Tibet, 11 self-immolations since the start of the year

EI_Flyboy

When celebrity trials take over the headlines I often wonder what isn't making the news.

Tibetan nun burns to death (BBC)
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-15571017

Tibetan Nun Who Set Herself On Fire Dies (Sky)
WARNING THIS VIDEO CONTAINS DISTURBING IMAGES
http://news.sky.com/home/world-news/article/16095074

Dalai Lama: 'Cultural genocide' behind self-immolations (BBC)
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-15617026

Study points to heavy handed repression of Tibetan area in China (The New York Times) (including HRW report)
http://www.nytimes.com/2011/10/13/world/asia/study-points-to-heavy-handed-repression-of-tibetan-area-in-china.html

China is fueling the fires of Tibetan resistance (Guardian)
http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2011/oct/17/china-tibetan-resistance-self-immolation

Rare footage of Tibetan monk post-immolation in April
WARNING THIS VIDEO CONTAINS DISTURBING IMAGES
http://www.avaaz.org/tibet_immolation_footage

Video of heightened police presence days ago in Ngaba (AFP)
http://www.avaaz.org/Ngaba_police_footage

Tesco Massacre

It's just not a "sexy" topic for the Western media.

They'll sell more copies of a paper with Micheal Jackson's doctor on the front cover than one about ritual suicide in Tibet. I know it's kind of stating the obvious, but that's it in a nutshell.

El Weirdo

EI_Flyboy wrote: »

I often wonder what isn't making the news.

From all the links provided, it quite obviously is making the news.

strobe

Gobshites. Sometimes we tend to forget it's not just the Abrahamic religions that make people act retarded. At least these poor deluded nuts are only hurting themselves though I guess...

Does anyone that's handy with photoshop feel like doing me up a hipster Thich Quang Duc to post in YLYL with the news links?

Sergeant

How are the Americans and Israelis involved in all this?

Nodin

EI_Flyboy wrote: »

When celebrity trials take over the headlines I often wonder what isn't making the news.

..........

Theres improved road and rail links to Tibet in the last few years, which have greatly increased the rate of colonisation.

Jagle

strobe wrote: »

Gobshites. Sometimes we tend to forget it's not just the Abrahamic religions that make people act retarded. At least these poor deluded nuts are only hurting themselves though I guess...

:rolleyes: small mind, closed mind

gurramok

China is a huge trading partner for most countries and govts do not want to upset them. Basically money and jobs take precedence over human rights.

smash

EI_Flyboy wrote: »

When celebrity trials take over the headlines I often wonder what isn't making the news.

did you see that guy that grabbed 1,000 women's boobs on youtube?

strobe

Jagle wrote: »

:rolleyes: small mind, closed mind

Big feet, long feet :rolleyes:

This is fun, now you go again.

Fishooks12

Tesco Massacre wrote: »

It's just not a "sexy" topic for the Western media.

They'll sell more copies of a paper with Micheal Jackson's doctor on the front cover than one about ritual suicide in Tibet. I know it's kind of stating the obvious, but that's it in a nutshell.

Did you even look at any of the links in the OP?

I Heart Internet

strobe wrote: »

Gobshites. Sometimes we tend to forget it's not just the Abrahamic religions that make people act retarded. At least these poor deluded nuts are only hurting themselves though I guess...

Emmm...I'm not sure their religion is really the prime motivation behind them doing this. More their countries political situtation...or their understanding of it.

Wattle

strobe wrote: »

Gobshites. Sometimes we tend to forget it's not just the Abrahamic religions that make people act retarded. At least these poor deluded nuts are only hurting themselves though I guess...

Does anyone that's handy with photoshop feel like doing me up a hipster Thich Quang Duc to post in YLYL with the news links?

Dumbest post of the week. Congratulations. Do you think that the Chinese are treating these people with kid gloves? I mean what is wrong with them? Why do they have to draw attention to themselves? :rolleyes:

Saila

maybe someone should burn themselves alive to bring attention to this

Davidth88

Flaming heck !!!

Tesco Massacre

Fishooks12 wrote: »

Did you even look at any of the links in the OP?

Yeah, I did.

But I think what the op was trying to say wasn't that stories like this don't appear in the media (they obviously do- he's posted links), it's that they don't take prominence. Instead, you get stories about Michael Jackson's former doctor.

strobe

I Heart Internet wrote: »

Emmm...I'm not sure their religion is really the prime motivation behind them doing this. More their countries political situtation...or their understanding of it.

