"Leap" into the unknown: The feedback thread

devnull

Nice of Irish Rail to give everyone such a large amount of notice as well :rolleyes:

Obviously there is sense in some of them being taken out of use, but others is purely silly when no capping options exist.

Why could they not just offer such products on LEAP rather than getting rid of them altogether in some cases?

Was this down to IE or Transport for Ireland

LXFlyer

devnull wrote: »

Nice of Irish Rail to give everyone such a large amount of notice as well :rolleyes:

Obviously there is sense in some of them being taken out of use, but others is purely silly when no capping options exist.

Why could they not just offer such products on LEAP rather than getting rid of them altogether in some cases?

Was this down to IE or Transport for Ireland

Transport for Ireland is simply a brand.


I think you mean the National Transport Authority, and I believe it's down to them.


To put some figures on this:


The weekly cap is €40. That means roughly a monthly cost of €173.


The Bus/Rail monthly ticket costs €156, the Bus/LUAS cost €145 - anyone using these tickets may end up paying significantly more.


The Rail/LUAS cost €177, and the Rail/LUAS/Bus cost €218 - these tickets will now be cheaper.


The student monthly bus/rail ticket costs €119, while the equivalent capping costs €130.


The family bus/rail ticket costs €19.50. The equivalent capping for 2 adults and 4 children costs €34.


Some staggeringly daft thinking here that capping solves everything, which it clearly does not.

LXFlyer

Carawaystick wrote: »

I think this is outrageous!
There is no reason to link tax information to public transport information. I've posted before, and I think we've disagreed amicably about the cie taxsaver system, but there should be no way for cie to know the tax or other status of their customers; nor should they discriminate amoung customers on the basis of them having awful employers who won't participate in the tax break scheme, or customers who are self employed, or on short term contracts.

I'm sorry but you are getting overly paranoid here.


The transport companies know nothing about your tax. They have no access to that whatsoever, be it your PPSN, personal details etc. All they know is that the company has bought the ticket on your behalf through the taxsaver scheme. That's it.

Hotblack Desiato

The taxsaver scheme is fundamentally unjust and should be scrapped.

If the government wants to subsidise public transport (and they should) there are many more fair ways to do it.

Another legacy of the Greens :rolleyes:

goingnowhere

ninja900 wrote: »

The taxsaver scheme is fundamentally unjust and should be scrapped.

If the government wants to subsidise public transport (and they should) there are many more fair ways to do it.

Another legacy of the Greens :rolleyes:

Was around long before the Greens ever took seats on the government benches

LXFlyer

ninja900 wrote: »

The taxsaver scheme is fundamentally unjust and should be scrapped.

If the government wants to subsidise public transport (and they should) there are many more fair ways to do it.

Another legacy of the Greens :rolleyes:

Why?


It's there to encourage people to use public transport (as in change their behaviour) by making the cost more affordable.


It should be expanded and extended to anyone that wants to use it.

Hotblack Desiato

It favours taxpayers over non-taxpayers, higher rate over lower rate, and discriminates against the self-employed and those whose employers don't participate.

L1011

ninja900 wrote: »

Another legacy of the Greens :rolleyes:

I believe it was introduced in about 2000, well before the Greens had any influence.

LXFlyer

ninja900 wrote: »

It favours taxpayers over non-taxpayers, higher rate over lower rate, and discriminates against the self-employed and those whose employers don't participate.

As I said above well perhaps it should be expanded to include self-employed and all PAYE workers.

Seaswimmer

Seaswimmer wrote: »

I discovered something else about auto top up over the weekend. One of the family members has a student leapcard which was recently enabled for auto top up. He mostly uses the student rambler loaded on the ticket but has epurse as well for DART, Luas ect

Yesterday he got the bus at 11:00 and as expected it took a day off the student Rambler. It also gave a message that auto top was activated but even though the epurse balance was only €2.85 it didnt top up the epurse. I presume he has to actually carry out an epurse transaction.

I would have thought that ANY transaction would have auto topped up the epurse??

update..

Online account still shows €2.85 even though the card has been used a few times since Sunday.

Rang LEAP and they said the card will not auto top up until the epurse is used. He has being using student rambler for the last few days.

So no big deal except I thought ANY transaction would invoke the auto top up and apply credit..

loyatemu

The family bus/rail ticket costs €19.50. The equivalent capping for 2 adults and 4 children costs €34.

Its worse than that surely - you would need to have 6 Leap cards to start with - this would completely discourage casual usage.

