Saorview to change Mt Leinster channel

Boggy

Just spotted this today, sorry if already posted

Copied from

http://www.saorview.ie/news/2572/

CHANNEL FREQUENCY CHANGE AT SOME TRANSMITTERS

CHANNEL FREQUENCY CHANGE AT SOME TRANSMITTERS AS SAORVIEW
PROGRESSES TOWARDS FINAL CONFIGURATION TO THE DIGITAL NETWORK

As work continues to extend SAORVIEW coverage to 98% of the Irish population, technical changes will be made at 3 of the 51 transmission sites. The frequency channels which carry SAORVIEW need to be changed to extend and improve coverage and to vacate channels above channel 60 at analogue switchover. These frequency changes will take place on October 24th 2012.

This technical change may require some viewers to carry out a rescan of their SAORVIEW receivers. A rescan is a relatively simple procedure, very similar to the initial set-up. Viewers receiving from the following transmission sites are most likely to need to make this minor adjustment, but not before October 24th 2012.

1. Clermont Carn, serving Louth, Meath, North Dublin, Cavan, Monaghan, and Down, Armagh, Antrim
2. Mount Leinster, serving Wexford, Carlow, Kilkenny, South Wicklow, Tipperary, Waterford. The changes at Mount Leinster have also been prompted by feedback and requests for same from the main professional aerial installation bodies and are designed to overcome the problem of occasional interference from the UK transmitter Preseli, Wales.
3. Holywell Hill, serving Donegal, and Derry, Tyrone
More information is available at www.rtenl.ie and updates will be available throughout October 2012 as the changes occur.

bmaxi

Sounds like it might be good news for those of us living in coastal areas of Wexford, I presume they could use Channel 39 and up the power. Not for twelve months though :mad:

Ronnie Raygun

I wonder how many group B aerials have been installed for Mt. L.?

@Boggy, nice to see you found something worthy of posting about after 10 1/2 years!

Mayo Exile

Link to document at RTENL:

http://www.rtenl.ie/wp-content/uploads/2011/11/SAORVIEW-at-ASO-Rev-1.0.pdf

After 24th October 2012:

Mount Leinster PSB1 changes from ch 45 to ch 23
Mount Leinster PSB2 changes from ch 39 to ch 26

Clermont Carn PSB1 changes from ch 53 to ch 52
Clermont carn PSB2 changes from ch 57 to ch 56

Holywell Hill PSB2 changes from ch 25 to ch 33.

Also it says in that document that "no timeframe or launch date has been set at the moment for the second Public Service multiplex."

firkin

Is this for f*cking real ???

It's less than a year to the analogue switch off and they still haven't settled on the frequencies ?? !

These guys are imbeciles. :mad:


Edit:In my state of disblief I forgot to thank the OP for posting this. So thanks! And thanks to Mayo Exile for the link the RTENL document.

watty

ASO ALWAYS means re-tuning. Many UK areas had MULTIPLE retunes.

Here is there is only once at ASO (24th October 2012).

Ireland Only
Holywell Hill, Clermont Carn (increase power and new channels are same Group)
Mt Leinster is a group change B to A (45 - > 23) ONCE. This will stop interference in Wales and in Ireland.

RTENL had advised Mt. Leinster reception to be on Wideband aerial. Now you know why.

The Cush

Mayo Exile wrote: »

After 24th October 2012:

Mount Leinster PSB1 changes from ch 45 to ch 23
Mount Leinster PSB2 changes from ch 39 to ch 26

Reusing the existing Group A analogue frequencies for DTT at ASO.

Many viewers will have upgraded their analogue Group A aerials to wideband to receive Saorview and will have to do so until the end of Oct next year.

The Saorview coverage checker has been updated to relect the Oct 2012 changes to Mux1 at Mt Leinster and Clermont Carn.

MOUNT LEINSTER
Channel: 45, changing to 23 at Oct 2012
Polarization: H

CLERMONT CARN
Channel: 53, changing to 52 at Oct 2012
Polarization: V

watty

Ronnie Raygun wrote: »

I wonder how many group B aerials have been installed for Mt. L.?

@Boggy, nice to see you found something worthy of posting about after 10 1/2 years!

People were told to install Wideband for Mt Leinster in the RTE Brochure.

