Misperception of Capitalism

Eric Cartman

the main oponents of capitalism or the people that drag it through the mud are the people whove never tryed to play the game right.

theres very few wealthy self made socialists

Benny_Cake

smegmar wrote: »

China is a tearing it up and within the next 10 years will be the dominant superpower in the world, all done under communism. Yes there have been calls of strict government control, but standard of living for the vast majority has sky-rocketed, proof that communism can work in reality.

Hardly communism,more like a form of capitalism with a lot of state involvement and one-party rule.Labour rights in China are abysmal.

Red Hand

Money is a sign of poverty.

/Culture.

AhSureTisGrand

smegmar wrote: »

China is a tearing it up and within the next 10 years will be the dominant superpower in the world, all done under communism.

China is more of a fascist, corporatist state than a communist one

yuppies

Владимир Путин будет править землей в коммунистический рай.

XORAND

Socialism is a farce. It does not work. Period. People confuse crony Capatalism and Capitalism. These are seperate. Government should be small and not interfere economically or socially with the lives or ordinary citizens.

Welfare should be abolished at the state level and managed as a charity at the local level. A classically liberal/libertarian country such as Switzerland has individual cantons that govern their own turf. They seem to be doing pretty ok.

Socialism. You actually keep people in poverty, reliant on the Government. You cannot rely on anybody but yourself. Capitalism affords you the ability to control your life from the prison of Socialism and high taxation. Anybody with an anyway decent IQ will realise BIG government is bad, while a small government with laize-faire ideals is best.

I will say it again. Socialism is a prison to keep people in control under the big brother watch of BIG Government:mad:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g-o0kD9f6wo

XORAND

Just to add. Noam Chomsky is an idiot:mad:

Liberalism is a mental illness. It will probably surface in the next version of the DSM.

Crucifix

XORAND wrote: »

Just to add. Noam Chomsky is an idiot:mad:

Liberalism is a mental illness. It will probably surface in the next version of the DSM.

I too think we should Combat Liberalism

Balmed Out

MUSEIST wrote: »

How is that communism? You may be confusing so called communism nations which are actually dictatorships where dictators use communism to secure all the nations wealth and prevent other people becoming too powerfull. Its a means of retaining power for a dictator but it is not actual communism.

Thats communism.

Read my post. What I wrote "thats communism" in response to was "It also directly leads to people getting into power and doing everything they can to maintain that power at the expense of everything else. "
Most regimes that have begun with aspirations of communism have ended up being dictatorships.

Balmed Out

smegmar wrote: »

Addendum

China is a tearing it up and within the next 10 years will be the dominant superpower in the world, all done under communism. Yes there have been calls of strict government control, but standard of living for the vast majority has sky-rocketed, proof that communism can work in reality.

Do you believe China to be communist?

smegmar

Balmed Out wrote: »

Do you believe China to be communist?

China is as much Marx's Communism an American is Locke's Capitalism.

Granted it's not ideal, but hopefully this thread will still be fresh when the Euro collapses, and then we can have a better reflection on the pro's and con's of Capitalism and Communism.

XORAND

Crucifix wrote: »

I too think we should Combat Liberalism

It's ironic that the frankensteinian big brother liberalism we have today is derived from classical liberal principles I speak of above. It's a perversion and slap in the face of the ideals for which countries like Switzerland and the US were actually founded upon, to empower the person, not the Government:(

This is really entirely my own opinion, but classical Liberalism and perhaps Libertarianism make the most sense. The central position mostly. Extremes in either direction are never good. Anarchy is simply a transition phase, not a political ideology. Extreme Fascism is criminal, while extreme Socialism is a prison to strip people of their dignity and abiliy to fend for themselves.

Not to mention, every person should possess a rifle and perhaps a handgun and ammo to protect their family from intruders and maybe even in extreme socialist/fascist countries, the very government which lies to their people about "looking out for them" and such.

If you can't empower and individual to create their own wealth, you have not helped, you have enslaved that individual. Leave the individual to decide their life, that is the best policy.

ch750536

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wV1lZMTCqf8

XORAND

^ That is a good of example of crony capitalism, not the principles I speak of above that video. Crony capitalism has little to do with classical liberalism or Libertarianism. These political ideologies actually condem it.

The BIG Government and collusion/deals between corporations is mostly the result of BIG government. The US resembles a socialist prison more than a liberal paradise.

Socialism is legalised theft:)

fishy fishy

smegmar wrote: »

Addendum

Soviet Union collapsed because it came from almost 5 back to back wars*,
including the largest loss of life in a single year period since the black plague. During both World Wars the Soviet countries lost hundreds of millions of men. In the years of 1941 to 1945 they lost over 60,000,000 men. Not just the elderly and sick but intelligent, strong, youthful, inventive young men that would have been the future of the country.