Dravokivich

ninja900 wrote: »

It favours taxpayers over non-taxpayers, higher rate over lower rate, and discriminates against the self-employed and those whose employers don't participate.

The problem here, is that whoever is in charge of these tickets with Leap isn't thinking of what required for people to avail of them. The multi operator cap, just like when the dublin bus/luas tickets were withdrawn is not fit for purpose here.

There needs to be something implemented that suits the needs of

Dublin Bus/Irish Rail users
and
Dublin Bus/Luas users

It's unfair on them that they are now being lumped into Dublin Bus/Irish Rail/Luas users even though they only want to use 2 out of the 3. But that's a completely separete issue to what you are bringing up with Taxsaver. Taxsaver should be the exception in this setup, but it's now presented as the "option available," when it's only available under limited circumstances.

bk

Well I believe there is a certain amount of simplification here which on the whole is a good thing. There are currently far too many ticket types.

However in typical Irish fashion, they haven't really gone far enough with it. Really they need to overhaul the entire ticketing system and VASTLY simplify it.

- Introduce tag-on/tag-off on Dublin Bus
- Introduce a per km charging system that works across all forms of public transport like in Amsterdam and allows for easy integrated travel
- Allow for a daily, weekly and monthly cap
- Scrap the free travel scheme, replace it with 50% off for old age pensioners
- Scrap the taxsaver scheme
- With the money saved from the above two steps, increase the subsidy to public transport and drop the ticket prices of public transport for all users.

syklops

I'm in two minds about how to approach the leap card. I live and work on the Luas line so I use it(the luas) everyday. Getting a(paper) monthly ticket is cheaper than just tagging on and off everyday, plus I don't have to worry about tagging on and off( I thought I had tagged on a few weeks ago, but it hadn't, so I got a fine :mad:).

I really like the idea of Leap and I will use continue to use it for one off trips and on buses, but its really annoying using it everyday, having money on the card and then getting a 40 euro fine, because you are not tagged on, when I could just keep a piece of paper in my wallet thats says "Im allowed be on here".

bk

^^^

Just be more careful using the validators.

Look at the screen when tagging on/off, it will clearly show you if you have tagged on/off, make sure it isn't showing an error message instead!

But of course if you are regularly using the Luas, then a monthly ticket is the better option.

syklops

bk wrote: »

^^^

But of course if you are regularly using the Luas, then a monthly ticket is the better option.

I think so too. It also works out cheaper, for the most part. A single trip from home to work is 2.10 on the leap card, so about 4.20 per day, or 21 euros a week(going on a 5 day week) and no-where near the cap. I rarely use the luas at the weekend. Over a month, 4 weeks is 84 euros. I can get a monthly ticket from my home to St Stephens green(the far end) for 92 euros for the month.

Ok decision made. Monthly tickets it is. Thanks for helping me decide.

devnull

The idea with removing the two mode tickets and replacing them with a three mode cap which is between the price of the old two mode cap and the old three mode cap is pretty obvious.

Sure there are winners and losers with this, but the idea is to stop the multitude of tickets that are offered for different modes and instead offer a simpler solution for all modes like most other cities.

I'd have kept:
* Adult Monthly Rail, Bus & Luas (On Leap Card - buy from ticket machines)
* Student Monthly Rail & Bus (Add Luas - On Student Travel Card)
* Family One Day Rail & Bus (Move to Leap and add Luas)
* 7 Day Rolling Bus 90 Luas
* All Dublin Bus Feeder Bus Tickets (Until rebates come in)

TheChrisD

bk wrote: »

- Scrap the free travel scheme, replace it with 50% off for old age pensioners

Good luck actually managing to do that.

AlekSmart

TheChrisD wrote: »

Good luck actually managing to do that.

Interestingly,the Free Travel Scheme is NOT established in Statute.

It is what's known as an "Administrative Scheme",which means it can be abolished by Ministerial Order at the stroke of a pen.

The scenario described by bk may appear far-fetched to some,however the precedent has now been set by the NTA with the ONLY Private Sector PSO Service Contracts (Routes 828/828X) accepting the FT Pass for a 50% discount only.

With the 828 now operating for 12 months (after a stuttering start ) the principle of a "Concession" rate has now been firmly established.

