Socialist Sweden, Norway vs the rest...

zero_hope

I've been reading what the pundits on this site have been saying about capitalism vs socialism. According to them the more market based economies you have the better these countries should perform. I guess this is why countries such as Sweden and Norway are going down the drain while countries such as Ireland, USA and UK with much less regulation are going down the drain.

O wait... Seems like reality is getting in the way of these pundits theories... but remember folks when the map and reality differs we should always follow the map.

Permabear

This post has been deleted.

Liam Byrne

Shhhhh, OP!!! Greedy capitalism is the new bible, and nothing is worthwhile unless it makes obscene wages and profits!

The New World Order will not countenance altruism of any sort.

Resistance is futile!

zero_hope

Permabear wrote: »

This post had been deleted.

What you are saying is that since GDP per capita is higher in Ireland, people in Ireland are enjoying a higher standard of living?

Have you been to Sweden and compared it to Ireland with your own eyes?

zero_hope

Liam Byrne wrote: »

Shhhhh, OP!!! Greedy capitalism is the new bible, and nothing is worthwhile unless it makes obscene wages and profits!

The New World Order will not countenance altruism of any sort.

Resistance is futile!

Yup, free health care, free education, cheap childcare etc. My god Sweden is a socialist hellhole!:D

Poverty is also rampant in Norway due to socialism.

wiseguy

zero_hope wrote: »

What you are saying is that since GDP per capita is higher in Ireland, people in Ireland are enjoying a higher standard of living?

Have you been to Sweden and compared it to Ireland with your own eyes?

Well Ireland does rank higher than Sweden in the HDI index, so yes yes we do.

zero_hope wrote: »

Poverty is also rampant in Norway due to socialism.

As for Norway, when you are sitting on a 500 billion wealth fund build on natural resource extraction, socialism sure comes easy, only if we can somehow tap into all that nonexistent oil of the west coast somehow.

zero_hope wrote: »

Yup, free health care, free education, cheap childcare etc. My god Sweden is a socialist hellhole!:

There is no such thing as free lunch, wealth doesnt grow on trees, unless you happen to find yourself sitting on an oilfield.

zero_hope

wiseguy wrote: »

Well Ireland does rank higher than Sweden in the HDI index, so yes yes we do.

As for Norway, when you are sitting on a 500 billion wealth fund build on natural resource extraction, socialism sure comes easy, only if we can somehow tap into all that nonexistent oil of the west coast somehow.

Have you been to Sweden and compared things with your own eyes and made up your own mind? If you haven't those numbers don't mean a thing.

wiseguy

zero_hope wrote: »

Have you been to Sweden and compared things with your own eyes and made up your own mind? If you haven't those numbers don't mean a thing.

Yes I have, have you?

edit: is this what the standards in this forum have fallen to? facts and figures are waved away by "seeing with own eyes" rhethoric? pathethic

melekalikimaka

you cant compare things so simply... thread does not compute

zero_hope

wiseguy wrote: »

Yes I have, have you?

I am fluent in Swedish so yes, yes I have. The amount of people with teeth missing in Ireland is shocking. Rarely did I see people with teeth missing in Sweden.

Building standards are much higher in Sweden because there they have something called building codes and they are properly enforced. It's something Ireland should try sometime. Accomodation in Sweden is cheaper and of higher quality than in Ireland.

Having a nasal polyp removed will not cost you a fortune in Sweden whereas in Ireland you will have to pay a doctor €50 just for him to tell you to buy a useless nasal spray. I would not want to think what the actual surgery would cost.

Maybe we should speak Swedish to each other to see who knows more about Sweden?

melekalikimaka

zero_hope wrote: »

I
Maybe we should speak Swedish to each other to see who knows more about Sweden?

my gf is norwegian and my aunt is finnish and i can assure you its not all rainbows and lollipops. I have been over many times to both places and have friends from both countries.

wiseguy

melekalikimaka wrote: »

you cant compare things so simply... thread does not compute

When facts and figures are irellevant, computation becomes difficult

Sure who needs scientific method and facts:
"The sun rotates around the earth, see with your own eyes and make up your own mind" :rolleyes:

or lets take a Creationist approach:

"Have you seen natural selection with your own eyes and made up your own mind?" :rolleyes:

CiaranC

You are wasting your time OP, our happy capitalist friends have settled on their story that it is centre left governments who have destroyed the world economy, nothing to do with capitalist greed at all. They are worse than any crusty pinko camped on Dame Street, they have their world view and nothing can shake it.

melekalikimaka

wiseguy wrote: »

"Have you been to natural selection with your own eyes and made up your own mind?" :rolleyes:

you manner of debate irritates me. i wish not to continue. you win

wiseguy

melekalikimaka wrote: »

you manner of debate irritates me. i wish not to continue. you win

The manner the OP started and continued this thread irritates me, sorry for pointing out how silly his posts sounds when put under a light.

zero_hope

CiaranC wrote: »

You are wasting your time OP, our happy capitalist friends have settled on their story that it is centre left governments who have destroyed the world economy, nothing to do with capitalist greed at all. They are worse than any crusty pinko camped on Dame Street, they have their world view and nothing can shake it.

The notion that you can't have a thriving economy in high tax countries with proper employment regulation is absurd. These rightwing libertarian types or whatever they like to call themselves choose to ignore reality.

Ireland is a low tax country with very lax employment laws compared to Sweden.

In Sweden they have Volvo, Abb, Ikea, SKF, also Swedish banks didn't go belly up as they did in Ireland.

What does Ireland have to show for it's low tax economy, basically Ryan Air and Bono.

As Barack Obama once said, you are entitled to your own opinions but you are not entitled to your own facts.

steddyeddy

Capitalisim properly regulated is excellent, unregulated capitalisim is not capitalisim. Ireland or greece for example had unregualted capitalisim.

CiaranC

zero_hope wrote: »

The notion that you can't have a thriving economy in high tax countries with proper employment regulation is absurd. These rightwing libertarian types or whatever they like to call themselves choose to ignore reality.

Ireland is a low tax country with very lax employment laws compared to Sweden.

In Sweden they have Volvo, Abb, Ikea, SKF, also Swedish banks didn't go belly up as they did in Ireland.

What does Ireland have to show for it's low tax economy, basically Ryan Air and Bono.

As Barack Obama once said, you are entitled to your own opinions but you are not entitled to your own facts.

Even worse, their doublethink means that as soon as any measure they and their five friends who have read Ayn Rand dream up fails, it automatically becomes "socialist" in itself.

And the best one is "the system wasnt capitalist enough" mantra, akin to the morally bankrupt "it wasnt real communism" defence of Stalin and Maos failures by 1970 Arthur Scargill types.

I really despise these people.

latenia

CiaranC wrote: »

And the best one is "the system wasnt capitalist enough" mantra, akin to the morally bankrupt "it wasnt real communism" defence of Stalin and Maos failures by 1970 Arthur Scargill types.

I really despise these people.

That is the truth though. Real capitalism bears little relation to the financial chicanery that got us into this mess. An outfit like Goldman Sachs or one of the myriad rent-seekers and middle-men stalking the markets merely siphons off the money created by the likes of Microsoft or General Motors without leaving behind any of the benefits such as job creation.

People from anywhere in the EU are free to go to Scandinavia to live and work if they wish but I'm guessing that the amount taking the opposite course to Ireland and elsewhere is far greater.

CiaranC

latenia wrote: »

That is the truth though. Real capitalism bears little relation to the financial chicanery that got us into this mess.

You are talking about Microsoft who created illegal monopolies all over the world, and GM who failed and was bailed out by the US government? Not great examples there.

"Real capitalism" is a utopian fiction imagined by partisans and zealots. World governments were convinced by the economic right to loosen regulation just enough for the banks and the markets to destroy themselves out of pure greed in just a couple of short decades. Of course they now deny this and claim its the fault of some "socialist" bogeyman. I can only imagine what true, unregulated, unfettered capitalism would do to the world.

It seems perfectly apparent to me that the muddled form of "democratic socialism" with regulated capitalism practised in much of Europe provides the best quality of life for the actual human beings involved, regardless to where countries appear in OECD lists (which include trillions of dollars of Goldman Sachs type cash btw.)

