Socialist Sweden, Norway vs the rest...

Suryavarman · 22-11-2011 5:00pm

zero_hope wrote: »

Having lived in Sweden for over 20 years I think I'm more qualified to judge what actually happened than some accountant type who only look at numbers.

"Nobody in my workplace is unmeployed so therefore Ireland doesn't have an unemployment problem" :rolleyes:. Having a first person account of something is all well and good but your opinion starts to lose credibility when the figures contradict that opinion.

Valmont · 22-11-2011 5:15pm

zero_hope wrote: »

Having lived in Sweden for over 20 years I think I'm more qualified to judge what actually happened than some accountant type who only look at numbers.

Using your logic the Prime Minister's sock is more qualified to discuss Sweden's economy than you are. What bloody nonsense.

Permabear · 22-11-2011 5:23pm

This post has been deleted.

Duke Leonal Felmet · 22-11-2011 5:25pm

zero_hope wrote: »

This post had been deleted.

Having lived in Sweden for over 20 years I think I'm more qualified to judge what actually happened than some accountant type who only look at numbers.[/Quote]

There is a reason why anecdotal evidence is frowned upon in science. A very good reason.

Also, even if you were a leading expert on Sweden, using 'arguments from authority' (look it up) also hold no water in logical discourse.

Emperical evidence is the best way to demonstrate your point, where possible, and in economics, such data is abundant.

So, stop proclaiming yourself as being superior to others, and show us why we are wrong.

karma_ · 22-11-2011 5:37pm

Duke Leonal Felmet wrote: »

There is a reason why anecdotal evidence is frowned upon in science. A very good reason.

Also, even if you were a leading expert on Sweden, using 'arguments from authority' (look it up) also hold no water in logical discourse.

Emperical evidence is the best way to demonstrate your point, where possible, and in economics, such data is abundant.

So, stop proclaiming yourself as being superior to others, and show us why we are wrong.

Yet Swedes and Norwegians seem happy and content to continue to support moderate socialist policy.

I also enjoyed the irony of your logical discourse remark, so thank you for that.

Duke Leonal Felmet · 22-11-2011 5:41pm

karma_ wrote: »

Duke Leonal Felmet wrote: »

There is a reason why anecdotal evidence is frowned upon in science. A very good reason.

Also, even if you were a leading expert on Sweden, using 'arguments from authority' (look it up) also hold no water in logical discourse.

Emperical evidence is the best way to demonstrate your point, where possible, and in economics, such data is abundant.

So, stop proclaiming yourself as being superior to others, and show us why we are wrong.

Yet Swedes and Norwegians seem happy and content to continue to support moderate socialist policy.

I also enjoyed the irony of your logical discourse remark, so thank you for that.

You first post has nothing to do with what I said, and your second post is an attempt at trolling.

Wonderful contribution.

karma_ · 22-11-2011 5:43pm

Duke Leonal Felmet wrote: »

You first post has nothing to do with what I said, and your second post is an attempt at trolling.

Wonderful contribution.

I don't consider pointing out the hypocrisy you have demonstrated to be an act of trolling.

Duke Leonal Felmet · 22-11-2011 5:47pm

karma_ wrote: »

Duke Leonal Felmet wrote: »

You first post has nothing to do with what I said, and your second post is an attempt at trolling.

Wonderful contribution.

I don't consider pointing out the hypocrisy you have demonstrated to be an act of trolling.

Sure. Whatever you say. Now, I have an actual job to do, perhaps you could find something constructive to do yourself, like finding all that oil and gas that supposedly exists.

zero_hope · 22-11-2011 5:59pm

Ok, I'm sorry folks I was totally wrong, since GDP per capita is higher in Ireland than in Sweden and the HDI is also higher in Ireland surely standards of living are higher in Ireland. I will forget all the drug addicts and homeless people you see in Dublin, I will forget all the moldy houses I've seen in Ireland. I will also forget the British teeth syndrome Irish people seem to suffer from. I will forget the crappy roads I have travelled on in Ireland and the poor Internet infrastructure you guys have. Clearly I should trust numbers compiled by accountant types and distrust my own lying eyes.

professore · 22-11-2011 6:06pm

Dannyboy83 wrote: »

We're not a low tax country anymore, and Sweden has always been noteworthy in Ireland for it's efficiency/excellent provision of services. It's frequently the benchmark.