Their religion is what facilitates it unfortunately. The belief in the death re-birth cycle and the need to escape this cycle is very conducive towards torching yourself when compared to people lacking this belief. Hence the disproportionate number of Tibetan Buddhist self-immolations compared to Christian or atheist or Rastafari self-immolations.

Sure why not burn yourself, you will be re-incarnated 49 days later and more than likely the experience it's self will help you achieve a level of transcendence.

I wonder how many of these poor ****ers came up with the idea to do this all on their own and how many were egged on by their lama as it being a perfect way to help liberate themselves from the death-re-birth cycle...

Duke Leonal Felmet

Self immolation is soooo 196.....3?

Fishooks12

Tesco Massacre wrote: »

Yeah, I did.

But I think what the op was trying to say wasn't that stories like this don't appear in the media (they obviously do- he's posted links), it's that they don't take prominence. Instead, you get stories about Michael Jackson's former doctor.

Well that's just how it works

Most papers are private companies looking to make a profit and the fact is that Michael Jacksons murder trial (and that is a big story by the way, he was one of the most famous people on the planet) is always going to be a better seller than political suicide in Tibet.

Another thing that limits the amount of coverage is the nature of restriction in China itself, the Sky News video in the OP shows just how hard it can be to report properly in a communist country

Tesco Massacre

Fishooks12 wrote: »

Well that's just how it works

Most papers are private companies looking to make a profit and the fact is that Michael Jacksons murder trial (and that is a big story by the way, he was one of the most famous people on the planet) is always going to be a better seller than political suicide in Tibet.

That's pretty much what I said in my first post.

It's a sales-driven decision to put Jackson's doctor on the front page, whereas the Tibet stories are in the sub sections of the BBC, NY Times & Guardian websites. I have no idea if they even made the print editions of the papers.

Wattle

strobe wrote: »

Their religion is what facilitates it unfortunately. The belief in the death re-birth cycle and the need to escape this cycle is very conducive towards torching yourself when compared to people lacking this belief. Hence the disproportionate number of Tibetan Buddhist self-immolations compared to Christian or atheist or Rastafari self-immolations.

Sure why not burn yourself, you will be re-incarnated 49 days later and more than likely the experience it's self will help you achieve a level of transcendence.

I wonder how many of these poor ****ers came up with the idea to do this all on their own and how many were egged on by their lama as it being a perfect way to help liberate themselves from the death-re-birth cycle...

There's been plenty of Christian and Muslim martyrs down the years, far more than Buddhist martyrs. And your contention that Buddhism is some sort of suicide cult is just laughable.

strobe

Wattle wrote: »

Dumbest post of the week. Congratulations. Do you think that the Chinese are treating these people with kid gloves? I mean what is wrong with them? Why do they have to draw attention to themselves? :rolleyes:

No I think China have treated the Tibetans atrociously for a long long time and continue to do so. I am fully supportive of Tibet's claim of statehood and I am utterly opposed to China's anti-freedom of religion policies both in Tibet and throughout China itself.

My view is one of sympathy for the poor dopes setting themselves on fire as I believe they view the outcome of doing so through a prism of fantasy about what comes next. I think it's extremely sad to see people ending their lives in this way, or any way. Suicide is extremely tragic, and even more so in these cases in my opinion, when it is not done simply because the person feels they can no longer continue to live, because they are in too much emotional or other pain, but as an ineffective political statement. I also think it would be very naive to believe that their aren't people encouraging these acts in other people for their own political ends.

It's fucking tragic is what it is.

But as you were, don't ask anyone to expand on their reasons for saying what they say, just write it off as stupid, that's much easier isn't it?

histories

strobe wrote: »

Their religion is what facilitates it unfortunately. The belief in the death re-birth cycle and the need to escape this cycle is very conducive towards torching yourself when compared to people lacking this belief. Hence the disproportionate number of Tibetan Buddhist self-immolations compared to Christian or atheist or Rastafari self-immolations.

Sure why not burn yourself, you will be re-incarnated 49 days later and more than likely the experience it's self will help you achieve a level of transcendence.

I wonder how many of these poor ****ers came up with the idea to do this all on their own and how many were egged on by their lama as it being a perfect way to help liberate themselves from the death-re-birth cycle...

What facilitates it is the illegal occupation of Tibet by China and the massive human rights abuse that are going on in the country. While of course the powers that be look the other way, trade being more important. The UK and America had recognised that Tibet is entitled to self-determination, the UN issued 3 mandates stating the China had no right to be there, but since Tibet is not an oil rich country or of political importance nobody does anything. What the nuns etc. are doing is an act of desperation, the world needs to start paying attention.