Dannyboy83

zero_hope wrote: »

The notion that you can't have a thriving economy in high tax countries with proper employment regulation is absurd.
Ireland is a low tax country with very lax employment laws compared to Sweden.

We're not a low tax country anymore, and Sweden has always been noteworthy in Ireland for it's efficiency/excellent provision of services. It's frequently the benchmark.

In Sweden they have Volvo, Abb, Ikea, SKF, also Swedish banks didn't go belly up as they did in Ireland.
What does Ireland have to show for it's low tax economy, basically Ryan Air and Bono.

That's only part of the puzzle tho.
You must also ask - what did Ireland have to show for it's high tax economy?
The results were even worse - look back to the 80s.

Not dismissing your points, I do think your arguments have some merit.
I don't think you're being that realistic in the application of the theory tho............You can't walk into Saudi Arabia and make Christianity the state religion & You can't walk into the Republic of Ireland and make people trust the state.

In Ireland, we are raised from day one with the understanding that the country is run by gombeens and incompetents. It's part of the Irish character.

We learn from a young adulthood to expect dismal performance in the provision of services. One of the few notably efficient services are the people who collect the money (revenue).

Let me give you an example.

In 2003, I applied for my first driving test.
I sat it in 2004. I failed it. I reapplied immediately.
It took 14 months to get another appointment, so it was early 2006 and I had already move house in the intervening 14 months. I contacted them to update my address, they still sent it to the wrong address - missed that obviously.
Had to reapply.
Waited another 13 months.
Summer of 2007 - after 3 years waiting from my first test- I resat the test.
Passed the test, took 4 years total, an average of 1 test per 2 years.

By about now - Irish people will be queuing up to tell me I'm some feckin eejit - why didn't I try to jump the queue?
"sher everybody does it! How else are you supposed to get on like? do you know anyone inside? I think I've an uncle who might be able to sort you out!"

And that's the way it works in Ireland.
When it comes to any state service - You have to use pull. You have to pull strokes. If you try to do it by the book in this country, you'll probably be waiting a long, long time.

During the passport crisis in 2010, my girlfriend's mother died and I had to urgently get a passport to travel. In that case, I was able to use some pull and they delivered, and rapidly so.

When my girlfriend lost her job in 2008, I was paying out €1000 per month in various taxes, while the government were busy inventing new laws which prevented her from being able to claim social welfare and me from being able to claim her tax credits.
When she tried to get a Fas course, they signed her up to a course on the wrong side of the country (took them 6 months to do it).
When she eventually got a Fas course - she did it, but since was refused JSA, they also refused to pay her for the Fas course. LOL!
(I can laugh now because we're no longer at the mercy of the Irish state)

Despite the notions of grandeur that some people may have developed during the Celtic Pyramid years, when it comes to the provision of services by the state - not only are they incompetent but they grossly overcharge.

So - armed with this knowledge of how it works in Ireland - you have to ask yourself - how could you possibly hope to apply the Swedish system to this country?
It would require total reform of our state services <- that's simply not going to happen.



In a country like Sweden, I would like to hand over whatever money necessary and just let the state look after all these provisions for me.

In a country like Ireland, you simply cannot take that risk.....the safe thing to do is to try keep as much money back from the state as you can, because they will not provide for you, regardless of how much they take.

zero_hope

Sorry for insulting Irish people but I truly feel sorry for you Dannyboy being stuck in your third world ****hole of a country. You should just leave and move to a normal country.

Duke Leonal Felmet

What a terrible, ill thought out thread.

smurgen

i for one think it's a interesting thread. i'm living in switzerland at the moment and would consider it sociliast in some ways,even though it has a reputation as one of the most capatalistic in the world. for example if you work in the country for 18 months you are entitled to up to 80 per cent of your salary as social welfare. also people who work in low skill jobs such as cleaners receive a high level of pay, around 25 chf per hour. there is a high standard of living for all. services and admin provided by government and private companies are second to none. the transport system there makes irelands looks like a farce and costs just as cheap to use.

Permabear

This post has been deleted.

Duke Leonal Felmet

Why is Kuwait so well off? Clearly the product of free market principles, with it being regarded as one of the most free market economies in the region. Yay for capitalism!


FFS...