Actually a Group A will work better on Ch45 than a Group B on Ch 23

So if a Wideband isn't good enough, install a Group A.

Mayo Exile

Ronnie Raygun wrote: »

I wonder how many group B aerials have been installed for Mt. L.?

How many indeed......

CC and Holywell Hill are at least changing within their respective aerial groups, but the change at Mt L after 24th October 2012 means many with group A aerials for current analogue output from there will be ok after this date. They may as well stick with analogue until switchoff in Oct 2012. No point in getting a group B aerial just for 11 months use out of it, unless people install a wideband aerial if they want DTT now and after ASO.

watty

It's incredibly small amount of changes and only once compared with the UK Musical Chairs of DSO.

The Cush

firkin wrote: »

Is this for f*cking real ???

It's less than a year to the analogue switch off and they still haven't settled on the frequencies ?? !

These guys are imbeciles. :mad:

Retunes at 3 transmitters isn't a great burden.

The UK has been retuning since 2008 and will continue for a year after ASO over there, into late 2013 clearing UHF channels 61 & 62 affecting 7 million households.

The Cush

Now that all concerned appear to have agreed the final configuration for the Irish transmitters maybe they'll now publish the actual ERPs for the 51 sites at ASO.

bmaxi

Ronnie Raygun wrote:

@Boggy, nice to see you found something worthy of posting about after 10 1/2 years!

"They also serve, who only stand and wait".......John Milton

The Cush

Regarding the other 2 retunes Holywell Hill moving Mux 2 from Ch 25 to Ch 33 to avoid possible conflict with the Brougher Mt HD Mux on Ch 25 post ASO? Holywell Hill Ch 33 is within the 600MHz band Ofcom will be auctioning off next year.

Why was Clermont Carn moved from Ch 53/57 to Ch 52/56, to avoid potential conflict with Truskmore when CC goes full power at ASO?

watty

The Cush wrote: »

Now that all concerned appear to have agreed the final configuration for the Irish transmitters maybe they'll now publish the actual ERPs for the 51 sites at ASO.

I've asked.
I'm also asked that question very often.

watty

All of Europe is only sharing 39 channels. Our border co-ordination issues are minor (Wales and NI) compared with many places.

Gerry Wicklow

I really like the "...been prompted by feedback and requests for same from the main professional aerial installation bodies and are designed to overcome the problem of occasional interference from the UK transmitter Preseli, Wales."
In simple terms OFCOM jumping up and down.

Needless to say I'm one happy bunny to be able to look forward to reliable "Dave" etc:D:D:D

egal

This looks like good news for us here in Omagh who would be likely to get best reception from Holywell, since, after switchover, channels 30 and 33 will no longer be in use at Brougher Mountain. BUT, is there any news yet on the frequency for the Brougher RTE mini mux? Possible conflict there.

The Cush

egal wrote: »

is there any news yet on the frequency for the Brougher RTE mini mux? Possible conflict there.

Nothing yet but I'd guess they'll try to avoid any possible conflict.

lucernarian

I personally welcome this decision both for technical and coverage considerations, and the common benefits between each side of the sea for cultural reasons.

It's unfortunate that they did not advise of the change sooner than 2012 as it would have saved mine and I suspect many others' blood pressure if we knew Group A aerials would still serve for reception adequately. But the effects of this delay should be minor in most cases?

I'm not sure how watty would suspect Group A aerials are better at ch 45 than Group B aerials are at 23. Any gain curves I've seen for yagis show a much steeper decline in gain at shorter wavelengths than designed for, compared to longer wavelengths. Could you elaborate on your point watty?

I suspect the issues with Clermont Carn stem from Llanddona being co-channel on two PSB muxes. There have been reports of occasional interference on days with good weather.

The craic with Cairn Hill and Armagh will be interesting at DSO. The change at Holywell Hill looks like a good call to stop the inevitable problems with two PSB muxes co-channel and relatively close to each other.


One other thing, will the coverage at Mt. Leinster (i.e. the 61dBuV contour) be adjusted slightly due to the use of lower group A frequencies? Going from 666MHz to 510~MHz is a noticeable difference in propagation.

