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Tibet, 11 self-immolations since the start of the year

2

Comments

  • #32
    conorhal
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,098 ✭✭✭conorhal


    strobe wrote: »
    That is not my contention, are being deliberately obtuse? Don't try and put words in my mouth. It's a fact that the nature of the beliefs in Tibetan Buddhism mean that they view suicide differently to others and that this in part facilitates the act of self-immolation.

    And what about the Tunisian vegetable seller that set himself on fire sparking off the whole 'Arab spring' that swept the Middle East?
    Was that act religiously inspired or motivated, or was it more likely to have been motivated by the man’s sense of despair, desperation and his sense of hopelessness at his situation that drove him to make the ultimate, and only kind of protest/escape available to an individual in such an oppressive environment?
    I think incidents like these are motivated more by desperation combined with the complete unavailability of any other form of protest (because gatherings of more then a few people tend to be strictly monitored by the authorities).

    Like it or not monks wouldn't be going up like Roman candles if the Chinese weren't such a brutal bunch of imperialist thugs. Sadly the Tibetan spring shall be postponed on account of the West's unwillingness to offend it's new paymaster. We hear an awful lot these days about Palestine, but curiously, Tibet which was the trendy 'cause celebre' some years ago, has mysteriously dropped off the human rights agenda....


  • #33
    Nodin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    Duke Leonal Felmet wrote: »
    But is could be argued that religion is a factor in other examples, such as Islam. I don't know much about Buddhism, but perhaps some fringe sects encourage this?

    Catholics, buddhists, muslims, hindus have all engaged in suicidal protests. The last large hunger strike to the death I can think of was in Turkey (around 40 dead) and I believe most of them were communists.


  • #34
    EI_Flyboy
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 444 ✭✭EI_Flyboy


    strobe wrote: »
    It's a fact that the nature of the beliefs in Tibetan Buddhism mean that they view suicide differently to others and that this in part facilitates the act of self-immolation.

    You're wrong there. For them suicide is not rewarded. The fact is that they believe suicide actually sets them back in their life death cycle and sets them up for greater suffering in their next lives. So they are not just sacrificing their current life but also their well being for several lifetimes to come. It's not a decision taken lightly and involves months of meditation to prepare themselves to overcome the pain so they can sit calmly as they burn to death. It is an extreme protest against the murder of their culture, beliefs and people.


  • #35
    Son Of A Vidic
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 32,370 ✭✭✭✭Son Of A Vidic


    Unfortunately the Chinese market is much to big for the West to give a shít about the plight of Tibet and its people.


  • #36
    Nodin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    Corvus Maximus wrote: »
    Unfortunately the Chinese market is much to big for the West to give a shít about the plight of Tibet and its people.

    They have a veto on the UNSC, so even were a shit given, it wouldn't make a difference.


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  • #37
    Son Of A Vidic
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 32,370 ✭✭✭✭Son Of A Vidic


    Nodin wrote: »
    They have a veto on the UNSC, so even were a shit given, it wouldn't make a difference.

    Ah yes the UN = The League of Nations 2.0


  • #38
    saintNsinnerr
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 47 ✭saintNsinnerr


    strobe wrote: »
    Gobshites. Sometimes we tend to forget it's not just the Abrahamic religions that make people act retarded. At least these poor deluded nuts are only hurting themselves though I guess...

    Does anyone that's handy with photoshop feel like doing me up a hipster Thich Quang Duc to post in YLYL with the news links?

    If U dont know abt Buddhism , keep ur mouth shut!!!
    they oppose the Chinese occupation , the blooody chinese have turned Tibet in to a fortress and these monks dont want to kill them... coz chinese wil keep on sending their army and keep on killing more innocents...
    this is their way of making themselves heard.

    Kapish??????????


  • #39
    strobe
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,872 ✭✭✭strobe


    saintNsinnerr wrote: »
    If U dont know abt Buddhism , keep ur mouth shut!!!
    they oppose the Chinese occupation , the blooody chinese have turned Tibet in to a fortress and these monks dont want to kill them... coz chinese wil keep on sending their army and keep on killing more innocents...
    this is their way of making themselves heard.