T runner

Permabear wrote: »

This post had been deleted.

The Swedish welfare state wasnt dismantled, it was reformed. Equality, childcare, social welfare are certainly more advanced than Ireland and at least on a par with any European country.

In other words, if you want to wreck an economy, Swedish-style socialism is the way to go. Sweden is still struggling to recover from that period in its economic history.

Swedish style socialism is alive, well and robust judging by their unblemished emergence from teh global crises.

What were this politicians politics? What was the context of this statement. He may have been saying this to undermine political rivals.

But you seem to be holding up Ireland as an example of a free-market economy, when in fact Ireland has a dysfunctional economy distorted in every possible way by government and unions. I don't really get your argument here.

The bank bailout was a distortion by the free market facilitated by a compliant government. We all saw palinly the type of instruments of destruction your "free market" produced in the motherland of capitalism.

The economy is there to serve the citizens of a state. Its only a free market model if everyone palys by teh same rules. No rules implies that the free market will unchecked be of ultimate benefit to the citizens of a state.

We now know this to be irrational and untrue.


If you look at NG broadband in Ireland. This is as vital as electricity in the 20th century, American railways in the 18th century, Industrila revolution canals.

Installing this fibre would mean that peak road use would fall by 5% in teh enxt 5 years (work from home, coffices etc), 1st, 2nd, 3rd level education would have a platform for multimedia education, distance education and not the 18th century teacher classroom, lecture, books format we still use.

Workers working from teh cloud will reuce office space costs boosting competitives.

Irish workers can take on jobs from any part of the globe and complete the contarcted work from their home.


Will your private market provide this? No??

Why not?? Because it doesnt pay them.

500 million inputted by government will sort it. The returns, a potential 1% GDP in teh short term.

A swedish model can and does facilitate this type of investment. And if you dont invest in this, you can forget about competitive advantage in teh 21st century.

AhSureTisGrand

CiaranC wrote: »

And the best one is "the system wasnt capitalist enough" mantra, akin to the morally bankrupt "it wasnt real communism" defence of Stalin and Maos failures by 1970 Arthur Scargill types.

But it wasn't real communism. Whether or not real communism is at all achievable (and moral) is another matter. But under these regimes poor people starved to death while cronies got fatter and fatter

Duke Leonal Felmet

AhSureTisGrand wrote: »

CiaranC wrote: »

And the best one is "the system wasnt capitalist enough" mantra, akin to the morally bankrupt "it wasnt real communism" defence of Stalin and Maos failures by 1970 Arthur Scargill types.

But it wasn't real communism. Whether or not real communism is at all achievable (and moral) is another matter. But under these regimes poor people starved to death while cronies got fatter and fatter

Bailing the banks out isn't 'real capitalism', either.

AhSureTisGrand

Duke Leonal Felmet wrote: »

Bailing the banks out isn't 'real capitalism', either.

Exactly

Duke Leonal Felmet

AhSureTisGrand wrote: »

Duke Leonal Felmet wrote: »

Bailing the banks out isn't 'real capitalism', either.

Exactly

I love it when angry socialists like RBB III or that wan from Swords say 'They took the risk, and should take the losses'

My, my! You are sounding very 'Austrian' there, Sir Barrett!

Tipp Man

Correct me if i'm wrong but didn't Sweden have a banking collapse (similar to our own) in the 1990's based on a property bubble?

Didn't Sweden's GDP take a big tumble in that time?
didn't their unemployment go through the roof?
Didn't they have to implement budget cuts to get some kind of handle on their out of control government spending?

Or did i just dream all that up?

Swings and roundabouts - they suffered in the 1990's we started to prosper. We are suffering now whilst they prosper (or at least remain stable).

Of course the common denominator in both situations is governments spending way more than they should be and cheap credit leading to property bubbles

Permabear

This post has been deleted.

zero_hope

America has a much freer market than Sweden and a higher GDP yet on a casual stroll through the streets in Seattle you see bums, drug addicts, morbidly obese people everywhere you look.

I prefer a bit lower GDP if the tradeoff is a healthier people with a longer life expectancy.

I also prefer living in a country where fries are not considered to be vegetables.