FRIENDO

This is great news for a large part of Co. Wexford and surrounding areas, using Ch45 most people would have had to change to a new UHF aerial on analogue switch off.
Many people may not have been able to afford to do this.
Leaving the UHF signal on a group A aerial is the correct decision by RTEnl.

elsie1b

If digital terrestrial takes off and in the future there proves to be a need for a further multiplex ,what choices of frequencies would then be available to RTENL ,given the frequency changes just announced for Mount Leinster ?

FRIENDO

Gerry Wicklow wrote: »

I really like the "...been prompted by feedback and requests for same from the main professional aerial installation bodies and are designed to overcome the problem of occasional interference from the UK transmitter Preseli, Wales."
In simple terms OFCOM jumping up and down.

Needless to say I'm one happy bunny to be able to look forward to reliable "Dave" etc:D:D:D

Hopefully we get Challenge back as well, the kids in my house are big fans. We lost Challenge in the last re-tune two months ago.

I think its also good news for the public and the main professional aerial installation bodies, as it will stop many rogue installers getting involved in making a quick book in changing aerials.
Like most parts of the country the people of the south east may not have to get new aerials in 2012, they may just need a saorview tv or STB.

watty

elsie1b wrote: »

If digital terrestrial takes off and in the future there proves to be a need for a further multiplex ,what choices of frequencies would then be available to RTENL ,given the frequency changes just announced for Mount Leinster ?

Plenty due to no Analogue in Ireland.

Three Multiplexes nationally is no problem at all.
Four is slightly trickier, but feasible (due to loss of 790MHz to 862MHz).

The Cush

elsie1b wrote: »

If digital terrestrial takes off and in the future there proves to be a need for a further multiplex ,what choices of frequencies would then be available to RTENL ,given the frequency changes just announced for Mount Leinster ?

According to Comreg, in recent documents, planning for the 4 commercial multiplexes is complete and they were in discussions regarding spectrum for a possible 7th and 8th mux. This was expected to be complete before the end of 2011. Following yesterdays announcement the planning and coordination may be completed.

The spectrum requirements for DTT in Ireland have also been iscussed with Ofcom. ComReg has provisionally agreed the necessary channel changes for DTT with the UK. ComReg expects the details of this to be concluded before the end of 2011 such that the spectrum requirements for national DTT, in particular any future spectrum requirement for commercial DTT, can be fulfilled using UHF channels 21 to 59 (470 – 782 MHz) only.

Mike 1972

Mayo Exile wrote: »

Clermont Carn PSB1 changes from ch 53 to ch 52 Clermont carn PSB2 changes from ch 57 to ch 56

Could have been my imagination but easnt there some plan mooted a few months back to use these channels for new COM multiplexes from Divis

Mind you any use of channels above 48 by Divis would be insanity (even if there werent any co/adjacent channel clashes) given that there would be diplexing issues with CC

The Cush

Mike 1972 wrote: »

Could have been my imagination but easnt there some plan mooted a few months back to use these channels for new COM multiplexes from Divis

The planned Muxes 7, 8 and 9 are all in the 30's. The first 6 are in the 20's.

firkin

The Cush wrote: »

Retunes at 3 transmitters isn't a great burden.

The UK has been retuning since 2008 and will continue for a year after ASO over there, into late 2013 clearing UHF channels 61 & 62 affecting 7 million households.

It's not that the re-tune is the problem its the fact they're only letting us know now. A couple of months back I very nearly bought a new group B antenna for the house. But complicating factors conspired against me (in my favor as it now turns out) and stopped me.

What annoys me is the crap communication on the topic.

That Ofcom document you reference says they published their intentions in June 2009 that they'd be making those changes at the end of 2012/2013. That's over 3 years of notice from Ofcom.

We barely get 11 months notice and tough if you've already installed an antenna.

The Cush

firkin wrote: »

It's not that the re-tune is the problem its the fact they're only letting us know now. A couple of months back I very nearly bought a new group B antenna for the house. But complicating factors conspired against me (in my favor as it now turns out) and stopped me.

What annoys me is the crap communication on the topic.

As watty said previously RTÉ recommended back in early 2009 a wideband aerial for reception of both analogue and DTT for Mt Leinster and according to Comreg above DTT coordination with the UK is only being finalised now.

If there hadn't been pressure from the public, trade and politicians on the matter I've no doubt Chs 39 and 45 would have continued to be used. Also at the time these were planned in the late 90's the conflicting UK On-Digital multiplexes were encrypted and reception of that multiplex wasn't required.