    Kapish??????????

    If I don't know Buddhism keep my mouth shut? Charming.

    If you don't know English keep your mouth shut, how about that? People in glass houses and all that...

    Same goes for your pseudo-Italian apparently...

    Capisce?


  • #40
    strobe
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,872 ✭✭✭strobe


    conorhal wrote: »
    And what about the Tunisian vegetable seller that set himself on fire sparking off the whole 'Arab spring' that swept the Middle East?
    Was that act religiously inspired or motivated[...]?

    Suicide is forbidden in Islam, so it's fairly unlikely.

    Nowhere did I say that self-immolation was motivated by Tibetan Buddhism, just that it facilitates it. I stand by that.


  • #41
    strobe
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,872 ✭✭✭strobe


    EI_Flyboy wrote: »
    You're wrong there. For them suicide is not rewarded. The fact is that they believe suicide actually sets them back in their life death cycle and sets them up for greater suffering in their next lives.

    Not in all cases, google 'Godhika'.
    So they are not just sacrificing their current life but also their well being for several lifetimes to come.
    Well exactly...they view it as temporary.


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  • #42
    Nodin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    strobe wrote: »
    Suicide is forbidden in Islam, so it's fairly unlikely.

    Nowhere did I say that self-immolation was motivated by Tibetan Buddhism, just that it facilitates it. I stand by that.

    ...it doesn't do anything different to other religions and non religous ideologies.


  • #43
    strobe
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,872 ✭✭✭strobe


    Anyways...

    I'm out of this quagmire of a thread.


  • #44
    Duke Leonal Felmet
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,514 ✭✭✭Duke Leonal Felmet


    Nodin wrote: »
    Catholics, buddhists, muslims, hindus have all engaged in suicidal protests. The last large hunger strike to the death I can think of was in Turkey (around 40 dead) and I believe most of them were communists.

    So religion cannot be a factor. No matter how small.


  • #45
    conorhal
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,098 ✭✭✭conorhal


    strobe wrote: »
    Suicide is forbidden in Islam, so it's fairly unlikely.

    Nowhere did I say that self-immolation was motivated by Tibetan Buddhism, just that it facilitates it. I stand by that.

    And as the Artic Monkeys said, 'and all that is what the point is not'.

    The point is that 11 frackin people were pushed to the extreme of actually burning themselves to death in Tibet over the last year in protest againt Chinese imperialism. Where do you stand on that?
    Duke Leonal Felmet wrote: »
    So religion cannot be a factor. No matter how small.

    Soooo... why your focus 'no matter how small' on that particular aspect of this story?
    I do wonder about the anti-theists on this board and their near obsessive focus on religion regardless of the content of the thread.


  • #46
    Duke Leonal Felmet
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,514 ✭✭✭Duke Leonal Felmet


    conorhal wrote: »
    strobe wrote: »
    Suicide is forbidden in Islam, so it's fairly unlikely.

    Nowhere did I say that self-immolation was motivated by Tibetan Buddhism, just that it facilitates it. I stand by that.

    And as the Artic Monkeys said, 'and all that is what the point is not'.

    The point is that 11 frackin people were pushed to the extreme of actually burning themselves to death in Tibet over the last year in protest againt Chinese imperialism. Where do you stand on that?
    Duke Leonal Felmet wrote: »
    So religion cannot be a factor. No matter how small.

    Soooo... why your focus 'no matter how small' on that particular aspect of this story?
    I do wonder about the anti-theist obsessives on this board and their near obsessive focus.

    I'm not anti-theist, I would never vote to ban or supress religion. However, I do wonder about the PC obsessives on this board and their near obsessive focus. (how can you be obesssive and near-obsessive?... odd)

    Unfortunately, the fact that you wouldn't even allow the thought of religion playing a factor even enter your head speaks volumes. I would consider many things to be a factor, politics, religion, the individuals upbringing, etc. Shame your mind is closed to certain factors for fear of being labelled 'anti-theist'.


