Non Turf Wickets

Plates

Discuss

TrueDub

Plates wrote: »

Discuss

Go ahead.

Plates

Ok - let's begin....



Rumour has it that the 2012 regulations for the Bob Kerr Irish Senior Cup require all matches to be played on turf wickets. I'm wondering if anyone has any thoughts on that? Here are a few of mine:

• If it's true - there was no consultation with clubs prior to the decision being made
• The Ulster Cup - played between 1st teams in the NCU and NWCU is sponsored by Club Turf - a supplier of non-turf wickets. The regulations for the competition stipulate that the final must be played on a Club Turf wicket. Therefore Cricket Ireland appear to be implying that the product of one of the long standing sponsors of a regional cup competition is not good enough for the Irish Senior Cup
• There is nothing in current regulations covering the quality of turf wickets. It seems that as long as it's turf - it's ok - regardless of quality / performance

Gordon Gecko

Hate non-turf wickets with a passion to be honest, would take a horrendous turf wicket over a good non-turf any day of the week.

Plates

Gordon Gecko wrote: »

Hate non-turf wickets with a passion to be honest, would take a horrendous turf wicket over a good non-turf any day of the week.

Any particular reason for this passion Gordon?

crackit

Gordon Gecko wrote: »

Hate non-turf wickets with a passion to be honest, would take a horrendous turf wicket over a good non-turf any day of the week.

Agreed. Cricket was meant to be played in natural conditions. We have the benefit of covered wickets most of the time now but if we don't then tough luck. Cricket was played on uncovered wickets for years. Pitch conditions are, and always will be, a factor in deciding games.

Artificial strips are only suitable for netting IMO to save on wear and tear on the square.

TheDrog

Gordon Gecko wrote: »

Hate non-turf wickets with a passion to be honest, would take a horrendous turf wicket over a good non-turf any day of the week.

for the most part I agree with you but there are a couple of exceptions which I'll go into.

Personally I understand why artificial wickets are a necessity for many clubs but I do feel that there is no place for them in senior cricket which should be exclusively for grass tracks except where weather or unforeseen events prevent it.

I don't feel that they aid the development of younger bowlers as they offer very little in the natural variation that you can find on a grass track. Most of them favour the batsman and the ones that don't for the most part are the ones that its generally felt have something wrong with them Bird avenue and Rush until the start of last season being a major example of this. examples of those that favour the batsman are the new Rush mat and Sandyford.

They come in very useful during bad weather and wet conditions because they allow games to be played that simply couldn't be but otherwise but they should not be exclusively used by any side where posible. I played on grass 3 times in eleven games last year for my side. I missed two more games through injury which were both also played on artificials.the games on grass being at Mount Temple (frightening turn), Castle avenue (perfect, at least for our level) and Aravon (frankly dangerous). To be fair many clubs try and give their lower teams an opportunity to play on grass tracks but it isn't always possible. This year because one of the wickets on the square in Rush collapsed the pressure on the others meant that the lower teams were only able to have access to the artificial

Some grounds obviously don't have the ability to put down an artificial but where the grass tracks are dangerous something should be done, Aravon is a good example of a place where a mat should be used before someone gets badly injured. For anyone who hasn't played there, there is a ridge running across the square which when the ball hits it causes a very quick rise turning a full length delivery into a bouncer and with young players getting so used to the regular bounce you get on an artificial they struggle to react to it when it does kick up. the old pitch in Alsaa was the same and on several occassions we did have players hurt there.

Bobo148

Plates wrote: »

Ok - let's begin....



Rumour has it that the 2012 regulations for the Bob Kerr Irish Senior Cup require all matches to be played on turf wickets. I'm wondering if anyone has any thoughts on that? Here are a few of mine:

• If it's true - there was no consultation with clubs prior to the decision being made
• The Ulster Cup - played between 1st teams in the NCU and NWCU is sponsored by Club Turf - a supplier of non-turf wickets. The regulations for the competition stipulate that the final must be played on a Club Turf wicket. Therefore Cricket Ireland appear to be implying that the product of one of the long standing sponsors of a regional cup competition is not good enough for the Irish Senior Cup
• There is nothing in current regulations covering the quality of turf wickets. It seems that as long as it's turf - it's ok - regardless of quality / performance

Plates,

If you did a survey of those that play cricket in this country the vast majority would tell you that they would prefer to play on a turf wicket, regardless of quality. Cricket has been, is and always will be designed to play on turf.

