Cabinet to scrap all grants for postgrad courses.

El Siglo

I just came across the article headline in the Sunday Business Post and bought a subscription, here's the article for everyone to read.

Cabinet to scrap all grants for postgrad courses
13 November 2011 by Pat Leahy and Niamh Connolly

The government is to abolish all financial support for new postgraduate students from next year, scrapping existing grants and maintenance support, The Sunday Business Post has learned.

About 40 per cent of all full-time postgraduate students - some 9,000 this year - currently have their fees paid by the state and also qualify for maintenance grants.

From next year, the state support will end for new students, in a move the Department of Education expects will save €50 million a year. Students currently enrolled on courses will be allowed to finish them with their grants for fees and maintenance intact.

The state pays all undergraduate fees and also provides some maintenance grants for 44 per cent of all undergraduate students. However, two-thirds of postgraduates pay fees. Postgraduate students who qualify for grants receive an average of under €6,000 a year in fees and maintenance grants.

The move comes after pressure on education minister Ruairi Quinn to find savings in his department's €9 billion annual budget. Increasing numbers at primary level, with further increases to come given the high birth rate, will add further to the financial pressure. The funding squeeze is being particularly felt at third level.

The move will increase pressure on Labour TDs, who are already nervous about education cuts. The Sunday Business Post has learned that a group of at least ten Labour Party TDs met last week in Leinster House to discuss their growing concern over the possible re-introduction of college fees.

The meeting, which took place outside the parliamentary party, was described by the deputies as an "informal dialogue and exchange of ideas". However, there are clear rumblings on the backbenches over the prospect of tuition fees.

One TD who attended the adhoc meeting said it represented "the first sign of a subtle resistance on a specific issue", while another said that a return to college fees would represent a "red line issue" for many deputies.
Most of the TDs who attended the meeting were elected for the first time in February. They included Waterford TD Ciara Conway, Dublin west TD Patrick Nulty, Clare TD Michael McNamara, Dublin mid-west TD Robert Dowd, Galway east TD Colm Keaveney, Louth TD Gerard Nash and Dublin south TD Alex White.

White described the meeting as "informal", and played down its significance. But he said that "third level fees and university access was a big issue for the Labour Party, and would be regarded as a highly progressive achievement by the party when last in government".

Colm Keaveney said there was "nothing sinister about a group in the Labour Party sitting down and talking about any subject. We're not a centrally-controlled organisation, and it's about dialogue and the exchange of ideas. Nobody should feel threatened by it and nobody has picked up the phone to say that we cannot do this. Ruairi Quinn has a mature attitude towards the backbenchers".

Louth TD Gerard Nash said that "we want to ensure that, whatever happens in the budget, that third-level education is open to everyone - we don't want to return to a situation where it is the preserve of privileged kids".

The meeting of Labour deputies came ahead of a mass rally of third-level students which is due to be held in Dublin next Wednesday. Gary Redmond, president of USI, said coaches would travel from every third-level college in the country for a rally at the Garden of Remembrance, and a march to Government Buildings on Merrion Street.

Concern is growing in the Labour Party at the prospect of an embarrassing u-turn on a core party pledge given on third-level fees before the general election. Ruairi Quinn signed a pledge on February 21 - four days before the election - not to reinstate student fees, but has declined calls by USI to re-affirm his commitment to the pledge since his party entered government.
It was a Labour education minister, Niamh Bhreathnach, who abolished fees in 1995. Quinn was finance minister at the time.

I don't care about the meeting of some Labour party idiots, however this is a disgraceful move by the government which completely fuck postgrads over. Without the grant I would never have been able to do an MSc or even continue on to the PhD that I'm doing now. People are probably better off doing a postgrad abroad now.

sambuka41

I just seen this a min ago, I am absolutely raging. I am sick of this country. It is unbelievable they smack you down at every chance. They want an educated economy then they pull a stunt like this. Thats just packed my bags for me. I have never had a grant or any kind of assistance, I paid for my undergrad in a private college and for my H Dip with UCD as it was part time. Neither of which are getting me any work so I need more, but now I wont be able to afford it. :mad::mad::mad::(

forfcksake

This is a disgrace! They are destroying families all over the country & now taking away the only half decent thing this country has! As the OP said people are better off studying abroad now & staying there, do they not realise that this will happen!