UglyBolloxFace

Although I am in no way a religious person and actually despise it, I can't help but feel extreme admiration for these people willing to do this act in the name of something they believe in.

Truly amazing.

strobe

Wattle wrote: »

There's been plenty of Christian and Muslim martyrs down the years, far more than Buddhist martyrs. And your contention that Buddhism is some sort of suicide cult is just laughable.

That is not my contention, are being deliberately obtuse? Don't try and put words in my mouth. It's a fact that the nature of the beliefs in Tibetan Buddhism mean that they view suicide differently to others and that this in part facilitates the act of self-immolation.

strobe

histories wrote: »

What facilitates it is the illegal occupation of Tibet by China and the massive human rights abuse that are going on in the country. While of course the powers that be look the other way, trade being more important. The UK and America had recognised that Tibet is entitled to self-determination, the UN issued 3 mandates stating the China had no right to be there, but since Tibet is not an oil rich country or of political importance nobody does anything. What the nuns etc. are doing is an act of desperation, the world needs to start paying attention.

You posted at the same time as me, see the post above yours for my view on China's involvement in Tibet.

mathie

Self-immolation = Lemmywinks?

I Heart Internet

UglyBolloxFace wrote: »

Although I am in no way a religious person and actually despise it, I can't help but feel extreme admiration for these people willing to do this act in the name of something they believe in.

Truly amazing.

I think you're assuming they do this because of their religion. I don't think this is the case. They presumably do it because they want to draw attention to the plight of their compatriots - not because they think it's the good, buddhist thing to do.

Their respected place in their society and links to supporters in the outside world must prompt some (thankfully a small few) to "step-up" and do this in order to get some international attention.

That's my understanding of it. Political - not religious.Very sad and desperate act.

Nodin

strobe wrote: »

That is not my contention, are being deliberately obtuse? Don't try and put words in my mouth. It's a fact that the nature of the beliefs in Tibetan Buddhism mean that they view suicide differently to others and that this in part facilitates the act of self-immolation.

Not really, as acts of suicide for political propoganda are far from restricted to buddihists.

Duke Leonal Felmet

Nodin wrote: »

strobe wrote: »

That is not my contention, are being deliberately obtuse? Don't try and put words in my mouth. It's a fact that the nature of the beliefs in Tibetan Buddhism mean that they view suicide differently to others and that this in part facilitates the act of self-immolation.

Not really, as acts of suicide for political propoganda are far from restricted to buddihists.

But is could be argued that religion is a factor in other examples, such as Islam. I don't know much about Buddhism, but perhaps some fringe sects encourage this?

Wattle

strobe wrote: »

Their religion is what facilitates it unfortunately. The belief in the death re-birth cycle and the need to escape this cycle is very conducive towards torching yourself when compared to people lacking this belief. Hence the disproportionate number of Tibetan Buddhist self-immolations compared to Christian or atheist or Rastafari self-immolations.

Sure why not burn yourself, you will be re-incarnated 49 days later and more than likely the experience it's self will help you achieve a level of transcendence.

Your version of their self immolation implies a selfish motive: trying to escape the death rebirth cycle. I don't agree with the suicides but I think these people are doing it out of desperation and on behalf of a culture that is being squeezed out of existence. To imply that they thought 'oh there's a handy shortcut to enlightenment' is misjudging their motives.

conorhal

strobe wrote: »

That is not my contention, are being deliberately obtuse? Don't try and put words in my mouth. It's a fact that the nature of the beliefs in Tibetan Buddhism mean that they view suicide differently to others and that this in part facilitates the act of self-immolation.

And what about the Tunisian vegetable seller that set himself on fire sparking off the whole 'Arab spring' that swept the Middle East?
Was that act religiously inspired or motivated, or was it more likely to have been motivated by the man’s sense of despair, desperation and his sense of hopelessness at his situation that drove him to make the ultimate, and only kind of protest/escape available to an individual in such an oppressive environment?
I think incidents like these are motivated more by desperation combined with the complete unavailability of any other form of protest (because gatherings of more then a few people tend to be strictly monitored by the authorities).