In all your comments about quality of turf pitches you handily avoid mentioning the issue of poor quality artificial pitches. Some of them around the country are good, and well maintained. Many are poor with uneven and low bounce, nails and poor stump holes etc.

The comment re a sponsor is disingenuous at best. Every competition has sponsors with different preferences and to use one competition as a yard stick for another is selective at best.

Keep 'er lit.

D3PO

you would struggle to find anybody who says they prefer to play on a mat than a turf wicket but thats really off topic.

Interesting decision for the Bob Kerr ISC.

Wonder if Terenue will be given an exemption to the rule like they have to play senior cricket in the LCU ?

Which in my view is a joke. You either have a rule or you dont.

Plates

D3PO wrote: »

Wonder if Terenue will be given an exemption to the rule like they have to play senior cricket in the LCU ?

Which in my view is a joke. You either have a rule or you dont.

What exemption do Terenure have and what is the rule you're referring to?

In case you weren't around when Terenure (then CYM) were granted Senior Status by the LCU (which was 30 years ago) - it was a condition of that status that we install a non-turf wicket as we weren't able to produce a high enough standard of turf wicket due to the fact that the ground is shared with rugby and soccer.

I agree that it's a bit of a joke that there's no rule. In my opinion we're actually starting at step 2 in this discussion when we talk about turf vs non-turf. Step 1 is to define acceptable standards / parameters for how you want wickets to play and then you move on to assess if these can be met by both turf and non-turf. You then make a decision (based on what your overall strategy is in relation to long term development) on what levels you want to allow choice between turf and non-turf.

We don't need to start from scratch here - the ECB (which most associate countries look to for advice / studies / assessments that they can leverage) have 2 main documents that should form the basis of this discussion:

Recommended Guidelines for the construction, preparation and maintenance of cricket pitches and outfields at all levels of the game:

http://static.ecb.co.uk/files/ts4-ecb-groundsmanship-2011-1337.pdf

Code of Practice and Technical Requirements for the Design and Installation of Non-Turf Cricket Facilities:

http://static.ecb.co.uk/files/code-of-practice-apr-08-2252.pdf

The document above outlines the standards that Terenure adhere to when selecting a non-turf wicket to ensure that we have a high quality playing surface that incorporates the best elements of a turf wicket, benefits skilled batsmen and bowlers and facilitates the continued development of our youth players.

Just to be clear - there are few - if any people associated to Terenure that disagree that cricket should be played on quality turf wickets where possible. But in the absence of quality turf wickets - we should be playing cricket on the surface that most closely replicates a quality turf wicket and enable the best quality of cricket and the best opoortunity for bowlers and batsmen to develop. I long for the day when the wickets produced at The Hills are the standard as opposed to the exception. Until we reach that day I can't accept that it's in the best interests of cricket in Leinster or Ireland to have wickets at Senior level where it's accepted that a score of 180 batting first is competitive.

TheDrog

There was some talk around recently of Terenure using Trinity's ground this year, the BKISC could be the reason why. Especially since from the LCU AGM it seems possible that starting in 2013 all top flight cricket should be played on turf

Plates

TheDrog wrote: »

There was some talk around recently of Terenure using Trinity's ground this year, the BKISC could be the reason why. Especially since from the LCU AGM it seems possible that starting in 2013 all top flight cricket should be played on turf

I've highlighted the important part above.

The basic truth as it stands is that Terenure could cut a 22 yard strip at the edge of the rugby pitch, roll it, mark it stick stumps in it and call it a turf wicket. Because there is nothing in the regulations about acceptable quality of grass wickets and no grounds committee to even define what they would be there would be nothing to stop us. In fact - even if (which is likely) the umpires declared it unplayable - the precedent was already set last season - so we would face no penalty - and the match would simply be refixed.

Do we really want to go down that route? Or do we want to be sensible and do what's best for the sake of development of cricket?

TheDrog

Yes as a matter of fact I do think we should be looking to go down that road or do you think that county cricket/ODIs/Tests/T20s should be played on artificials? To improve the game we need to be looking for the best players in the country to be playing on proper wickets not artificial surfaces.