To compare America lost a few ships at pearl harbour and nuked two civilian cities. Total deaths during 1939-1945 caused by the war as a percentage of total population
Soviet union 13.88%
America 0.13%

They had a clear advantage beyond the war and along with the plunder of Nazi scientists and technologies, Soviet Union did well under such unfair conditions.

(World War 1, Revolutionary war, World War 2, Cold war+nuclear arms race, Afganistan+Central Asian uprising) and the inevitable famine that follows all wars.

Currently Communist Cuba is struggling, but considering the 60+ year embargo by America, that stopped trade that would be worth billions over that period, it's still impressive to see they have better healthcare then America.

China is a tearing it up and within the next 10 years will be the dominant superpower in the world, all done under communism. Yes there have been calls of strict government control, but standard of living for the vast majority has sky-rocketed, proof that communism can work in reality.

socialist cuba that is....
50 year old embargo that is.....

stevenmu

An American who was living in Ireland went out for a walk one evening. He was walking down a quiet country lane when he walked past a huge big house, nearly a mansion. It had lovely big landscaped gardens, and a brand new BMW and Jaguar parked out on the marble slabbed driveway. Looking in the huge bay window he could see the man of the house sitting watching a giant flat screen TV and his gorgeous young wife sitting beside him, and he thought to himself "that lucky b@stard, I'm going to be him one of these days", and went off on his way.

A few minutes later and Irish guy came walking down the same road. He looked in and saw the same house, saw the same gardens and the BMW and Jaguar parked outside. He looked in the window and saw the flat screen TV and the wife, and thought to himself "that lucky b@stard, I'm going to get him one of these days".



Capitalism is dirty word here because we're a nation of begrudgers. Our national mentality is that we should be happy with what we have, and anybody who tries to be a success is rising above their station. And god help anybody who manages to make some money, they've obviously done it by trampling on the decent honest hard working folk, and every penny should be taken off them.

smegmar

Balmed Out wrote: »

Thats communism.

Read my post. What I wrote "thats communism" in response to was "It also directly leads to people getting into power and doing everything they can to maintain that power at the expense of everything else. "
Most regimes that have begun with aspirations of communism have ended up being dictatorships.

Communism is a system of Economic policy, whereas Dictatorship is a system of administrative control, they are entirely separate. You can have Democratic communism, Dictatorial Capitalism, anarchic syndicism, Georgist monarchy.

In the same way you can have red cars and blue bicycles or yellow cars and green bicycles.

Balmed Out

smegmar wrote: »

China is as much Marx's Communism an American is Locke's Capitalism.

Granted it's not ideal, but hopefully this thread will still be fresh when the Euro collapses, and then we can have a better reflection on the pro's and con's of Capitalism and Communism.

In China you can own a private company, have private bank accounts, you have individual property rights, their are multi national companies, a few independant stock exchanges, very wealthy people, very poor people, an emerging middle class etc etc.

Not communist im afraid.

mconigol

ScumLord wrote: »

I don't think it is, capitalism is a very crude and basic system. It's survival of the fittest and doesn't suit human social groups in the slightest.

People need to work as a group and we need to look out for on another, people in general are completely useless on their own and only work well in groups.

In capitalism you have to be prepared to walk over the perceived weak to benefit the individual which means we could lose out on the likes of Steven Hawking.

It also directly leads to people getting into power and doing everything they can to maintain that power at the expense of everything else.

Eh Hawkins is from a capitalist country. Capitalism isn't a cut throat system where you're encouraged to walk over the perceived weak. Ridiculous.

ScumLord wrote: »

I don't know that these guys where fundamentally capitalists even though they where very good at it. We're all essentially capitalists because we operate in a capitalist system. These where tech heads obsessed with new technology, people wanted what they had so they where an instant success.

The problem with people today is extremism. People pick a side like communist or capitalist (both of which are flawed systems that should be set aside) and refuse to compromise and find the actual best solution.

lol...Steve Jobs wasn't a capitalist?!

ScumLord wrote: »

Capitalism encourages greed at the expense of all others.

No it doesn't.

smegmar wrote: »

Addendum

Soviet Union collapsed because it came from almost 5 back to back wars*,
including the largest loss of life in a single year period since the black plague. During both World Wars the Soviet countries lost hundreds of millions of men. In the years of 1941 to 1945 they lost over 60,000,000 men. Not just the elderly and sick but intelligent, strong, youthful, inventive young men that would have been the future of the country.