Like it or not monks wouldn't be going up like Roman candles if the Chinese weren't such a brutal bunch of imperialist thugs. Sadly the Tibetan spring shall be postponed on account of the West's unwillingness to offend it's new paymaster. We hear an awful lot these days about Palestine, but curiously, Tibet which was the trendy 'cause celebre' some years ago, has mysteriously dropped off the human rights agenda....

Nodin

Duke Leonal Felmet wrote: »

But is could be argued that religion is a factor in other examples, such as Islam. I don't know much about Buddhism, but perhaps some fringe sects encourage this?

Catholics, buddhists, muslims, hindus have all engaged in suicidal protests. The last large hunger strike to the death I can think of was in Turkey (around 40 dead) and I believe most of them were communists.

EI_Flyboy

strobe wrote: »

It's a fact that the nature of the beliefs in Tibetan Buddhism mean that they view suicide differently to others and that this in part facilitates the act of self-immolation.

You're wrong there. For them suicide is not rewarded. The fact is that they believe suicide actually sets them back in their life death cycle and sets them up for greater suffering in their next lives. So they are not just sacrificing their current life but also their well being for several lifetimes to come. It's not a decision taken lightly and involves months of meditation to prepare themselves to overcome the pain so they can sit calmly as they burn to death. It is an extreme protest against the murder of their culture, beliefs and people.

Son Of A Vidic

Unfortunately the Chinese market is much to big for the West to give a shít about the plight of Tibet and its people.

Nodin

Corvus Maximus wrote: »

Unfortunately the Chinese market is much to big for the West to give a shít about the plight of Tibet and its people.

They have a veto on the UNSC, so even were a shit given, it wouldn't make a difference.

Son Of A Vidic

Nodin wrote: »

They have a veto on the UNSC, so even were a shit given, it wouldn't make a difference.

Ah yes the UN = The League of Nations 2.0

saintNsinnerr

strobe wrote: »

Gobshites. Sometimes we tend to forget it's not just the Abrahamic religions that make people act retarded. At least these poor deluded nuts are only hurting themselves though I guess...

Does anyone that's handy with photoshop feel like doing me up a hipster Thich Quang Duc to post in YLYL with the news links?

If U dont know abt Buddhism , keep ur mouth shut!!!
they oppose the Chinese occupation , the blooody chinese have turned Tibet in to a fortress and these monks dont want to kill them... coz chinese wil keep on sending their army and keep on killing more innocents...
this is their way of making themselves heard.

Kapish??????????

strobe

saintNsinnerr wrote: »

If U dont know abt Buddhism , keep ur mouth shut!!!
they oppose the Chinese occupation , the blooody chinese have turned Tibet in to a fortress and these monks dont want to kill them... coz chinese wil keep on sending their army and keep on killing more innocents...
this is their way of making themselves heard.

Kapish??????????

If I don't know Buddhism keep my mouth shut? Charming.

If you don't know English keep your mouth shut, how about that? People in glass houses and all that...

Same goes for your pseudo-Italian apparently...

Capisce?

strobe

conorhal wrote: »

And what about the Tunisian vegetable seller that set himself on fire sparking off the whole 'Arab spring' that swept the Middle East?
Was that act religiously inspired or motivated[...]?

Suicide is forbidden in Islam, so it's fairly unlikely.

Nowhere did I say that self-immolation was motivated by Tibetan Buddhism, just that it facilitates it. I stand by that.

strobe

EI_Flyboy wrote: »

You're wrong there. For them suicide is not rewarded. The fact is that they believe suicide actually sets them back in their life death cycle and sets them up for greater suffering in their next lives.

Not in all cases, google 'Godhika'.

So they are not just sacrificing their current life but also their well being for several lifetimes to come.

Well exactly...they view it as temporary.

Nodin

strobe wrote: »

Suicide is forbidden in Islam, so it's fairly unlikely.

Nowhere did I say that self-immolation was motivated by Tibetan Buddhism, just that it facilitates it. I stand by that.

...it doesn't do anything different to other religions and non religous ideologies.

strobe

Anyways...

I'm out of this quagmire of a thread.

Duke Leonal Felmet

Nodin wrote: »

Catholics, buddhists, muslims, hindus have all engaged in suicidal protests. The last large hunger strike to the death I can think of was in Turkey (around 40 dead) and I believe most of them were communists.

So religion cannot be a factor. No matter how small.

conorhal

strobe wrote: »

Suicide is forbidden in Islam, so it's fairly unlikely.

Nowhere did I say that self-immolation was motivated by Tibetan Buddhism, just that it facilitates it. I stand by that.