That's only part of the puzzle tho.
You must also ask - what did Ireland have to show for it's high tax economy?
The results were even worse - look back to the 80s.

Not dismissing your points, I do think your arguments have some merit.
I don't think you're being that realistic in the application of the theory tho............You can't walk into Saudi Arabia and make Christianity the state religion & You can't walk into the Republic of Ireland and make people trust the state.

In Ireland, we are raised from day one with the understanding that the country is run by gombeens and incompetents. It's part of the Irish character.

We learn from a young adulthood to expect dismal performance in the provision of services. One of the few notably efficient services are the people who collect the money (revenue).

Let me give you an example.

In 2003, I applied for my first driving test.
I sat it in 2004. I failed it. I reapplied immediately.
It took 14 months to get another appointment, so it was early 2006 and I had already move house in the intervening 14 months. I contacted them to update my address, they still sent it to the wrong address - missed that obviously.
Had to reapply.
Waited another 13 months.
Summer of 2007 - after 3 years waiting from my first test- I resat the test.
Passed the test, took 4 years total, an average of 1 test per 2 years.

By about now - Irish people will be queuing up to tell me I'm some feckin eejit - why didn't I try to jump the queue?
"sher everybody does it! How else are you supposed to get on like? do you know anyone inside? I think I've an uncle who might be able to sort you out!"

And that's the way it works in Ireland.
When it comes to any state service - You have to use pull. You have to pull strokes. If you try to do it by the book in this country, you'll probably be waiting a long, long time.

During the passport crisis in 2010, my girlfriend's mother died and I had to urgently get a passport to travel. In that case, I was able to use some pull and they delivered, and rapidly so.

When my girlfriend lost her job in 2008, I was paying out €1000 per month in various taxes, while the government were busy inventing new laws which prevented her from being able to claim social welfare and me from being able to claim her tax credits.
When she tried to get a Fas course, they signed her up to a course on the wrong side of the country (took them 6 months to do it).
When she eventually got a Fas course - she did it, but since was refused JSA, they also refused to pay her for the Fas course. LOL!
(I can laugh now because we're no longer at the mercy of the Irish state)

Despite the notions of grandeur that some people may have developed during the Celtic Pyramid years, when it comes to the provision of services by the state - not only are they incompetent but they grossly overcharge.

So - armed with this knowledge of how it works in Ireland - you have to ask yourself - how could you possibly hope to apply the Swedish system to this country?
It would require total reform of our state services <- that's simply not going to happen.

In a country like Sweden, I would like to hand over whatever money necessary and just let the state look after all these provisions for me.

In a country like Ireland, you simply cannot take that risk.....the safe thing to do is to try keep as much money back from the state as you can, because they will not provide for you, regardless of how much they take.

And that, Ladies and Gentlemen, is why we will NEVER get good public services in this country even if we had oceans of money.

professore · 22-11-2011 6:13pm

zero_hope wrote: »

Ok, I'm sorry folks I was totally wrong, since GDP per capita is higher in Ireland than in Sweden and the HDI is also higher in Ireland surely standards of living are higher in Ireland. I will forget all the drug addicts and homeless people you see in Dublin, I will forget all the moldy houses I've seen in Ireland. I will also forget the British teeth syndrome Irish people seem to suffer from. I will forget the crappy roads I have travelled on in Ireland and the poor Internet infrastructure you guys have. Clearly I should trust numbers compiled by accountant types and distrust my own lying eyes.

Trust those numbers from the same types who told us about the soft landing in the property market.

I have suffered from flat feet all my life which has given me all kinds of hip and back pain and only found out when I lived in Belgium in my late 20's.

I have a lazy eye that I should not have had there been compulsory health checks for children here, and the one I did have failed to spot my flat feet.

I am also missing a molar as there is no way I can afford a bridge, never mind a dental implant that I could have gotten under the Belgian system.

Luckily I have pretty good teeth, otherwise I'd have dentures at this stage, which I would have to pay through the nose for.