To compare America lost a few ships at pearl harbour and nuked two civilian cities. Total deaths during 1939-1945 caused by the war as a percentage of total population
Soviet union 13.88%
America 0.13%

They had a clear advantage beyond the war and along with the plunder of Nazi scientists and technologies, Soviet Union did well under such unfair conditions.

(World War 1, Revolutionary war, World War 2, Cold war+nuclear arms race, Afganistan+Central Asian uprising) and the inevitable famine that follows all wars.

Currently Communist Cuba is struggling, but considering the 60+ year embargo by America, that stopped trade that would be worth billions over that period, it's still impressive to see they have better healthcare then America.

China is a tearing it up and within the next 10 years will be the dominant superpower in the world, all done under communism. Yes there have been calls of strict government control, but standard of living for the vast majority has sky-rocketed, proof that communism can work in reality.

So communism can't work because Capitalism is better? That's the message I'm getting there.

Balmed Out

smegmar wrote: »

Communism is a system of Economic policy, whereas Dictatorship is a system of administrative control, they are entirely separate. You can have Democratic communism, Dictatorial Capitalism, anarchic syndicism, Georgist monarchy.

In the same way you can have red cars and blue bicycles or yellow cars and green bicycles.

You dont get it. It was a response to an earlier quote saying capitalism leads to bla bla bla. I pointed out that its more prevalent a problem for countries starting out with communist aspirations to become dictatorships.

Ray Palmer

Scanlas The 2nd wrote: »

In order to make money value needs to be created. Money allows people to look after friends and family, nothing wrong with money.

You don't need to create value items have a value. Making something have a value it doesn't have is extortion. The light bulb being a prime example. A new drug that does the same as the old one to make extra profit is not adding value.
The lack of control the consumer has in a distorted market is capatilism. The privatisation of medicine in the US is capatilism. Not a good thing IMHO

foxyboxer

stevenmu wrote: »

Capitalism is dirty word here because we're a nation of begrudgers. Our national mentality is that we should be happy with what we have, and anybody who tries to be a success is rising above their station. And god help anybody who manages to make some money, they've obviously done it by trampling on the decent honest hard working folk, and every penny should be taken off them.

One of the reasons why I think people bergudge Bono and U2 is that they don't pay their fair share of taxes blah blah.

What do they owe us? Sweet FA.

Put yourself in the same situation and you'd more than likely do the same.
I recall reading the Roger Moore biography a few years back and the taxation system was so penal that it forced him, begrudgingly, to move from the UK.

Balmed Out

foxyboxer wrote: »

One of the reasons why I think people bergudge Bono and U2 is that they don't pay their fair share of taxes blah blah.

What do they owe us? Sweet FA.

Put yourself in the same situation and you'd more than likely do the same.
I recall reading the Roger Moore biography a few years back and the taxation system was so penal that it forced him, begrudgingly, to move from the UK.

I wouldnt begrude Bono or U2 of anything, I just think their entertainers and I find it a bit annoying when they preach about this and that while sitting on gigantic bank accounts at the same time. If bono was to give up a large proportion of his wealth to some cause Id feel he was a lot more credible.

stevenmu

foxyboxer wrote: »

One of the reasons why I think people bergudge Bono and U2 is that they don't pay their fair share of taxes blah blah.

What do they owe us? Sweet FA.

Put yourself in the same situation and you'd more than likely do the same.
I recall reading the Roger Moore biography a few years back and the taxation system was so penal that it forced him, begrudgingly, to move from the UK.

Well that's a fair type of begruding IMO, if they live here and want to vote, criticise the government, use our services (roads, schools, healthcare) etc then they should pay their fair share of taxes, instead of basing their corporation in another jurisdiction to avoid taxes.

Tbh, I don't think I would do the same, I think that if I decided to not pay my taxes here I'd at least have the decency to go and live somewhere else.

Grumpypants

Scanlas The 2nd wrote: »

Capitalism seems to be a bad word in Ireland. People seem to think that it's about evil rich people taking advantage of poor people. I see it as something which allows more people to prosper and to do better for themselves. Redistribution of wealth makes people less likely to take the risk of setting up a business thus providing more employment as there are less rewards. IMO we should want lots of entrepeneurs making lots of money. It's an incentive for others to do the same which provides yet more jobs.

Capitalism has successfully lowered the standard of living for the vast majority of people in the Western world since the 1970's when it peaked.

When inflation is considered you now get paid less, pay more tax and everything you buy is more expensive.