And as the Artic Monkeys said, 'and all that is what the point is not'.

The point is that 11 frackin people were pushed to the extreme of actually burning themselves to death in Tibet over the last year in protest againt Chinese imperialism. Where do you stand on that?

Duke Leonal Felmet wrote: »

So religion cannot be a factor. No matter how small.

Soooo... why your focus 'no matter how small' on that particular aspect of this story?
I do wonder about the anti-theists on this board and their near obsessive focus on religion regardless of the content of the thread.

Duke Leonal Felmet

conorhal wrote: »

strobe wrote: »

Suicide is forbidden in Islam, so it's fairly unlikely.

Nowhere did I say that self-immolation was motivated by Tibetan Buddhism, just that it facilitates it. I stand by that.

And as the Artic Monkeys said, 'and all that is what the point is not'.

The point is that 11 frackin people were pushed to the extreme of actually burning themselves to death in Tibet over the last year in protest againt Chinese imperialism. Where do you stand on that?

Duke Leonal Felmet wrote: »

So religion cannot be a factor. No matter how small.

Soooo... why your focus 'no matter how small' on that particular aspect of this story?
I do wonder about the anti-theist obsessives on this board and their near obsessive focus.

I'm not anti-theist, I would never vote to ban or supress religion. However, I do wonder about the PC obsessives on this board and their near obsessive focus. (how can you be obesssive and near-obsessive?... odd)

Unfortunately, the fact that you wouldn't even allow the thought of religion playing a factor even enter your head speaks volumes. I would consider many things to be a factor, politics, religion, the individuals upbringing, etc. Shame your mind is closed to certain factors for fear of being labelled 'anti-theist'.

conorhal

Duke Leonal Felmet wrote: »

I'm not anti-theist, I would never vote to ban or supress religion. However, I do wonder about the PC obsessives on this board and their near obsessive focus. (how can you be obesssive and near-obsessive?... odd)

Unfortunately, the fact that you wouldn't even allow the thought of religion playing a factor even enter your head speaks volumes. I would consider many things to be a factor, politics, religion, the individuals upbringing, etc. Shame your mind is closed to certain factors for fear of being labelled 'anti-theist'.

Of course you can be a 'near obsessive', as in I wonder about that behaviour but don't worry about it kind of way....

As for the rest of your post, I get anoyed when threads are derailed by details that have little or no real relevence to the OP. It's a shame you can't actually address the situation of Tibet or is the condemnation of Chinese imperialism 'off the agenda' these days?

Duke Leonal Felmet

conorhal wrote: »

Duke Leonal Felmet wrote: »

I'm not anti-theist, I would never vote to ban or supress religion. However, I do wonder about the PC obsessives on this board and their near obsessive focus. (how can you be obesssive and near-obsessive?... odd)

Unfortunately, the fact that you wouldn't even allow the thought of religion playing a factor even enter your head speaks volumes. I would consider many things to be a factor, politics, religion, the individuals upbringing, etc. Shame your mind is closed to certain factors for fear of being labelled 'anti-theist'.

Of course you can be a 'near obsessive', as in I wonder about that behaviour but don't worry about it kind of way....

As for the rest of your post, I get anoyed when threads are derailed by details that have little or no real relevence to the OP. It's a shame you can't actually address the situation of Tibet or is the condemnation of Chinese imperialism 'off the agenda' these days?

Pretty much, given the crises closer to home. People care more about having a job to take care of their family than some Buddhist in China killing himself.

Harsh, yes. But true.

conorhal

Duke Leonal Felmet wrote: »

Pretty much, given the crises closer to home. People care more about having a job to take care of their family than some Buddhist in China killing himself.

Harsh, yes. But true.

Buddhist in Tibet you mean, or is your obtuse position becoming somewhat clearer?

Duke Leonal Felmet

conorhal wrote: »

Duke Leonal Felmet wrote: »

Pretty much, given the crises closer to home. People care more about having a job to take care of their family than some Buddhist in China killing himself.

Harsh, yes. But true.

Buddhist in Tibet you mean, or is your obtuse position becoming somewhat clearer?

Oh, just **** off...

texidub

Is setting fire to yourself a good way to fight against political oppression?

Would a campaign of structural sabotage not damage the Chinese more? And if getting the word out is useless (since the rest of the world won't do anything about it due to China's superpower status), would they not be better focusing their energies on the internal conflict and liasing with other regional powers who could supply them with the equipment and nous to undermine the Chinese in other ways? Just wondering aloud really.