Over the past few years I have paid out well over 10 thousand euro in medical bills and health insurance for my family for substandard health and dental care. This wiped out any advantage I might have had from "lower" taxes.

Now tell me that we have a high HDI. The US is one of the top countries on that survey FFS.

I would add that there is an attitude in Ireland of "I'm all right Jack" and if it doesn't affect me personally the rest of the country can starve.

SamHarris · 22-11-2011 6:47pm

zero_hope wrote: »

Ok, I'm sorry folks I was totally wrong, since GDP per capita is higher in Ireland than in Sweden and the HDI is also higher in Ireland surely standards of living are higher in Ireland. I will forget all the drug addicts and homeless people you see in Dublin, I will forget all the moldy houses I've seen in Ireland. I will also forget the British teeth syndrome Irish people seem to suffer from. I will forget the crappy roads I have travelled on in Ireland and the poor Internet infrastructure you guys have. Clearly I should trust numbers compiled by accountant types and distrust my own lying eyes.

Do you even know what your arguing?

So your are saying the massive liberilisation of the Swedish economy is merely an illusion over the last few decades, that the PM is merely lying when he attributes the growth and prosperity to it and that Sweden actually does not have a very free market with private owners owning the vast majority of production, because you SAW something whilst there that dissproves all that?

Please put this idea in the CT thread, Im sure it will go down a storm there.

Seems to me very obvious that you are a socialist, you wish to see the system work extremly well so you attribute to it successes that no empyrical evidence backs up. We have shown plenty of evidence that it was a switch to free market capilatism which spurred the growth and prosperity (which the government taxes heavily to fund social programs). Your evidence to the contrary is "I was there man!". To any reasonable reader, this part of the debate is a wash. Move on.

SamHarris · 22-11-2011 6:49pm

professore wrote: »

Trust those numbers from the same types who told us about the soft landing in the property market.

I have suffered from flat feet all my life which has given me all kinds of hip and back pain and only found out when I lived in Belgium in my late 20's.

I have a lazy eye that I should not have had there been compulsory health checks for children here, and the one I did have failed to spot my flat feet.

I am also missing a molar as there is no way I can afford a bridge, never mind a dental implant that I could have gotten under the Belgian system.

Luckily I have pretty good teeth, otherwise I'd have dentures at this stage, which I would have to pay through the nose for.

Over the past few years I have paid out well over 10 thousand euro in medical bills and health insurance for my family for substandard health and dental care. This wiped out any advantage I might have had from "lower" taxes.

Now tell me that we have a high HDI. The US is one of the top countries on that survey FFS.

I would add that there is an attitude in Ireland of "I'm all right Jack" and if it doesn't affect me personally the rest of the country can starve.

What are you even arguing?

The US is developed!? What BS, the report must have been written by zionists!

SamHarris · 22-11-2011 7:05pm

professore wrote: »

And that, Ladies and Gentlemen, is why we will NEVER get good public services in this country even if we had oceans of money.

It is also one of the many reasons some people dont think its a great idea for the state to run absolutly everything in the name of some common good or what have you.

It is also not how it is done in Sweden, having good social services and beuracracy is not "socialism" - why the hell do so many people seem to think it is in this thread?

Permabear · 22-11-2011 7:15pm

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JustinDee · 22-11-2011 11:19pm

The only 'socialist' element in Norway that drives economic success on top of the oljefund is high taxation, despite being under grips of unions. Irish people, given uproar at budgetary spending cuts, seem to want everything for nothing and would never stick having to fork out more to the country's infrastructure.
Norway, a monarchy, practises protectionist oligopoly in a nr of trades and despite the import restrictions on even the most basic of luxury goods, is the most materialistic country I've lived in.

People should quit trying to find comparisons where there are none.

Chuck Stone · 23-11-2011 12:17am

The Sweden Myth
Mises Daily: Monday, August 07, 2006 by Stefan Karlsson

http://mises.org/daily/2259

(Excerpt)

Recently, the so-called Swedish model — that is, the Swedish economic system with high taxes and a big welfare state — has been celebrated again in the press.

The alleged recent success of the Swedish economy has allowed welfare statists both inside and outside of Sweden to argue that high taxes and an extensive welfare state are good for the economy. To fully understand this fallacy, we should review Sweden's economic history.