Sarn

This is going to significantly reduce the number of post-grads doing courses that don't get traditional funding, such as non-science/engineering based courses.

ImDave

I don't see how they will be able to implement these measures for the next academic year. I mean would some people (such as current final year students for example) not already have applied for (or seriously thinking about applying for) a postgraduate course for the forthcoming academic year on the basis that they would get a continuation of their grant, or that a grant would be available. I think it would be very unfair to people in that kind of situation where it would provide the only option to attaining a postgraduate qualification at present.

davi78

When I started in UCD, I did their Access course. During this, the government decided that a person could get EITHER the maintanance grant or BTEA. I started a full time degree and then they changed it so that mature students weren't automatically entitled to the "non-adjacent rate". This meant starting second year, I was down €4000. Now they've taken away any hope of progressing past the degree stage.

How much more can they take? We all know that a degree is now worth about the same as the Leaving Cert was 10 years ago.

One of Ireland's most valuable exports is educated people. I am sickened by this ridiculous proposal. Ireland is going to get nowhere if we keep allowing our government to get away with this.

abydos6

This is very frustrating, now what are we supposed to do? I've been getting the background together for a PHD proposal, and now I find that the funding I was hoping would be there is about to be pulled out from under me.

So not fair. :eek::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad:

bazzare

this is an absolutely stupid and disgraceful decision.

if implemented it will mean that thousands of students who wish to go on and do a post grad course will be unable to do so, myself included.

I am now left with the option of having to put myself in huge debt to do a masters ( assuming i could even get a loan from the bank ) ,the alternative is to else just forgetting the whole thing and emigrate

its so ridiculous that all they will save out of this is 50 million euros.. that's about the cost of a new by pass FFS !!!.. you would think they would be giving priority to education. .. but no its DUMB AND DUMBER

Lads the country is going down the tubes, we are being led by a bunch of mediocre talentless buffoons who sit in the Dail and collect huge salaries yet they cant see the woods from the trees.

I am so fecking angry about this .

at the end of the day an undergrad degree is nothing special these days and people need to do a postgrad course to improve their job prospects...

the bottom line is we are screwed

sambuka41

abydos6 wrote: »

This is very frustrating, now what are we supposed to do? I've been getting the background together for a PHD proposal, and now I find that the funding I was hoping would be there is about to be pulled out from under me.

So not fair. :eek::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad:

I've been doing the same, getting a portfolio together for the lsat 18 months, volunteering, working, studying, saving all with the aim of doing a PHD next year and now nothing. My course is €12,500 a year and its three years full time. How will I afford that now? :(:(

sambuka41

I know I'm going to sound like the guys on Dame Street but they are keeping all the wealth to themselves. By doing this they have ensured that the only people who can advance in this country are the wealthy.

Without postgraduate education we cannot compete in the jobs market with these privileged folk, and they exactly how they want it.

So they will keep giving grants to under grad courses, so those people will do their courses and the join the dole que with the rest of us with under grads, its not been a benefit to us. While the ones who can afford the extortionate fees and have the luxury to study and not work, will be getting all the jobs and progressing. :mad::mad::mad:

I'm off to Dame Street!!!!!!!!!!!:P

wesf

nothing surprises me with this country. but why can people come on here complaining, but when it comes to doing something about it, we take a back seat. same for everything in this country! we put the fools where they are, and we could take them out too. they need to be shown that people aren't going to take their sh1t anymore.

Hitchhiker's Guide to...

What PhD funding is going to be pulled? Are we talking about IRCHSS/IRCSET, or some other grant scheme?

280special

Surely this will end up costing them money ?

If people have to give up on their studies wont most of them end up on the dole? And actually get more money there than they would via the grant?