SamHarris

zero_hope wrote: »

I've been reading what the pundits on this site have been saying about capitalism vs socialism. According to them the more market based economies you have the better these countries should perform. I guess this is why countries such as Sweden and Norway are going down the drain while countries such as Ireland, USA and UK with much less regulation are going down the drain.

O wait... Seems like reality is getting in the way of these pundits theories... but remember folks when the map and reality differs we should always follow the map.

Em... Sweden is very much not socialst. Indeed the last 2 decades of unprecedented prosperity were ushered in by careful liberation.

Norway sits on more oil per head than anywhere else on earth. If my neighbour sat on a diamon m ine and could then spend alot of money on luxuries, I would not assume it is because of his administerial acumen, as you seem to.

SamHarris

zero_hope wrote: »

America has a much freer market than Sweden and a higher GDP yet on a casual stroll through the streets in Seattle you see bums, drug addicts, morbidly obese people everywhere you look.

I prefer a bit lower GDP if the tradeoff is a healthier people with a longer life expectancy.

I also prefer living in a country where fries are not considered to be vegetables.

It was pizza and very much a political than gastonomic choice.

Go to Conneticut then.

Suryavarman

There is a reason why Sweden is booming. Something to do with a large increase in the money supply. It's seems to have contributed towards a housing bubble as well. Where have we heard all this before?

SamHarris

You really should have done some research before you posted Sweden, it certainly is very far from a socialist economy. It is an urban myth I have heard many times before, and was surprised when I started reading the economist and they often used it as an example of careful privatisation that pays major dividends.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economy_of_Sweden

"According to OECD, deregulation, globalization, and technology sector growth have been key productivity drivers.[22"

"Sweden's industry is overwhelmingly in private control; unlike some other industrialized Western countries, such as Austria, Italy or Finland, state owned enterprises were always of minor importance."

The only thing socialst about it is high taxes and a large social safety net, if that is socialism to you and not temepered Capitalism - given where the ownership and productivity comes from - then you have no idea what your talking about.

Norway IS much more socialist than the rest of the western world. It is also the most rescource rich countries on earth per head of population. Not exactly a model everyone can follow, Im afraid Its economy is growing at .4%- hardly booming considering oil prices.

The entire premise of this thread is flawed on one side and just untrue on the other, Ill be going now.

zero_hope

Suryavarman wrote: »

There is a reason why Sweden is booming. Something to do with a large increase in the money supply. It's seems to have contributed towards a housing bubble as well. Where have we heard all this before?

Yes, I do agree with you that house prices in Sweden are unsustainable at the current level but in Sweden they have taken steps to reign in on speculation. Current rules limit mortgages to 85% of the market value of the home a person wants to buy. http://www.thelocal.se/31700/20110128/ Now there are ways to get around this, you can get a cash loan to cover the 15% deposit but that is at a much higher interest rate. Unlike Ireland Sweden is taking steps to reign in on speculation whereas Fianna Fail did everything it could to pour petrol on the flames.

SamHarris

Wait. Im kind of curious. Now that it has been pointed out to you that Sweedens prosperity, according to all scources, was its deregulation and indeed its embrace of the capatilist system - given the tone of your first post, using it as an example that should be followed, are you prepared to admit how wrong your ideology is and has been proven to be time and again?

I await with baited breath...

zero_hope

SamHarris wrote: »

Wait. Im kind of curious. Now that it has been pointed out to you that Sweedens prosperity, according to all scources, was its deregulation and indeed its embrace of the capatilist system - given the tone of your first post, using it as an example that should be followed, are you prepared to admit how wrong your ideology is and has been proven to be time and again?

I await with baited breath...

Sweden was prosperous in the seventies and eighties, had less unemployment and much more generous welfare spending back then and yet it was the envy of the world.

Duke Leonal Felmet

zero_hope wrote: »

SamHarris wrote: »

Wait. Im kind of curious. Now that it has been pointed out to you that Sweedens prosperity, according to all scources, was its deregulation and indeed its embrace of the capatilist system - given the tone of your first post, using it as an example that should be followed, are you prepared to admit how wrong your ideology is and has been proven to be time and again?

I await with baited breath...