  • #47
    conorhal
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,098 ✭✭✭conorhal


    Duke Leonal Felmet wrote: »
    I'm not anti-theist, I would never vote to ban or supress religion. However, I do wonder about the PC obsessives on this board and their near obsessive focus. (how can you be obesssive and near-obsessive?... odd)

    Unfortunately, the fact that you wouldn't even allow the thought of religion playing a factor even enter your head speaks volumes. I would consider many things to be a factor, politics, religion, the individuals upbringing, etc. Shame your mind is closed to certain factors for fear of being labelled 'anti-theist'.

    Of course you can be a 'near obsessive', as in I wonder about that behaviour but don't worry about it kind of way....

    As for the rest of your post, I get anoyed when threads are derailed by details that have little or no real relevence to the OP. It's a shame you can't actually address the situation of Tibet or is the condemnation of Chinese imperialism 'off the agenda' these days?


  • #48
    Duke Leonal Felmet
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,514 ✭✭✭Duke Leonal Felmet


    conorhal wrote: »
    Duke Leonal Felmet wrote: »
    I'm not anti-theist, I would never vote to ban or supress religion. However, I do wonder about the PC obsessives on this board and their near obsessive focus. (how can you be obesssive and near-obsessive?... odd)

    Unfortunately, the fact that you wouldn't even allow the thought of religion playing a factor even enter your head speaks volumes. I would consider many things to be a factor, politics, religion, the individuals upbringing, etc. Shame your mind is closed to certain factors for fear of being labelled 'anti-theist'.

    Of course you can be a 'near obsessive', as in I wonder about that behaviour but don't worry about it kind of way....

    As for the rest of your post, I get anoyed when threads are derailed by details that have little or no real relevence to the OP. It's a shame you can't actually address the situation of Tibet or is the condemnation of Chinese imperialism 'off the agenda' these days?

    Pretty much, given the crises closer to home. People care more about having a job to take care of their family than some Buddhist in China killing himself.

    Harsh, yes. But true.


  • #49
    conorhal
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,098 ✭✭✭conorhal


    Duke Leonal Felmet wrote: »
    Pretty much, given the crises closer to home. People care more about having a job to take care of their family than some Buddhist in China killing himself.

    Harsh, yes. But true.

    Buddhist in Tibet you mean, or is your obtuse position becoming somewhat clearer?


  • #50
    Duke Leonal Felmet
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,514 ✭✭✭Duke Leonal Felmet


    conorhal wrote: »
    Duke Leonal Felmet wrote: »
    Pretty much, given the crises closer to home. People care more about having a job to take care of their family than some Buddhist in China killing himself.

    Harsh, yes. But true.

    Buddhist in Tibet you mean, or is your obtuse position becoming somewhat clearer?

    Oh, just **** off...


  • #51
    texidub
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 280 ✭✭texidub


    Is setting fire to yourself a good way to fight against political oppression?

    Would a campaign of structural sabotage not damage the Chinese more? And if getting the word out is useless (since the rest of the world won't do anything about it due to China's superpower status), would they not be better focusing their energies on the internal conflict and liasing with other regional powers who could supply them with the equipment and nous to undermine the Chinese in other ways? Just wondering aloud really.


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  • #52
    humbert
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,238 ✭✭✭humbert


    Interesting article on suicide in Buddhism:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religious_views_on_suicide#Buddhism

    Yes, it's wikipedia..


  • #53
    Nodin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    Duke Leonal Felmet wrote: »
    So religion cannot be a factor. No matter how small.

    Possibly, but it wouldn't seem to be the determining one, given the communists are at it.


  • #54
    Duke Leonal Felmet
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,514 ✭✭✭Duke Leonal Felmet


    Nodin wrote: »
    Duke Leonal Felmet wrote: »
    So religion cannot be a factor. No matter how small.

    Possibly, but it wouldn't seem to be the determining one, given the communists are at it.

    Well, no one factor determines any event, does it? As I said, depending on the individual, it's a mix of politics, religion, etc, etc. So saying that a given religion couldn't have caused it (bar your communist chums) is simply ignoring a determinent.

