Non Turf Wickets

Plates

djimi wrote: »

The ECB can say what they want; while mats provide a good alternative for amatuer league cricket there is no mat I have ever played on that comes even close to emulating a top quality turf wicket

Yeah - sure what would the ECB know about cricket - bunch of jokers they are.

The majority of turf wickets in Leinster don't emulate top quality turf wickets.

djimi

Plates wrote: »

So which surfaces in Senior cricket do you think would prepare players for the next level? Bear in mind that the next level generally means playing on wickets with a significant amount of pace and bounce.

How many clubs have a turf practice wicket? I would guess none - which means that the majority of development (since players generally spend more time batting / bowling in nets than in the middle) is done on non-turf surface.

I play division 10 so I cant give you specifics about which tracks at division 1 are up to first class spec, but if our senior level pitches arent up to spec then that should be a pretty high priority issue that needs sorting. Getting senior players to play on mats is not a good substitute for playing on top grade turf wickets. Mats do not give a true reflection on how a proper pitch behaves; while they provide even bounce at a decent height it often feels artifical, and a fast bowler bowling on a mat is not going to get a true indication of how their bowling will be on a turf pitch. As far as spinners are concerned they may as well not even bother on a mat! Mats dont crack and wear as turf wickets do, so for batsmen it can become a little too even and comfortable at times; again fine for lower level cricket but not a reflection on how a real pitch will play at a higher level.

There is a fair difference between practicing on a mat and playing on one. Ideally I would like to see all senior clubs have turf practice facilities as well, but things must be taken one step at a time!

As I said above, I am not against senior cricket being played on artifical surfaces when needs must, but to me it must be very much a case of when there is no other option rather than in any way the norm.

Cots

djimi wrote: »

As far as spinners are concerned they may as well not even bother on a mat! Mats dont crack and wear as turf wickets do, so for batsmen it can become a little too even and comfortable at times; again fine for lower level cricket but not a reflection on how a real pitch will play at a higher level.
.

Hang on a minute, in what leinster senior 50 over game is the pitch going to crack up so drastically that spinners dominate as much as they would on a day 5 in a test, that's not a spinners job in the shorter form, it's to build pressure, take the pace of and slow scoring rates, which they can do on mats and grass wickets equally well, which makes it equally difficult for a batsman to score, the ball also does turn off most mats as much as it does on good grass wickets so it's not as if it's any way sa much of a disadvantage for spinners as you are making out

djimi

Cots wrote: »

Hang on a minute, in what leinster senior 50 over game is the pitch going to crack up so drastically that spinners dominate as much as they would on a day 5 in a test, that's not a spinners job in the shorter form, it's to build pressure, take the pace of and slow scoring rates, which they can do on mats and grass wickets equally well, which makes it equally difficult for a batsman to score, the ball also does turn off most mats as much as it does on good grass wickets so it's not as if it's any way sa much of a disadvantage for spinners as you are making out

Tbf I dont know what mats youre playing on but Ive never played on one that takes turn anywhere near as much as a real wicket. On a mat a spinner has very little unpredicability; they can create pressure by taking the pace off, but the turn is usually a lot more predicable and easier to face.

And Im not referring to a pitch cracking up during a match but just in general they wear and crack over time after a few games and they have unique character to make batting that bit trickier. The same cannot be said of mats.

Cots

djimi wrote: »

Tbf I dont know what mats youre playing on but Ive never played on one that takes turn anywhere near as much as a real wicket. On a mat a spinner has very little unpredicability; they can create pressure by taking the pace off, but the turn is usually a lot more predicable and easier to face.

And Im not referring to a pitch cracking up during a match but just in general they wear and crack over time after a few games and they have unique character to make batting that bit trickier. The same cannot be said of mats.

The mats I'm referring to include, Terenure, Rush, Mullingar, Sandyford but not as much as the others, Adamstown and even the big senior club's mats, The Hills and Merrion to name two, all of which were places where spinners catch the eye, and didnt get hit and were able to take wickets too.

A pitch cannot be re-used more than once in a div 1 or 2 season so your point of cracks over a number of games is still off the mark

djimi

Fair enough if you feel those mats produce as much spin as turf wickets. My experience of playing on mats (from both a bowlers and batsmans point of view) is that they offer very little help to spinners in terms of how much turn they can get, but I suppose well have to agree to disagree.