Plates

TheDrog wrote: »

Yes as a matter of fact I do think we should be looking to go down that road or do you think that county cricket/ODIs/Tests/T20s should be played on artificials? To improve the game we need to be looking for the best players in the country to be playing on proper wickets not artificial surfaces.

Can we get a reality check here please? For a variety of reasons clubs at the top level in Leinster cricket have failed to consistently produce wickets of a high standard. This could be a result of location (i.e. poor underlying soil conditions / shared facilities), climate, lack of finance / knowledge / support / guidance etc. etc. - the list goes on. We can't compare ourselves to ODI / Test venues.

At the risk of repeating myself - I think that cricket should be played on turf wickets - as long as those turf wickets enable a high standard of cricket to be played and develop skilled, rounded cricketers. Too many dibbly dobbly bowlers and front foot gashers have profited from the poor overall standard of turf wickets over the years and this cannot be good for the development of the game in this country.

I'll finish with a couple of things you might find interesting.

Back in 2006 Darrin Murray (former New Zealand test batsman) was playing in the Dutch leagues. He was critical of the coconut matting surfaces that were prevalent at the time because they were inconsistent and hampered the development of batsmen and bowlers alike. It was acknowledged that many Dutch clubs couldn't produce turf wickets. Rather than ignore the obvious and advise that they should try to develop turf wickets anyway he said "artificial surfaces of the Notts weave type are the obvious answer, producing wickets that behave more like grass". The full article is available at http://www.cricketeurope4.net/DATABASE/ARTICLES/articles/000032/003270.shtml


The Pepsi ICC World Cricket League regulations include a facility for matches to be played on non-turf pitches where necessary
- Law 7.3 – “Where possible, and grounds are of standard, as first preference all matches shall be played on natural turf pitches. Where necessary though matches can be scheduled on non-turf pitches for the duration of the tournament, or on the reserve days, subject to compliance of Law 7.5”

TheDrog

okay here's a reality check, many of the artificial wickets are substandard here. Spend some time playing in the lower leagues and on school pitches and you'll realise this.

Plates

TheDrog wrote: »

okay here's a reality check, many of the artificial wickets are substandard here. Spend some time playing in the lower leagues and on school pitches and you'll realise this.

Reinforces my point perfectly that the first thing that needs to be tackled is wicket standards - then we can move on to what they're made of.

I've played in lower leagues and found equally poor turf and non-turf wickets. My not too distant future will also be in the lower leagues.

Gordon Gecko

Plates wrote: »

Any particular reason for this passion Gordon?

Bird Avenue, Wesley, Kenilworth Sq., Whitechurch, Malahide, Laois to name but a few......

TheDrog

even worse than any of those Alexandra college, the ice rink.

crackit

I've had a few differences of opinion on here and that's all fair game in my book. No one is going to cry over it.

Can I ask you a genuine question though Plates? Why did you come on here starting a thread on a topic no one else was particularly interested in adding to until you were prompted to offer some discussion on it.

Then you go on the offensive about anyone who doesn't seem to agree with your opinion of artificial wickets? It's all very strangely passive aggressive.

You've a hard one for artifical surfaces for some reason. As much as you're trying to disguise it by saying that the quality of surface is the problem rather than what they are made of you're whole bringing to the forum this 'issue' suggests you feel otherwise.

I'll put it simply enough. Probably 80% natural wickets I've played on are of a decent standard are better. On the other hand I'd say 80% of artifical wickets I've played on are rubbish. It's really that simple.

For every one horror natural pitch like a Mount Temple you have great places like Railway, Pembroke, YMCA, Phoenix etc... where the wickets are superb. But for every one good mat you have like the new one in Rush you have awful mats like Wesley, Laois, Kenilworth, Columbas and *shudders* Bird Ave.

Plates

crackit wrote: »

Can I ask you a genuine question though Plates? Why did you come on here starting a thread on a topic no one else was particularly interested in adding to until you were prompted to offer some discussion on it.

Then you go on the offensive about anyone who doesn't seem to agree with your opinion of artificial wickets? It's all very strangely passive aggressive.

I wanted to see if there were any opinions out there before I gave mine. I didn't get any so I started with my views. There have been a fair few opinions voiced over the past few days - so I can't agree that no one else is particularly interested.

Can you clarify where I went on the offensive?