Its an absolute disgrace that this is even being thought about, just goes to prove that this crew are no different to the last mob of chancers...They havent a flaming clue !

herisson

for fúck sake! :mad:

how the feck are students along with myself be able to attend a postgrad course when there is no support there for us! this is ridiculous!

im depending on the grant as it is! and i was hoping that i could at least get some of fees paid for next year! i am aware i sound like a sponge off the government but its the only means for me to get through college! i dont have a job me parents dont have jobs...ive tred so hard to find a job! i have no other ways of actually funding my studies! for the love of god!

So government take a pay cut for once! stop punishing those who want to further their education and those who are just trying to support their families on minimum wage or on the dole! its ridiculous! :mad:

:mad::mad::mad:

xinchao

Write to your TD. exercise your democratic right. Nothing in Ireland changes because people complain and moan about things to each other. Look at the over 70s when they didn't agree with medical card withdrawal proposal. They harrassed their TDs and then on a final note too kto the streets. Get organised by simply writing a letter to the minister of education or a labour or Fine Gael TD.
It is a disgrace! It does make me really angry!
BUT YOU CANNOT FIX SOMETHING WITHOUT TACKLING THE ISSUE.
Why wait another four years for an election?
If you can post here, you can send a mail. Remember most people reading this are more educated that the people governing us. Most of whom we didn't want in the first place. I dislike Fianna Fail intensely but at least they were so feckless they were funny, this coalition are feckless, but sinister.

RISE UP: AND BE COUNTED.

melekalikimaka

will this affect phd's? surely not, i understand removing grants, hard times and such...but for phds it's a different system surely

sambuka41

Some PHD's aren't funded. The one I was hoping to do isn't. Its not research PHD is a Clinical one. So the only way to fund it was through the grant (part paying fees, and the rest being covered by me)


I plan on writing a letter to any one who will listen, this doesn't make any sense in the big picture. :mad:

HavingCrack

abydos6 wrote: »

This is very frustrating, now what are we supposed to do? I've been getting the background together for a PHD proposal, and now I find that the funding I was hoping would be there is about to be pulled out from under me.

So not fair. :eek::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad:

Try Canada or the US (to a lesser extent). Getting funding for post graduate study is far easier in universities there. The UK still has some but it's drying up fast under Cameron and Clegg.

Slang_Tang

Surely they can't implement this next year. When are they going to bother informing us officially? In the December budget?! Most potential postgrads, myself included, will have already applied by then.

If this is going to affect you, write to your T.D. immediately. I'd encourage people to send messages to all Labour T.Ds.

Savings of €50 million in the same month they paid 700 million to unguaranteed bondholders. Disgraceful.

harrythehat

I'm sorry but if the State has funded your education up to and including your undergrad that is more than you would get in almost any other country in the whole world. Really.

If, after that, you feel the need to do a postgrad, do the same thing you would do if you felt you needed to own a car or buy a house - TAKE OUT A LOAN!

xinchao

harrythehat wrote: »

I'm sorry but if the State has funded your education up to and including your undergrad that is more than you would get in almost any other country in the whole world. Really.

If, after that, you feel the need to do a postgrad, do the same thing you would do if you felt you needed to own a car or buy a house - TAKE OUT A LOAN!

That's fine if the banks were giving loans, but the banks here are bust. I cannot envisage 14,000+ people going to a bank and asking for €15,000 + based on the premise that they might get a job in the future sometime and also with no assets. Doesn't seem likely.

Secondly, no Harrythe hat* believe it or not, there are other countries which fund further education and have social policies that are specifically geared for people to continue their education to the maximum level they wish to achieve. Countries like Sweden, Finland, Norway and Denamrk all have active social welfare transfer policies that allow and facilitate such programmes either through funding or other welfare mechanisms.

Besides in this country jobs are scarce so if you want to find a job you need to do two things:
1). emigrate (like yourself)
2). upskill to a level above the market average.

If you do a get job and have been funded by the government in some small way, then your tax take will pay it back in several years anyway, similar to a bank loan. It's exactly your type of thinking that would keep a country like ours eternally inequal and following an American neo-liberal agenda.