All we now have to do is wait and see whether the NTA will devise a totally different set of contracts for the 10% of DB & BE Routes due for outsourcing in 2016....bet there's a bit of headscratching being done in Dún Sceine alright....:D

Julius Seizure

Abolishing it has been done in other countries. Like in Belgium, TEC (Public transport in Wallonia, French speaking Belgium) used to give out free passes but now it's a 30 euro a year fee. It means that those who are reliant on it can spend a nominally small amount and still get a pass, and those who wouldn't need a pass wouldn't buy them, cutting the amount of passes. That's only for Bus and Metro mind you, the SNCB (railways) is separate and charges 6.50 flat fare for a day return. Something similar could be done over here, adjusted of course

Fred Swanson

This post has been deleted.

AlekSmart

Fred Swanson wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

Might have at one point,however,the USC,Household Charge,Water Rates and alla dah have been a learning curve for Irish Administrators...once sacroanct "entitlements" can be removed.....

Bear in mind that of the 748,000 + Free Travel Passes,less than 50% are held by persons of Pensionable Age,so that neatly deals with the "Old Age Pass" arguement.....

Expect a far more targetted OAP FREE Travel Pass,accompanied by a "Concessionary Fare " scheme for the remainder.....;)

bk

Fred Swanson wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

And yet they were able to slowly eliminate the free phone rental for OAPs over two years with little objection.

OAP's seem to be willing to fight for their pension and medical. But seem more ambivalent on these other benefits.

You could start by making it off-peak only (like it originally was and should never have been changed from) and limiting it to OAP's only, with a 50% concession for the others.

A few years down the line, you then move the OAP's onto the 50% concession too. All the while you move everyone to a leap style card with ID on it to fight fraud.

Fred Swanson

This post has been deleted.

LXFlyer

Really the only changes that could be made would be:
* Re-establish charging at peak times in cities
* Possibly introduce a nominal charge for long distance travel

The notion of charging in cities or local trips, be it half-price or otherwise, really would be a step too far and doesn't recognise one of the key reasons for the scheme.

People need to remember that part of the rationale of the scheme is to encourage people to get out and keep mobile, thus reducing pressure on our health services.

Having access to free travel means people will get out and about more.

LXFlyer

A quick note on LEAP, which is really what this thread is about!

If two people are travelling together on Dublin Bus, and one has a rambler ticket on their LEAP card, the second person can travel as a companion using the e-purse (via the driver's ticket machine) after the rambler ticket has been validated on the righthand validator.

Handy to know that the companion function is available in both modes.

Hotblack Desiato

lxflyer wrote: »

People need to remember that part of the rationale of the scheme is to encourage people to get out and keep mobile, thus reducing pressure on our health services.

Having access to free travel means people will get out and about more.

They'd be even better off walking

Seriously though, there is a bit of a backlash building up, Bertie Ahern certainly knew how to butter up pensioners using taxpayers' money (just like his mentor Haughey who introduced the FTP) and he was richly rewarded by them with great quantities of votes, yet this cohort of society is almost entirely insulated from cuts. It is grating to watch wealthy pensioners (70k income for a couple, mortgage free) demonstrate about loss of a medical card while families in need have to pay €50 per visit, plus drugs, any time one of their kids is sick.

smellmepower

Validator was giving off some sort of software update message on bus home this evening and wouldn't recognize any LEAP cards so the driver just waved us on.Doesn't happen very often,but its nice when it does!

AlekSmart

Fred Swanson wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

Whilst I see where Fred is coming from,the reality is that the DSP has been engaged in a thorough internal review of it's Free Travel Scheme for over 12 months now.

The decisions made consequent upon that study are not yet public,however it would be prudent to expect some significant alterations to both availability and usage.

With the issue of the latest Secure Chipped DSP ID Card now progressing well,the next phase is the withdrawal of the Old "Cornflakes Box" Cardboard Free Travel Pass.

These passes will be considered Null & Void from the end of 2015,thereby leaving some 18 Months to complete the issuing of the FTP ID Card.

The original intention to begin Validating the new FTP Card from this month has been postponed until later in 2014,with the date not yet confirmed.

Even now,with the New FTP Card only in partial use,the level of compliance has significantly improved,as the entitlement to bring a Spouse/Companion is far easier for a Driver to monitor.

With the expectation that the FTP Card will be fully enabled from 2016,I would suggest that will be the starting point for the larger scale revisions.

Stevek101

Some info from the Leap Card team was announced at the SITE Project back in June 13th. Slide show can be found here.

Most interesting bits of info are By Q4 we should have transfer rebates and the system live in Galway, Waterford and Limerick. A potential smart phone app with NFC capabilities is being looked at. New Dublin Bus ticket machines late 2015, that'll bring a smile to a few faces on here.