There are sh*t grass wickets and there are sh*t artificial wickets as you rightly point out. If we can all agree with that and move along - we can then look at why it is the case that the LCU have neither a regulation related to clubs resposibilities for wicket quality nor a grounds committee in place to devise or implement one.

Are we happy to meander along as we are - or is it in the best interest of cricket development to set some wicket and ground standards?

D3PO

Plates wrote: »

I
There are sh*t grass wickets and there are sh*t artificial wickets as you rightly point out. If we can all agree with that and move along - we can then look at why it is the case that the LCU have neither a regulation related to clubs resposibilities for wicket quality nor a grounds committee in place to devise or implement one.

Are we happy to meander along as we are - or is it in the best interest of cricket development to set some wicket and ground standards?

Did you go to the recent LCU AGM and express your concerns and propose the LCU introduce regulations regarding the condition of wickets ?

If not then your as culpable as anybody to meander along as is.

Plates

D3PO wrote: »

Did you go to the recent LCU AGM and express your concerns and propose the LCU introduce regulations regarding the condition of wickets ?

Yes I did.

D3PO

Plates wrote: »

Yes I did.

and what was the response to you raising this issue ?

Plates

D3PO wrote: »

and what was the response to you raising this issue ?

It was agreed that a broader discussion was required so a working group is being put together. Full details on the AGM are at http://www.cricketleinster.ie/news/annual-autumn-general-meeting

D3PO

ok so why did you bother asking if we were happy to meander on ? Clearly you knew the answer based on the fact the LCU acknowledge and agreed to put a workign group together to tackle this ?


I know it has been raised earlier but your posting behaviours are very strange. It seems your waiting for people to pull your opinions out rather than just stating your position.

It would be a much more construtive debate if you were to actually just post things rather than having to be asked your opinion every time.

Plates

Short of physically going around to every club - this is the best chance I have of getting a sense of what players think about wicket standards.

The working group is not necessarily going to represent the views of all players - as you'll know if you've spent any time on committees.

If you read back through my posts you'll see that I've stated my opinion on many occassions independant of previous posts - and many of those opinions haven't been commented on by others. By responding to the views of others - it clearly makes for a more interesting debate - no?

D3PO

well you need to be realistic.

Its all well and good having an aspirational goal of having a high standard of wicket across all grounds but the fact is that many of the smaller clubs running small budgets are probably not in the position to maintain wickets as well as they would like.

even artifical wickets. I mean the cost of laying a new mat is not cheap.

we all want to play on top class turf wickets every week but the cost , and timely maintenence associated with that isnt something that is accessible to all clubs.

let me ask you this ? In the quest to improve wicket standards would you propose certain wickets arent allowed be used unless improved ?

if yes then what would happen if clubs said look we cant afford to do that work. Would you be prepared to improve general playing facilities at the expense of club and player number growth ?

If Im being honest outside of the top divisions which I fully agree should have a high stanard is the wicket really that big a deal once its not of a dangerous nature ?

Your generally talking (and I include myself in this statement) of players who really arent of an ability to fully appreciate and or benefit from a good quality wicket anyway

Gordon Gecko

How can young players develop if they're playing on mats like Sandyford every week? Many young players begin their careers in the lower leagues on a club's lower teams. Bowlers cannot hone their skills and develop their different deliveries on the atrocious non-turf wickets which litter Leinster cricket.

If I recall correctly last season there was some ground equipment rental scheme for LCU clubs. In my opinion this should be enhanced with a view to helping clubs develop turf wickets and ensure that non-turf wickets are only used in the most dire of circumstances.

Plates

Absolutely agree that there are some shocking artificial wickets out there which do nothing for development. This goes back to my main point of there being no regulations or even guidelines for new or existing clubs. There are a number of different companies and a number of different types of artificial wicket available - depending on intended use. Since the outlay for this type of wicket is significant - it would be beneficial if the LCU at least provided guidance to clubs on how to get the best quality for their budget. A great start is the ECB document at the link below:

http://static.ecb.co.uk/files/ecb-non-turf-pitches-ts6-final-328.pdf

TheDrog

I should clarify as regards the Sandyford and Rush artificial wickets that it is the extra bounce that I have issues. They're both very even in their extra bounce and not dangerous.

D3PO

Gordon Gecko wrote: »

How can young players develop if they're playing on mats like Sandyford every week? .

what is your issue with the Sandyford mat. its one of the better ones about in terms of being even and having decent bounce.