Batsy · 23-11-2011 4:19pm

The main reason why Norway and Sweden aren't suffering the way Ireland is is because both of those countries, unlike Ireland, have their own currencies.

Norway, too, has the added advantage of not even being in the EU.

Duke Leonal Felmet · 23-11-2011 4:24pm

Batsy wrote: »

The main reason why Norway and Sweden aren't suffering the way Ireland is is because both of those countries, unlike Ireland, have their own currencies.

Norway, too, has the added advantage of not even being in the EU.

Yeah... if I was trying to big up Norway's success as being down to some hairbrained idea, I would conveniently ignore all that oil too...

Norwayviking · 23-11-2011 7:47pm

melekalikimaka wrote: »

my gf is norwegian and my aunt is finnish and i can assure you its not all rainbows and lollipops. I have been over many times to both places and have friends from both countries.

Thats unfortunately right.:eek:
The socialistparties in Norway have done more damage then good in there time in power.
And not to mention the very very failed immigration politics they are responsible for.

jank · 24-11-2011 1:38am

Permabear wrote: »

This post had been deleted.

As a matter of interest what country would you hold up as an example of a Free Market benchmark.

PeadarCo · 24-11-2011 10:13am

Batsy wrote: »

The main reason why Norway and Sweden aren't suffering the way Ireland is is because both of those countries, unlike Ireland, have their own currencies.

Norway, too, has the added advantage of not even being in the EU.

Norway is in the EEA which means they still have to take the majority of EU legislation and they also pay in but have no formal input into that legislation.

Also if the Euro was the primary cause what about Iceland and Latvia
http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/finance/2011/1118/1224307759681.html

Ireland could have avoided this mess if the government had taken a long term view and not focused on the shortterm.

Duke Leonal Felmet · 24-11-2011 10:33am

jank wrote: »

This post had been deleted.

As a matter of interest what country would you hold up as an example of a Free Market benchmark.[/Quote]

There are indices of economic freedom out there. One I checked has Hong Kong at number one. Funnily enough, Sweden are at number 22, Norway at 30 in the world. Check Wikipedia 'Index of economic freedom'.

Although, such indices must always be taken with a pinch of salt, and one must *always* understand the methodology employed before using them to make judgement calls. Always.

JustinDee · 24-11-2011 10:42am

PeadarCo wrote: »

Norway is in the EEA which means they still have to take the majority of EU legislation and they also pay in but have no formal input into that legislation

A little broad.
The legislation that an EEA signs up to is related to participation within the EU single market only. They man their own taxation policies such as import duty for example and the EU has no say in fiscal policy either.

biko · 24-11-2011 12:35pm

Duke Leonal Felmet wrote: »

Why is Kuwait so well off? Clearly the product of free market principles, with it being regarded as one of the most free market economies in the region. Yay for capitalism!

FFS...

Kuwait has oil. Sweden has ore, copper, silver and timber.

Countries with major natural resources will always come out on top in any system, unless they're in Africa of course (but the daylight robbery of their resources are a discussion for another day).

Capitalism didn't make Kuwait rich.

biko · 24-11-2011 12:36pm

Norwayviking wrote: »

And not to mention the very very failed immigration politics they are responsiblke for.

I hear ya brother...

Duke Leonal Felmet · 24-11-2011 12:50pm

biko wrote: »

Duke Leonal Felmet wrote: »

Why is Kuwait so well off? Clearly the product of free market principles, with it being regarded as one of the most free market economies in the region. Yay for capitalism!

FFS...

Kuwait has oil. Sweden has ore, copper, silver and timber.

Countries with major natural resources will always come out on top in any system, unless they're in Africa of course (but the daylight robbery of their resources are a discussion for another day).

Capitalism didn't make Kuwait rich.

Jeez, talk about missing the target.

Oh, and timber is definitely as good as an ocean of oil. You're spot on there.

Norwayviking · 24-11-2011 1:37pm

biko wrote: »

I hear ya brother...

Anytime bro:D

T runner · 24-11-2011 1:46pm

Permabear wrote: »

This post had been deleted.