Sweden was prosperous in the seventies and eighties, had less unemployment and much more generous welfare spending back then and yet it was the envy of the world.

Let me help you with the backpedalling.


*pedal, pedal, pedal*

SamHarris

zero_hope wrote: »

I've been reading what the pundits on this site have been saying about capitalism vs socialism. According to them the more market based economies you have the better these countries should perform. I guess this is why countries such as Sweden and Norway are going down the drain while countries such as Ireland, USA and UK with much less regulation are going down the drain.

zero_hope wrote: »

Sweden was prosperous in the seventies and eighties, had less unemployment and much more generous welfare spending back then and yet it was the envy of the world.

O wait... Seems like reality is getting in the way of these pundits theories... but remember folks when the map and reality differs we should always follow the map. :rolleyes:

SamHarris

Further claiming Norway does well because of its social and economic policies is like claiming the Saudis do the same.

It is not the power of their education, their innovation or their economic accumen that makes them head of alot of quality of life surveys - it is there massive rescouces.

Permabear

This post has been deleted.

Duke Leonal Felmet

Permabear wrote: »

This post had been deleted.

This was during the period when its GDP per capita was tumbling from 4th in the world to 18th, right?[/Quote]

hehehe, oh dear.

Tabnabs

SamHarris wrote: »

Further claiming Norway does well because of its social and economic policies is like claiming the Saudis do the same.

It is not the power of their education, their innovation or their economic accumen that makes them head of alot of quality of life surveys - it is there massive rescouces.

Actually you're completely wide of the mark. The Norwegians have always known that the oil is a limited pot of gold and their education, innovation, economic acumen and quality of life is all far in excess of Irish and most other countries worldwide.

I can think of quite a few successful Norwegian companies in Ireland for example, but struggle to think of any Irish companies in Norway.

The oil fund is more like a silver spoon in the mouth than a fat wallet in their pocket.

SamHarris

Tabnabs wrote: »

Actually you're completely wide of the mark. The Norwegians have always known that the oil is a limited pot of gold and their education, innovation, economic acumen and quality of life is all far in excess of Irish and most other countries worldwide.

I can think of quite a few successful Norwegian companies in Ireland for example, but struggle to think of any Irish companies in Norway.

The oil fund is more like a silver spoon in the mouth than a fat wallet in their pocket.

No. Its 25% of the GDP. Thats many times more than what Ireland has to cut after the crash. It is the pillar of the entire system, absolutly no doubt about that - not merely a silver spoon. More than half of what they spend on social services.

Their innovation is around 20th in the world. According to indexes. Not bad at all but very far from explaining their wealth. And thats taking into account the lack of credit in most Western countries the last few years which has hammered innovation everywhere -the US,as an example, slipped from 1st to 7th but will almost certainly climb back, it always does, once money begins to flow again. If you compare cash flows to levels of innovation Norway is not in the same league as other western European nations. One of the prices paid for an amazing social system.

karma_

I think the major problem that libertarians have with Norway is that it maintains control over it's own oil production and uses that money for the benefit of the state, they would much rather have the Norwegians sell off their majority share and have the profits going into the coffers of private industry. If only Ireland had a natural resource that it could exploit in a similar fashion... oh... wait.


Also, how is that not a form of socialism?

zero_hope

Permabear wrote: »

This post had been deleted.

I am pretty sure Sweden's big tumble happened in the nineties when they had a rightwing government with Mr Carl Bildt as prime minister and Mrs Anne Wible who was minister of finance from 1991-1994... For some reason this was the period when Sweden came crashing down from the sky above. Huge amounts of jobs were lost during this time and employment levels NEVER recovered to what they were in the seventies and eighties and this was during a time when a centre right government was managing things...

karma_

zero_hope wrote: »

I am pretty sure Sweden's big tumble happened in the nineties when they had a rightwing government with Mr Carl Bildt as prime minister and Mrs Anne Wible who was minister of finance from 1991-1994... For some reason this was the period when Sweden came crashing down from the sky above. Huge amounts of jobs were lost during this time and employment levels NEVER recovered to what they were in the seventies and eighties and this was during a time when a centre right government was managing things...

This does not fit the posters narrative, as we all know, recession is always caused by socialism, nothing else.