Ray Palmer

stevenmu wrote: »

An American who was living in Ireland went out for a walk one evening. He was walking down a quiet country lane when he walked past a huge big house, nearly a mansion. It had lovely big landscaped gardens, and a brand new BMW and Jaguar parked out on the marble slabbed driveway. Looking in the huge bay window he could see the man of the house sitting watching a giant flat screen TV and his gorgeous young wife sitting beside him, and he thought to himself "that lucky b@stard, I'm going to be him one of these days", and went off on his way.

A few minutes later and Irish guy came walking down the same road. He looked in and saw the same house, saw the same gardens and the BMW and Jaguar parked outside. He looked in the window and saw the flat screen TV and the wife, and thought to himself "that lucky b@stard, I'm going to get him one of these days".



Capitalism is dirty word here because we're a nation of begrudgers. Our national mentality is that we should be happy with what we have, and anybody who tries to be a success is rising above their station. And god help anybody who manages to make some money, they've obviously done it by trampling on the decent honest hard working folk, and every penny should be taken off them.

Rehash of something said a million times except it doesn't fit in this case. Capatilism is not a catch phrase for success. Capatlism is actually the raising of something regardless of who suffers. Fire all your staff and move the company to a cheaper labour force and still charge the same for the product.

I still don't take the begrudgery story for the entire nation or for the US nation being a nation of go getters. They have one of the highest ratio of people in prison to those not. Their country has a large financial power but actually don't control the world's financial reserves. Their national debt has steadily increased. Their form of capatilism put the world in financial trouble. That is what capatilism has brought. It is a flawed system based on gambling and a ponzie scheme.

CucaFace

smegmar wrote: »

Addendum

Soviet Union collapsed because it came from almost 5 back to back wars*,
including the largest loss of life in a single year period since the black plague. During both World Wars the Soviet countries lost hundreds of millions of men. In the years of 1941 to 1945 they lost over 60,000,000 men. Not just the elderly and sick but intelligent, strong, youthful, inventive young men that would have been the future of the country.

To compare America lost a few ships at pearl harbour and nuked two civilian cities. Total deaths during 1939-1945 caused by the war as a percentage of total population
Soviet union 13.88%
America 0.13%

They had a clear advantage beyond the war and along with the plunder of Nazi scientists and technologies, Soviet Union did well under such unfair conditions.

(World War 1, Revolutionary war, World War 2, Cold war+nuclear arms race, Afganistan+Central Asian uprising) and the inevitable famine that follows all wars.

Currently Communist Cuba is struggling, but considering the 60+ year embargo by America, that stopped trade that would be worth billions over that period, it's still impressive to see they have better healthcare then America.

China is a tearing it up and within the next 10 years will be the dominant superpower in the world, all done under communism. Yes there have been calls of strict government control, but standard of living for the vast majority has sky-rocketed, proof that communism can work in reality.

Explain why Venezuela is such a mess so?

Here is a country with all the natural resources they could want which is basically like getting free money and yet their economy and especially their society is breaking down big time.

Caracas is now the murder capital of the world and many of the highly educated have left the country and don't want to return there until Chavez and Socialism has gone.

Just look around Dublin to see how many of them are living here now, plus ask them how hard it is to get their own money out of that country.

hatrickpatrick

Scanlas The 2nd wrote: »

Capitalism seems to be a bad word in Ireland. People seem to think that it's about evil rich people taking advantage of poor people. I see it as something which allows more people to prosper and to do better for themselves. Redistribution of wealth makes people less likely to take the risk of setting up a business thus providing more employment as there are less rewards. IMO we should want lots of entrepeneurs making lots of money. It's an incentive for others to do the same which provides yet more jobs.

A fundamental aspect of capitalism is that if you take risks, you pay for them yourself if they go wrong.
In Ireland, ordinary people who had nothing to do with your choices have to bail out out, presuming you're a personal friend of people in government.

Capitalism itself isn't the problem. The problem is, very simple, corporate money in politics. You can't possible have a one person, one vote, everyone has an equal voice society if it's so easy to buy politicians.

Ban all corporate donations and vigorously pursue anyone found to be involved in the slightest bit of corruption, and capitalism would work a whole lot better than it does.

blackbettysgs2

Capitalism is a nice word for the way generations of rich people created to enslave those who spend all their lives trying to survive instead of learning. A world where there is a bunch of people who found a way to exploit others for cheap money and is rich and prospers and calls this "good business" sucks imho.

OneArt

Dudess wrote: »

Without capitalism, people wouldn't be able to set up businesses, including ethical ones (like vegan restaurants)

There is nothing ethical about murdering innocent plants.