Not at all. There is a difference between a housing crises and a banking crash. Astute regulation there has meant that free market banking has not been allowed to drag the economy and state down the toilet. This has not been the case in any of the economies that have allowed the banking/investment industry to proceed without regulation (countries with freer regulation).

The "free market" is as idealistic and elusive as "real communism". Both impossible in a human world.

The market is a global phenomenon. Investors and traders can serve the citizens of whatever country they wish with their investment. And therein lies the problem: high-wage, high-cost, deeply indebted Ireland is at the mercy of the global flow of capital and investment, and the odds are more against us than with us.

And thats the problem with the free market as ive stated. Globalisation has undermined it. Investors will go to countries with the cheapest workforce and production costs. The fact that these economies are built on human misery is irrelevant. The imbalance is as a result of inhuman wages, tax evasion, illegal production, and countefeit in many emerging countries, especially China.

Are you aware that only one in three Chinese products entering the port of Naples (ie Europe) are accounted for tax paying purposes? That for every chinese product in Europe there are 2 more with identical shipping records and Serial numbers elsewheer in Europe???

Parity needs to be achived by bringing human rights and ethical trading to a common standard globally. Not by reducing our citizens to serfs to fulfill some fanciful feree market theory which doesnt account for and respect basic human life. THis is closer tahn you think. Once basic ethical workers rights are established in China, things will develop quickly.

We need foreign investment to survive; but we won't get much foreign investment if we insist that the proceeds of that investment be directed to our public servants and welfare recipients. Investors will just look to other countries instead.

We will get plenty of foreign investment by investing in education and infrastructure, especialy electronic infrastructure.

Having an archaic education system that 19th century teachers could teach in a creaking copper broadband infrastruture will attract no-one: no matter how many of our poorer citizens you send under the poverty line.

Bringing down the standard of living by stupidly slashing public services is another blunt and regressive strategy. Obliterating the front line workforce is hardly going to solve the culture of poor management in the public sector?
And why is this management paid 20 times the rate of front line workers in some institutions. Why isnt this highlighted by our esteemed and well payed media thinkers in RTE? Why has no-one highlighted the blatant tax-evasion culture by broadcasters in that institution?

Im no supporter of Sinn Fein but their idea to cap pay at €100 although too excessive is thinking along the right lines.

Attention needs also to turn to private sector professionals who are fleecing public sector institutions. Perhaps putting more public sector workers in positions to enforce regulation and tackle this would return a few billion?

With regards to your points about fiberoptic broadband and working from home, I've been working from home for many years using a standard DSL connection and occasionally even dial-up. Many other people could do similarly if only their employers would permit it, because most so-called knowledge workers' lives revolve around e-mail, spreadsheets, Word documents, PowerPoint presentations, and the like, applications that do not require the super-fast bandwidth you are suggesting. However, employers are still largely wedded to the traditional culture of the brick-and-mortar office. The current prevailing culture of work is the limitation, not the technology itself.

That is complete nonsense. The system cannot withstand even increase of 5% in work days from home. If you took even 3% of traffic out of commercial premises and into the infrastructure it would collapse. Suggesting that next generation broadband is unnecessary is beyond ridiculous.

It is ironic that you slight the brick and mortar mentality and yet use it yourself. Your example assumes a brick and mortar head office at some location. You dont realise taht how we do business and work is already changing. In the coming years expertise will be valued more and more. There wont be as many traditional jobs, rather a worker will take a series of individial jobs or contracts off companies from anywhere in the globe. If you have a copper infrastructure you dont make the start line. Your countries workers dont get employed.

There are 4000 secondary schools with some sort of internet connection in this state. When 78 schools were given 100mg speed they quickly acccounted for 25% of all traffic. There is a revolution in how we do business and how we educate our children coming. We can easily be leaders

We can invest 500million in it and be in the leading group of countries or wait until its forced upon us and be among the last trying to catch up on poor market share for another century.

Public investment now insures the first.

Your free market is not selfless enough to achieve this, and sowill make us last.

Duke Leonal Felmet · 24-11-2011 1:51pm

How is a free market impossible? Perhaps not feasible (as in, practical), but certainly possible. Just remove the government and state.

I look forward to the misconceptions of the above statement.

Socialist Sweden, Norway vs the rest...

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