From the very early stages of planning for DTT in the late 1990’s it became clear that the best solution would be if Mt. Leinster and Preseli shared some channels. That enabled the best fit internally within Ireland, even though it posed challenges for Co. Wexford. The lack of service within the Irish Sea would not be relevant, and the reception of On Digital subscription services within Wexford was also not considered relevant. With a properly aligned aerial, reception of DTT from Mt. Leinster was considered possible even if frequencies were shared with the commercial multiplexes from Preseli.

http://www.dcenr.gov.ie/Communications/Business+and+Technology/Radio+Communications+and+Radio+Spectrum/DTT+Spectrum+Planning.htm

lucernarian

The Cush wrote: »

If there hadn't been pressure from the public, trade and politicians on the matter I've no doubt Chs 39 and 45 would have continued to be used. Also at the time these were planned in the late 90's the conflicting UK On-Digital multiplexes were encrypted and reception of that multiplex wasn't required.

There was an opportunity to change these plans for DTV broadcasts from there during RRC-06 surely?

Though I wouldn't recommend the use of purely Group A aerials for new installs for Mt. Leinster purely because they could use the Group B allocations in the future.

In the same way, using a group C/D is perhaps not the best idea for Three Rock as it's also allocated Group A frequencies. Though group C/D and group W aerials are somewhat similar in performance.

The Cush

To_be_confirmed wrote: »

There was an opportunity to change these plans for DTV broadcasts from there during RRC-06 surely?

If you remember official comment for the first two years or so said once analogue was switched off in Wales that would be the end of overspill into the SE probably because of the lower ERP of the DTT transmitters. Of course that wasn't to be the case and overspill DTT is probably as good as analogue ever was.

That coupled with the loss of the Irish analogue channels next Oct would have caused a serious outcry from the general public probably forced them to reassess the situation.

lucernarian

The Cush wrote: »

If you remember official comment for the first two years or so said once analogue was switched off in Wales that would be the end of overspill into the SE probably because of the lower ERP of the DTT transmitters. Of course that wasn't to be the case and overspill DTT is probably as good as analogue ever was.

That coupled with the loss of the Irish analogue channels next Oct would have caused a serious outcry from the general public probably forced them to reassess the situation.

I'm not sure what sort of official comment existed on this as when the UK planned its switchover, the PSB DTT muxes were to have equivalent coverage to analogue with what, 98% of the UK. Most of the main sites are -7dB down on analogue peak EIRP. The COM muxes are -10dB down so they would have somewhat reduced coverage but certainly overspill coverage would have to be expected. The numbers of people receiving Preseli Freeview in Wexford even before switchover was a sign of things to come.

firkin

The Cush wrote: »

As watty said previously RTÉ recommended back in early 2009 a wideband aerial for reception of both analogue and DTT for Mt Leinster and according to Comreg above DTT coordination with the UK is only being finalised now.

Just Last July the official tuning info on the RTE NL website was way out of date. I archived it on WebCite. http://www.webcitation.org/60Xb90JhZ (Check that date on the WebCite banner!). RTENL were at that time STILL recommending VHF Band III and UHF A for MT Leinster. I had a hunch that was wrong so I email RTE NL and I was told "The group A aerial is recommended for analogue reception, however for DTT we recommend a Group B, or preferably a UHF wide band aerial. "

Having had reception issues with Sorview I read up a bit on it and my understanding was that the Wideband antenna could suffer more interference. As I was having reception issues and as the man specifically said a Group B would do I was going to go for that.

Also I'm sure I read some where (but can't find it now) that the wideband recommendation was for potential future commercial services (along the lines of Boxer TV which don't interest me) .

The Cush wrote: »

If there hadn't been pressure from the public, trade and politicians on the matter I've no doubt Chs 39 and 45 would have continued to be used.

Well what ever the excuse, could they not get their sh*t together and keep the public properly informed.