    And I question the motives to such a strong resistence to what seems to be a likely cofactor.


  • #55
    Nodin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    Duke Leonal Felmet wrote: »

    And I question the motives to such a strong resistence to what seems to be a likely cofactor.

    What are my motives?


  • #56
    Duke Leonal Felmet
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,514 ✭✭✭Duke Leonal Felmet


    Nodin wrote: »
    Duke Leonal Felmet wrote: »

    And I question the motives to such a strong resistence to what seems to be a likely cofactor.

    What are my motives?

    Perhaps I should have said 'I wonder what motives lead to such...'


  • #57
    Nodin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    Duke Leonal Felmet wrote: »
    Perhaps I should have said 'I wonder what motives lead to such...'

    Logic. The original idea was that these suicides were linked to buddhism. However as suicide for a cause takes place across such a wide swathe of ideologies, thats clearly not the case.

    As regards the role of religion generally in such matters, I did not in fact dismiss it out of hand, but stated that it could possibly be a factor, but was hardly a determinant, given the wide ranging differences in the belief systems involved, not to mention the inclusion of non-religous ideologies adherents in the phenomena.


  • #58
    Duke Leonal Felmet
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,514 ✭✭✭Duke Leonal Felmet


    Nodin wrote: »
    Duke Leonal Felmet wrote: »
    Perhaps I should have said 'I wonder what motives lead to such...'

    Logic. The original idea was that these suicides were linked to buddhism. However as suicide for a cause takes place across such a wide swathe of ideologies, thats clearly not the case.

    As regards the role of religion generally in such matters, I did not in fact dismiss it out of hand, but stated that it could possibly be a factor, but was hardly a determinant, given the wide ranging differences in the belief systems involved, not to mention the inclusion of non-religous ideologies adherents in the phenomena.

    If it is a factor then it must be a determinent, to some degree. The only way it could not be is if the factor and event were endogenous, meaning that the event equally determines the factor, which is illogical. So if it is a factor, it must be a determinent. If it is not a factor, it is not a determinent. No other way to have that. It's like saying a personal finance book was a factor in your decision to borrow, but it wasn't a determinent. It makes no sense. If it wasn't a factor, then it wasn't a factor. Statistical Modelling 101.


  • #59
    Nodin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    Duke Leonal Felmet wrote: »
    If it is a factor then it must be a determinent, to some degree. The only way it could not be is if the factor and event were endogenous, meaning that the event equally determines the factor, which is illogical. So if it is a factor, it must be a determinent. If it is not a factor, it is not a determinent. No other way to have that. It's like saying a personal finance book was a factor in your decision to borrow, but it wasn't a determinent. It makes no sense. If it wasn't a factor, then it wasn't a factor. Statistical Modelling 101.

    The human mind, in reaching decisions, does not necessarily work in a logical way.


  • #60
    Duke Leonal Felmet
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,514 ✭✭✭Duke Leonal Felmet


    Nodin wrote: »
    Duke Leonal Felmet wrote: »
    If it is a factor then it must be a determinent, to some degree. The only way it could not be is if the factor and event were endogenous, meaning that the event equally determines the factor, which is illogical. So if it is a factor, it must be a determinent. If it is not a factor, it is not a determinent. No other way to have that. It's like saying a personal finance book was a factor in your decision to borrow, but it wasn't a determinent. It makes no sense. If it wasn't a factor, then it wasn't a factor. Statistical Modelling 101.

    The human mind, in reaching decisions, does not necessarily work in a logical way.

    So religion could be a determinent, then. Even for the commies. Anything can determine a decision, which is my point.


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  • #61
    Nodin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    Duke Leonal Felmet wrote: »
    So religion could be a determinent, then. Even for the commies............

    "could be",in some cases (hindu upper castes committed suicide as protest against untouchable legal protections, if I recall) but this would not appear to be whats behind the current buddhist suicides in Tibet.

    As for your point, other than arguing for the sake of it I'm not sure you have one.


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