As for the wear on turf wickets, even after a couple of games you will get wearing which add an element of unpredictability to a pitch. Im not saying its going to dramatically change the way a pitch plays but compared to a mat it will definately evolve over the course of a couple of games, whereas a mat will stay pretty much exactly the same all season.

Cots

djimi wrote: »

As for the wear on turf wickets, even after a couple of games you will get wearing which add an element of unpredictability to a pitch. Im not saying its going to dramatically change the way a pitch plays but compared to a mat it will definately evolve over the course of a couple of games, whereas a mat will stay pretty much exactly the same all season.

So what your saying is that the pitches will have deteriorated enough for the spinners to cause havoc at the very back end of the 2nd game a pitch is used for? In which case the seamers would be bowling or if a spinner manages to bowl in extremely unusual circumstances then he will be able to get some help from the wicket

djimi

Cots wrote: »

So what your saying is that the pitches will have deteriorated enough for the spinners to cause havoc at the very back end of the 2nd game a pitch is used for? In which case the seamers would be bowling or if a spinner manages to bowl in extremely unusual circumstances then he will be able to get some help from the wicket

Where did I talk about spinners causing havoc? All im saying is that pitches deteriorate over a the course of a couple of games, mats dont. Its a factor when comparing cricket played on mats to cricket played on turf.

Cots

djimi wrote: »

Where did I talk about spinners causing havoc? All im saying is that pitches deteriorate over a the course of a couple of games, mats dont. Its a factor when comparing cricket played on mats to cricket played on turf.

So essentially you are saying that the wickets deteriorating would not lead to spinners causing havoc? isnt this what you wanted when you said batsmen can play spinners too easily? Wouldnt this be the only reason people want the wickets to deteriorate? Sure if a wicket deteriorates and the ball doesnt turn dramatically what use is it to anyone, it just means it's a bad turf wicket then

djimi

Cots wrote: »

So essentially you are saying that the wickets deteriorating would not lead to spinners causing havoc? isnt this what you wanted when you said batsmen can play spinners too easily? Wouldnt this be the only reason people want the wickets to deteriorate? Sure if a wicket deteriorates and the ball doesnt turn dramatically what use is it to anyone, it just means it's a bad turf wicket then

Ill be honest with you mate I think youre reading far too much into what Im saying... I made one comment about spinners; that I dont feel they get much help from mats compared to proper wickets, and an unrelated comment about how a proper wicket wears over time leading to an element of unpredictability which is something you dont get from a mat.

The point of the discussion is whether or not senior cricket (ie divisions 1 and 2) in Ireland should be played on mats or not; Im against it as I feel artificial wickets are not good preperation for players taking the step up to international/first class cricket where artificial wickets are never used. My comments were related to this; I dont feel that spinners who learn their trade on artificial wickets are going to develop in the same way as those who develop on proper wickets, and likewise I dont feel that batsmen who spend too much time playing on artifical wickets with their predictable nature and lack of wear and degradation will be properly prepared when it comes to playing on a proper wicket that, by its nature, will be less predictable and changable as a couple of games are played on it (a mat will be the same in the 200th over as it will in the 1st; the same cannot be said for a turf wicket).

Plates

djimi wrote: »

I dont feel that spinners who learn their trade on artificial wickets are going to develop in the same way as those who develop on proper wickets

Care to enlighten us on which wickets in Leinster senior cricket you deem to be "proper wickets"? All the turf ones - regardless of quality?

As far as spinners developing on non turf wickets go - take a look at the links below for just a couple of examples:

http://www.espncricinfo.com/netherlands/content/player/208657.html

http://www.cricketeurope4.net/CSTATZ/irelandall/ire127.htm

Gordon Gecko

Plates wrote: »

Care to enlighten us on which wickets in Leinster senior cricket you deem to be "proper wickets"? All the turf ones - regardless of quality?

As far as spinners developing on non turf wickets go - take a look at the links below for just a couple of examples:

http://www.espncricinfo.com/netherlands/content/player/208657.html

http://www.cricketeurope4.net/CSTATZ/irelandall/ire127.htm

What is your fixation with artificial wickets?