The Cush

firkin wrote: »

Just Last July the official tuning info on the RTE NL website was way out of date. I archived it on WebCite. http://www.webcitation.org/60Xb90JhZ (Check that date on the WebCite banner!). RTENL were at that time STILL recommending VHF Band III and UHF A for MT Leinster. I had a hunch that was wrong so I email RTE NL and I was told "The group A aerial is recommended for analogue reception, however for DTT we recommend a Group B, or preferably a UHF wide band aerial. "

The analogue tuning information is still valid, there are households that still require analogue tuning information with mixed analogue/Saorview equipment until ASO. UHF wideband aerial has been recommended by RTÉNL for mixed analogue/Saorview since early 2009. I posted the information here at the time.

firkin wrote: »

Also I'm sure I read some where (but can't find it now) that the wideband recommendation was for potential future commercial services (along the lines of Boxer TV which don't interest me).

Wideband UHF aerial was recommended for mixed analogue/Saorview reception. The commercial muxes were in the same band/aerial group as the RTÉ mux.

The original 2008 4 mux plan was RTÉ - Ch 45, Boxer - Chs 39, 42, 49.

firkin wrote: »

could they not get their sh*t together and keep the public properly informed.

We've been saying the same here for years.

lawhec

Interesting that Holywell Hill is now planned to have two post-DSO multiplexes on E30 and E33, If they don't intend to broadcast on E23, E26 and E29 (and that other frequencies are available to use from HH, I know they have an E35 allocation), I wonder if this may allow the COM multiplexes post-DSO from Brougher Mountain to move to these three frequencies, instead of having to share the PSB frequencies with Divis at significantly lower power (2kW) compared to the PSB multiplexes (20kW)? Co-channel will still be a problem as E23, E26 and E29 are planned for COM use at Divis but at half the power (50kW) of the PSB multiplexes (100kW), which would in theory allow a little bit more power available to Brougher's COM transmissions e.g. from 2kW to 4-5kW, reducing the power discrepancies across the six multiplexes?

Mike 1972

The Cush wrote: »

According to Comreg, in recent documents, planning for the 4 commercial multiplexes is complete and they were in discussions regarding spectrum for a possible 7th and 8th mux.

Why

Its never going to happen ?

The Cush

lawhec wrote: »

Interesting that Holywell Hill is now planned to have two post-DSO multiplexes on E30 and E33, If they don't intend to broadcast on E23, E26 and E29 (and that other frequencies are available to use from HH, I know they have an E35 allocation), I wonder if this may allow the COM multiplexes post-DSO from Brougher Mountain to move to these three frequencies, instead of having to share the PSB frequencies with Divis at significantly lower power (2kW) compared to the PSB multiplexes (20kW)?

Holywell Hill's eight DTT allocations at RRC06 were 23, 25, 26, 29, 30, 32, 33, 35.

From what we understand from Comreg documents the 4 commercial multiplexes are already finalised with planning underway for possible Mux 7 and 8. The list hasn't been published.

Will the 6 non PSB muxes come from the RRC06 allocation or elsewhere?

Mike 1972 wrote: »

Why

Its never going to happen ?

Maybe not but if things change in future it's better to be looking at them than looking for them. Staking our claim to valuable spectrum.

STB

The Cush wrote: »

Now that all concerned appear to have agreed the final configuration for the Irish transmitters maybe they'll now publish the actual ERPs for the 51 sites at ASO.

STB

The Cush wrote: »

Invalid Attachments.

Cén Fath ?

Fixed. Ta.

firkin

The Cush wrote: »

The analogue tuning information is still valid...

This is my point entirely. You've named the link "analogue tuning information" because you know what it is about. But that is far from clear to the uninitiated.

For eaxmple my experience last July was, I navigated to the RTE NL "Brodcast Information" page looking for tuning info and I saw "Television Frequency" link and I download that PDF you linked to and it gives VHF BIII and UHF A and nowhere in that document does it say analogue only or digital is different or in the future changes will be made or Saorview has different frequencies.

I can't believe to this day they still have that misleading and seriously deficient document on the web site.

There's no excuse for it. It would take 5 mins to annotate that PDF and upload it to their web site.

Its either incompetence or laziness or both. [Sorry for the rant:rolleyes:]

The Cush wrote: »

We've been saying the same here for years.

From the tit-for-tat replies you were giving me I thought you were on their side. Glad to hear we're on the same page

STB

Firkin,

RTE NL have always advised a Wideband aerial for Mt Leinster. It has come up before. My post here with the picture is from the Saorview Aerial guide for consumers.

