begrudgers. Our national mentality is that we should be happy with what we have, and anybody who tries to be a success is rising above their station. And god help anybody who manages to make some money, they've obviously done it by trampling on the decent honest hard working folk, and every penny should be taken off them.

smegmar

Balmed Out wrote: »

Thats communism.

Read my post. What I wrote "thats communism" in response to was "It also directly leads to people getting into power and doing everything they can to maintain that power at the expense of everything else. "
Most regimes that have begun with aspirations of communism have ended up being dictatorships.

Communism is a system of Economic policy, whereas Dictatorship is a system of administrative control, they are entirely separate. You can have Democratic communism, Dictatorial Capitalism, anarchic syndicism, Georgist monarchy.

In the same way you can have red cars and blue bicycles or yellow cars and green bicycles.

Balmed Out

smegmar wrote: »

China is as much Marx's Communism an American is Locke's Capitalism.

Granted it's not ideal, but hopefully this thread will still be fresh when the Euro collapses, and then we can have a better reflection on the pro's and con's of Capitalism and Communism.

In China you can own a private company, have private bank accounts, you have individual property rights, their are multi national companies, a few independant stock exchanges, very wealthy people, very poor people, an emerging middle class etc etc.

Not communist im afraid.

mconigol

ScumLord wrote: »

I don't think it is, capitalism is a very crude and basic system. It's survival of the fittest and doesn't suit human social groups in the slightest.

People need to work as a group and we need to look out for on another, people in general are completely useless on their own and only work well in groups.

In capitalism you have to be prepared to walk over the perceived weak to benefit the individual which means we could lose out on the likes of Steven Hawking.

It also directly leads to people getting into power and doing everything they can to maintain that power at the expense of everything else.

Eh Hawkins is from a capitalist country. Capitalism isn't a cut throat system where you're encouraged to walk over the perceived weak. Ridiculous.

ScumLord wrote: »

I don't know that these guys where fundamentally capitalists even though they where very good at it. We're all essentially capitalists because we operate in a capitalist system. These where tech heads obsessed with new technology, people wanted what they had so they where an instant success.

The problem with people today is extremism. People pick a side like communist or capitalist (both of which are flawed systems that should be set aside) and refuse to compromise and find the actual best solution.

lol...Steve Jobs wasn't a capitalist?!

ScumLord wrote: »

Capitalism encourages greed at the expense of all others.

No it doesn't.

smegmar wrote: »

Addendum

Soviet Union collapsed because it came from almost 5 back to back wars*,
including the largest loss of life in a single year period since the black plague. During both World Wars the Soviet countries lost hundreds of millions of men. In the years of 1941 to 1945 they lost over 60,000,000 men. Not just the elderly and sick but intelligent, strong, youthful, inventive young men that would have been the future of the country.

To compare America lost a few ships at pearl harbour and nuked two civilian cities. Total deaths during 1939-1945 caused by the war as a percentage of total population
Soviet union 13.88%
America 0.13%

They had a clear advantage beyond the war and along with the plunder of Nazi scientists and technologies, Soviet Union did well under such unfair conditions.

(World War 1, Revolutionary war, World War 2, Cold war+nuclear arms race, Afganistan+Central Asian uprising) and the inevitable famine that follows all wars.

Currently Communist Cuba is struggling, but considering the 60+ year embargo by America, that stopped trade that would be worth billions over that period, it's still impressive to see they have better healthcare then America.

China is a tearing it up and within the next 10 years will be the dominant superpower in the world, all done under communism. Yes there have been calls of strict government control, but standard of living for the vast majority has sky-rocketed, proof that communism can work in reality.

So communism can't work because Capitalism is better? That's the message I'm getting there.

Balmed Out

smegmar wrote: »

Communism is a system of Economic policy, whereas Dictatorship is a system of administrative control, they are entirely separate. You can have Democratic communism, Dictatorial Capitalism, anarchic syndicism, Georgist monarchy.

In the same way you can have red cars and blue bicycles or yellow cars and green bicycles.

You dont get it. It was a response to an earlier quote saying capitalism leads to bla bla bla. I pointed out that its more prevalent a problem for countries starting out with communist aspirations to become dictatorships.