Plates

Gordon Gecko wrote: »

What is your fixation with artificial wickets?

Fixation isn't quite the right word. I am however a strong believer that artificial wickets of a high quality enable a high quality of cricket to be played on them and play a significant role in player development at all levels - and will be essential if cricket is to grow both in number and reach in Ireland.

I've yet to see a cricketing based argument against the use of good quality artificial wickets.

I've no more fixation on artificials than a number of people on here seem to have with turf.

djimi

Plates wrote: »

Fixation isn't quite the right word. I am however a strong believer that artificial wickets of a high quality enable a high quality of cricket to be played on them and play a significant role in player development at all levels - and will be essential if cricket is to grow both in number and reach in Ireland.

I've yet to see a cricketing based argument against the use of good quality artificial wickets.

I've no more fixation on artificials than a number of people on here seem to have with turf.

Artifical wickets allow games of cricket to go ahead when conditions are less than ideal. A good artificial wicket will even go a long way to emulating a decent pitch. But at the end of the day thats what they are; artificial wickets. The game of cricket is played on turf wickets, its what it exclusively used in the first class and international games, and I am very strongly of the belief that where possible all games of cricket should be played on turf wickets. Im not against using mats; like I said above as a lower league player we wouldnt get many games in were it not for the use of mats, but given a choice I would prefer to play every game on turf as I feel it is how the game is supposed to be played.

Maybe we just have different views about how the game should be played; maybe Im just stuck in an old fashioned traditionalist way of thinking! But I was brought up on the notion that cricket is played on turf wickets, and where possible its how I like to see the game played.

You and others have asked people to point out where in Leinster has good turf wickets; well if people feel that the standard of turf wickets is inadequate then I would suggest that is a far bigger and more pressing issue that needs to be addressed. With a few exceptions I am generally quite happy with the standard of turf wickets we play on (when we do get to use them) but maybe my expectations are lower than someone who plays in division 1/2.

Plates

Without non turf wickets - there will be a limit to the number of new players and new clubs playing cricket in Ireland. Non turf wickets are realistically the only way a new club can get off the ground. By your logic - all new entrants to cricket in Leinster will have a limit imposed on how far they can be promoted - regardless of the quality of their teams, players, ground, facilities, youth set up etc.

Hardly seems fair - does it?

D3PO

Cots wrote: »

A pitch cannot be re-used more than once in a div 1 or 2 season so your point of cracks over a number of games is still off the mark

Thats just not accurate at all. Last season out in North County they played a game on a saturday and then a monday on the same track

D3PO

Plates wrote: »

Care to enlighten us on which wickets in Leinster senior cricket you deem to be "proper wickets"? All the turf ones - regardless of quality?

i asked you the opposite of wht wickets you deem to be below a decent standard and you have refused to answer. you ahve a bit of a cheek to ask the opposite if your not prepared to answer yourself.

djimi

Plates wrote: »

Without non turf wickets - there will be a limit to the number of new players and new clubs playing cricket in Ireland. Non turf wickets are realistically the only way a new club can get off the ground. By your logic - all new entrants to cricket in Leinster will have a limit imposed on how far they can be promoted - regardless of the quality of their teams, players, ground, facilities, youth set up etc.

Hardly seems fair - does it?

Realistically Im talking about Division 1 and 2 not using mats at all when possible. How many new teams and players do you know that go straight into the top divisions?

Of course new teams may have to use mats, but I would like to think that when a new team starts and develops a ground it is with a view to developing a square capable of turf wickets at some point in the future, especially if they have serious ambitions of getting into the top divisions.

Cots

D3PO wrote: »

Thats just not accurate at all. Last season out in North County they played a game on a saturday and then a monday on the same track

Of course it's accurate I said cannot be REused more than once, ie. used more than twice, if they did I'm sure it was well tended to but fair play to them for trying a bit of variety on the track

Gordon Gecko

Plates wrote: »

Fixation isn't quite the right word. I am however a strong believer that artificial wickets of a high quality enable a high quality of cricket to be played on them and play a significant role in player development at all levels - and will be essential if cricket is to grow both in number and reach in Ireland.