I know, there goes the crazy guy again ranting on about having an equal society and equal opportunities for all. But imagine if we tried to build a better society seeing that this one is completely on its knees, after following such an economic agenda for the last twenty or so years? :eek: Strangely your response is exactly the same ideology that drove us into the situation we are now in.

bazzare

""Savings of €50 million in the same month they paid 700 million to unguaranteed bondholders. Disgraceful. ""

well said Slang Tang... these idiots put the bondholders ahead of students and ordinary citizens.

its goiing to probably cost them more in the long run when all these potential post grads end up drawing the dole coz they cant find any jobs

gutenberg

xinchao wrote: »

Secondly, no Harrythe hat* believe it or not, there are other countries which fund further education and have social policies that are specifically geared for people to continue their education to the maximum level they wish to achieve. Countries like Sweden, Finland, Norway and Denamrk all have active social welfare transfer policies that allow and facilitate such programmes either through funding or other welfare mechanisms.

In the Scandinavian countries, it can be extremely difficult to get a place on postgraduate courses, as a lot of them are research-based (including Masters), which involves finding a supervisor and having a sound proposal etc. Master's in the English-speaking world are moving towards the taught model, which is basically just another undergrad degree.

I know several people who carried on to postgraduate from their undergrad, who left with quite average degrees, but they're happily funded by the State; I graduated top of my class, and have to fight for IRCHSS/IRCSET-type funding because my family falls just outside the grant threshold. How is that fair? I do think people should be encouraged to go on to postgraduate when they have shown an aptitude, but this culture of a 'postgrad free ride' does academia and scholarship in general no favours I think.

blucey

It seems that this is not IRCHSS/IRCSET etc (seems...) but is instead local authority grants, special course grants etc. So, pretty bad for those affected but not a wholescale wipeout of all state support. Thats Budget 2013...:mad:

xinchao

gutenberg wrote: »

In the Scandinavian countries, it can be extremely difficult to get a place on postgraduate courses, as a lot of them are research-based (including Masters), which involves finding a supervisor and having a sound proposal etc. Master's in the English-speaking world are moving towards the taught model, which is basically just another undergrad degree.

I know several people who carried on to postgraduate from their undergrad, who left with quite average degrees, but they're happily funded by the State; I graduated top of my class, and have to fight for IRCHSS/IRCSET-type funding because my family falls just outside the grant threshold. How is that fair? I do think people should be encouraged to go on to postgraduate when they have shown an aptitude, but this culture of a 'postgrad free ride' does academia and scholarship in general no favours I think.

I agree, however, at my University you have to have a 2:1 plus to move on to a Masters degree. So I'm not sure what you mean with average degrees. However, I do agree meritocracy should be applied in cases like yourself. I'm in a similar situation, I have to leave Ireland for a year or two to work and earn money somewhere else and then have enough cash to live on while I do my Masters. I have no problem doing that personally, it's just it would take me another year or two if I have to pay the fees as well.
I'm in my late thirties and it would have been nice to get that extra little bit of help for another year.

Shame really, but that's life. As far as letting people do Masters and any kind of Masters, that's what the market dictates here, most people wouldn't want to go on and do a Masters programme -the people i know who are and have done Masters, it was for economic reasons more than purely academic reasons. Ireland is a tiny open economy and the companies here have their pick and because of that the competition is driving people to become more and more educated.

Slang_Tang

harrythehat wrote: »

I'm sorry but if the State has funded your education up to and including your undergrad that is more than you would get in almost any other country in the whole world. Really.

If, after that, you feel the need to do a postgrad, do the same thing you would do if you felt you needed to own a car or buy a house - TAKE OUT A LOAN!

Fair enough if you think that postgraduate education should not be funded by the State. A lot of people would agree with you.

However, introducing it with a few months' notice is incompetent and unfair. As I said before, a lot of postgraduates will have already applied by December. Some diplomas, etc. have a December application deadline.