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=70069197&postcount=14

firkin

STB wrote: »

Firkin,

RTE NL have always advised a Wideband aerial for Mt Leinster. It has come up before. My post here with the picture is from the Saorview Aerial guide for consumers.

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=70069197&postcount=14

Actually having read that thread you posted thats where I got my info from. You yourself posted that Group B was for DTT.

STB wrote: »

RTE's recommendation on what to use is per that sheet which has being doing the rounds for over a year. It clearly recommends A for Analogue only and B for DTT only, Wideband for both combined.

That link you posted clearly recommends Group B for DTT.


The point I'm making (and I think your post has proved) is RTE NL's communication is dire and needs fixing. I don't think you can argue with that?

Sponge Bob

They are dodging satellite shadow issues as well ( mind you so is Rabbitte).

Committee should haul them in and get HD maps.

The Cush

STB wrote: »

I posted that information from the Comreg source document here a few weeks ago.

The thing is that information is the Comreg licensed max coordinted ERPs for each of the sites but may not be the actual ERP used for the sites by RTÉNL. If you compare the analogue information from the document with the actual RTÉNL information there can be a difference.

We don't know the actual ERPs until RTÉNL publish the information similar to the analogue frequency list.

watty

If the government wants better coverage maybe they should contribute. So far they haven't yet claim the "Digital dividend" is worth €500M. (It's not though).

STB

firkin wrote: »

Actually having read that thread you posted thats where I got my info from. You yourself posted that Group B was for DTT.


That link you posted clearly recommends Group B for DTT.


The point I'm making (and I think your post has proved) is RTE NL's communication is dire and needs fixing. I don't think you can argue with that?

I recommended a Wideband actually.

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=70067279&postcount=8

I dont disagree that it is a bit of a mess though.

The Cush

firkin wrote: »

I can't believe to this day they still have that misleading and seriously deficient document on the web site.

There's no excuse for it. It would take 5 mins to annotate that PDF and upload it to their web site.

Its either incompetence or laziness or both.

In my opinion it may be neither, more likely international coordination with the UK (Ofcom) hadn't been completed but with the information on the retunes now released the DTT plan may now be finalised. I would expect the DTT frequency guide to be published in due course if this is the case.

firkin wrote: »

From the tit-for-tat replies you were giving me I thought you were on their side. Glad to hear we're on the same page

I'm not on anyone's side but my own and post based on information in the public domain.

STB

The Cush wrote: »

I posted that information from the Comreg source document here a few weeks ago.

The thing is that information is the Comreg licensed max coordinted ERPs for each of the sites but may not be the actual ERP used for the sites by RTÉNL. If you compare the analogue information from the document with the actual RTÉNL information there can be a difference.

We don't know the actual ERPs until RTÉNL publish the information similar to the analogue frequency list.

Wasnt aware that it had been posted it previously.

But yeah they are the maximum licensed ERPs. RTE will be using the max in those cases, but not in all cases right now as they have analogue Txs operating in tandom from a number of towers. Come ASO there will be significant power increases IMO.

firkin

STB wrote: »

I recommended a Wideband actually.
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=70067279&postcount=8

Ahh, you may have recommended wideband but RTE NL didn't.

STB wrote: »

I dont disagree that it is a bit of a mess though.

And that's my point exactly

The Cush

STB wrote: »

But yeah they are the maximum licensed ERPs. RTE will be using the max in those cases, but not in all cases right now as they have analogue Txs operating in tandom from a number of towers. Come ASO there will be significant power increases IMO.

According to RTÉNL at a pre launch Saorview trade event in Apr(?) almost all DTT sites are at full power except those with NI overspill until ASO. But we don't know what ERP they're at until they publish the information.

firkin

The Cush wrote: »

In my opinion it may be neither, more likely international coordination with the UK (Ofcom) hadn't been completed but with the information on the retunes now released the DTT plan may now be finalised. I would expect the DTT frequency guide to be published in due course if this is the case.

It's no excuse for not amending that "television frequencies" PDF with a simple health warning that the freqencies are for Analogue TV and DTT is different but due to international coordination issues with the UK we cant post the DTT frequencies until some time in the future [or whatever the reason]

The Cush wrote: »

I'm not on anyone's side but my own

Here, here