I've yet to see a cricketing based argument against the use of good quality artificial wickets.

I've no more fixation on artificials than a number of people on here seem to have with turf.

But you consider Sandyford (which is an out and out brutal mat) to be good quality?

Plates

Gordon Gecko wrote: »

But you consider Sandyford (which is an out and out brutal mat) to be good quality?

I've never played on the mat in Sandyford.

Bobo148

Cots wrote: »

Of course it's accurate I said cannot be REused more than once, ie. used more than twice, if they did I'm sure it was well tended to but fair play to them for trying a bit of variety on the track

No, it's still inaccurate and a gross misrepresentation of the facts. There is no limit to the number of times that a pitch can be used in Leinster cricket.

Sure ask Plates, he'll be able to tell you that there are no regulations on the standards of turf pitches that need to be used. He bangs on about it enough.

Cots

Gordon Gecko wrote: »

But you consider Sandyford (which is an out and out brutal mat) to be good quality?

I said the Sandyford mat was good for spinners and offered them the same help as a newly prepared grass wicket, I still said it was massivley uneven in bounce and gave one of many ridiculous examples of such

Cots

Bobo148 wrote: »

No, it's still inaccurate and a gross misrepresentation of the facts. There is no limit to the number of times that a pitch can be used in Leinster cricket.

Sure ask Plates, he'll be able to tell you that there are no regulations on the standards of turf pitches that need to be used. He bangs on about it enough.

I'll be honest with you Bobo, I'll believe that when I see a team using the same wicket 5 and 6 times in the season, why else would teams have such big squares when it would obviously be cheaper to just have 3 or 4 wickets and keep re-using them, the other reason I'm sure there's a regulation around somewhere is wasnt the Phoenix-Tarf game in Tarf called off due to an unplayable pitch on it's second time being used?

Bobo148

Cots wrote: »

I'll be honest with you Bobo, I'll believe that when I see a team using the same wicket 5 and 6 times in the season, why else would teams have such big squares when it would obviously be cheaper to just have 3 or 4 wickets and keep re-using them, the other reason I'm sure there's a regulation around somewhere is wasnt the Phoenix-Tarf game in Tarf called off due to an unplayable pitch on it's second time being used?

The thing is that they do, just not all at the same level. Most good groundsmen will use a pitch several times over the course of a season, starting at 1st XI level and often working its way down. It really depends on the number and timing of matches. Have you any experience of grounds with turf pitches? I suspect not.

I don't know what the story was with the match in Clontarf but surely the club would have been punished if a reg existed?

Cots

Bobo148 wrote: »

The thing is that they do, just not all at the same level. Most good groundsmen will use a pitch several times over the course of a season, starting at 1st XI level and often working its way down. It really depends on the number and timing of matches. Have you any experience of grounds with turf pitches? I suspect not.

I don't know what the story was with the match in Clontarf but surely the club would have been punished if a reg existed?

There's no regulation limiting it from being used under senior level, I never said there was.. What I'm saying is I'm fairly sure the reg exists to say there cant be more than 2 senior games on the one wicket, not any other level just senior. Doesnt matter how it's used after that

TrueDub

Cots wrote: »

There's no regulation limiting it from being used under senior level, I never said there was.. What I'm saying is I'm fairly sure the reg exists to say there cant be more than 2 senior games on the one wicket, not any other level just senior. Doesnt matter how it's used after that

Unless the regs changed a lot in the last season, such a regulation does not exist. The LCU regs are on their website, so you could check if you wished.

Bobo148

Cots wrote: »

There's no regulation limiting it from being used under senior level, I never said there was.. What I'm saying is I'm fairly sure the reg exists to say there cant be more than 2 senior games on the one wicket, not any other level just senior. Doesnt matter how it's used after that

Your knowledge of the regs is limited.

Cots

Bobo148 wrote: »

Your knowledge of the regs is limited.

Sorry mate know this might be a bit off topic but are you the 'tarf Bobo?

TrueDub

Cots wrote: »

Sorry mate know this might be a bit off topic but are you the 'tarf Bobo?

That's Bobbo, and he's not, as far as I know. I could be wrong though.