This does not leave people much time to find other courses and different funding options. For example, most MAs I've looked at in the UK have an early February deadline.

gutenberg

xinchao wrote: »

I agree, however, at my University you have to have a 2:1 plus to move on to a Masters degree. So I'm not sure what you mean with average degrees.

Shame really, but that's life. As far as letting people do Masters and any kind of Masters, that's what the market dictates here, most people wouldn't want to go on and do a Masters programme -the people i know who are and have done Masters, it was for economic reasons more than purely academic reasons. Ireland is a tiny open economy and the companies here have their pick and because of that the competition is driving people to become more and more educated.

Slang_Tang wrote: »

Fair enough if you think that postgraduate education should not be funded by the State. A lot of people would agree with you.

However, introducing it with a few months' notice is incompetent and unfair. As I said before, a lot of postgraduates will have already applied by December. Some diplomas, etc. have a December application deadline.

This does not leave people much time to find other courses and different funding options. For example, most MAs I've looked at in the UK have an early February deadline.

I'll deal with your second point first: I completely agree that it is extremely unfair that this has been introduced at such short notice. Is it definitely being implemented from September next year (2012)?

As regards 'average degrees', I meant degrees that are good but that in no way would win truly competitive funding, so I suppose I mean anything below a mid-2.1, as at this stage to win any kind of scholarship, especially in the arts/humanities/social sciences field, you pretty much have to have a first.

And I don't see how you can say 'that's life' when commiserating with people on how difficult it is to get postgraduate funding, and then be apoplectic about the removal of the grant. Surely that's life? It just means that those who received the grant will have to compete for academic funding the same as everyone else, only without the cushion of knowing the State will pick up the tab if they fail. That's the attitude a lot of the people I know had: 'sure I'll apply, but no biggie if I, with my average 2.1, don't get it cos it'll be paid for me'. Whereas I, with my first, *HAVE* to get competitive funding in order to be able to do the course at all, no safety net. So no, I don't accept that it's 'just life'.

metal chemist

I'm a final year PhD student and my research is in metal based anti-cancer drugs. The other day I recieved great news regarding the activity of my compounds and another paper is currently in preparation.

I've appeared in numerous publications, represented my university on a national level and won 7 different awards during my PhD. I've gone abroad proudly representing my country and university at huge academic conferences.

My PhD was funded by the maintenance grant system and none of this would have been possible without that funding. Removing access to that funding is complete non-sense and a disgrace to disadvantaged students who have the ability to literally change the world with their research.

Every year I get approved for my grant I personally thank all the staff in the office, I never would have had this amazing opartunity without it!

I will be protesting this complete farce in the coming weeks and I hope people will join me

avalon68

metal chemist wrote: »

I'm a final year PhD student and my research is in metal based anti-cancer drugs. The other day I recieved great news regarding the activity of my compounds and another paper is currently in preparation.

I've appeared in numerous publications, represented my university on a national level and won 7 different awards during my PhD. I've gone abroad proudly representing my country and university at huge academic conferences.

My PhD was funded by the maintenance grant system and none of this would have been possible without that funding. Removing access to that funding is complete non-sense and a disgrace to disadvantaged students who have the ability to literally change the world with their research.

Every year I get approved for my grant I personally thank all the staff in the office, I never would have had this amazing opartunity without it!

I will be protesting this complete farce in the coming weeks and I hope people will join me

Wre you not also in receipt of a stipend from sfi/ircset etc? I fail to see how a maintenance grant would pay for any scientific research given the cost of reagents. It certainly wouldnt pay for conferences - there are travel grants available to cover that as part of all sfi/ircset/whatever relevant body.

Cicero

This means:

1. More on Dole
2. More emmigrating
3. Less qualified post grads than other countries
4. Less recognition of our universities abroad
5. Less investment and foreign companies setting up in Ireland

WELL DONE GOVT- another stupid decision for a lousy 50 mill SHAME ON YOU!!!

kob29

I agree that posting here will do little to fight the battle. In your colleges you need to post up the email addresses of all the local relevant TD's and bombard them. Voting rates have been so low amongst young people for so long politicians don't rate your interest in politics or will to fight.