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Chronicles of a fish: the days of surf and turf
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Swim
The heat has returned, but I'm not complaining at the moment because that means the brick on my pool deck is at a therapeutic temperature that my body appreciates when I lay on it pre-swim.
Lovely sunshiny evening....and a lovely 2,000 steady yards put down. I have found that the breast stroke kick really helps my runners legs by stretching them out, so I did incorporate 400 yards of breast stroke in with my freestyle. I am really enjoying my swim right now.
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Have a look at these perhaps Kurt, got them from Interested a year or two ago - it deffo helped my speed in the water
That's an absolute goldmine- thanks catweazle (and obviously thanks Interested!)Hey.....you can't go wrong w/Interested's sessions.....so def have a look at them.
But....I am traveling this morning, however i do have a few ideas/thoughts for you, so I'll be back w/you later today. Just for clarification.....enjoyment is bad?? Doesn't feel like work? Want to go faster? I assume endurance is not an issue?
No, enjoyment is good (I've a bad back and am cranky, my friend says I am currently fetishizing pain:D). Swimming doesn't feel like work (it's tough at times, but I enjoy it). I want to go faster (circa 15 min kilometers pace back to back), and endurance would be my strong point in the water. Thanks for your help! (As always) 0 -
Kurt Godel wrote: »I seek answers, I should have approached the godhead first...;)
How do you count your distance when doing the big laps? Manually, or do you use a device?
I've been making decent gains by copying a lot of your swim logs- mainly long straight swims, sometimes shorter drills/repeats. And I've been enjoying it. What am I doing wrong?
Okay, Aqua-boy.....here's the secret to distance swimming: upper body strength, stroke efficiency and body position. (Of course, keep in mind I was a sprinter...:o) Master these three, and I guarantee you will blow Abhainn out of the water.
When I was swimming competitively, part of our upper body workout consisted of lifting weights a few times a week. The other part took place in the water in the form of using a pull buoy (of which I am a huge fan), using hand paddles (with or without the pull buoy - don't know why, but I've never been a huge fan of paddles but you might want to try them), adding some sort of drag (like wearing a t-shirt), hoisting the body out of the pool between laps/intervals and then diving back in (doesn't sound like much, but try it over and over again, especially as you tire), and doing 10 (or more) deck pull-ups each time you swim to the deep end for a set distance (hands on the edge of the pool shoulder width apart (but keep in mind, the closer the hands are to each other, the harder it is) and pull your body out of the water, straighten your arms, then lower your body back in the water (the lower your body goes in the water, the harder it is)).
Stroke efficiency has to do with maximizing propulsion via proper and complete stroke technique. If you need me to go over proper technique with you I will, but you probably already have that mastered. It has been shown that the most efficient stokes will require fewer strokes to go the same distance than the less efficient strokes. Translation: count your strokes to go one length of the pool....then try to lower that number. Just to give you perspective, 1500 meter Olympian and world record holder, Sun Yang, takes only 28 strokes per 50 meters. His stroke is long and there is very little time when one of his arms is not underwater propelling him forward. Dead space in a stroke and glide are not desired, so try and minimize that while keeping a steady pace and rhythm.
Body position is important because of drag - you want to eliminate unnecessary drag by making sure your body is sufficiently high in the water. When swimming longer distances, however, your body will naturally be lower in the water than when swimming sprints due to a slower kick and slower arm revolution, but you still need to make sure your hips are not too low and your legs are not working against you.
Okay....so now you've mastered those three things...but you still need some quality swim sessions. What do I consider quality? I love the long swims for the base and endurance and rhythm it gives me. I also think you need some spiffy interval work with a pace clock (think vomit-inducing running intervals) to gain some speed and to understand what it feels like to go fast. Interested's sessions are great, so definitely give them a whirl.....and then make some up on your own. The biggest thing you can do for yourself is to keep things enjoyable and interesting. It can get mighty boring in the pool swimming lap after lap after lap....and it can get pretty tiring to constantly be a slave to that pace clock.....so don't ever let those things ruin the love for you. Also keep in mind that what works for one won't necessarily work for another. Abhainn does not do any interval work, just all distance swimming, and look at his progress. While I suspect he would benefit from some of the shorter timed stuff while in training, it hasn't prevented him from being extremely competitive without it. My point is, I think you need both endurance and sprint training in your swimming session arsenal, but the successful volume/ratio of endurance to sprint training is specific, to some degree, to the swimmer. You will easily figure out what works best for you over this winter.
Hope this helps. 0 -
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Thank you so much! I really appreciate your taking the time to post this, I can't tell you how useful it is. What I take from it, is there's a place for all types of swimming- distance, reps, intervals, form exercises- in a training routine, and enjoyment is paramount to keeping the routine interesting and hence successful.
I'd agree with you that long distance swimming is of benefit for endurance (a caveat being my limited knowledge, but I think distance swimming (2km+) is overlooked in Triathlon training). I got conflicting advice on this on the main forum, but I guess the bottom line is what works for one won't work for all, and if it ain't broke, don't fix it. Certainly Abhainn has been making huge leaps through distance swimming only, and I'd have to say that's whats been of most benefit for me too. There's nothing like tired arms coming after 2km, to force you to concentrate on form and maximum stroke efficiency, over the next 2km. (That's what I've found, anyway).
I'm going to write up a structured program for swim work over the next few months, and see if adding a speedwork session, a longer rep session, and two or three distance sessions, will translate into continued improvement. Coming from a running background, I can see the intuitive sense in having interval/tempo/steady/LSR equivalents). Going eyeballs out can really make you appreciate the use of your stroke power and form efficiency.
Thanks again for all your help, (from day 1), its wonderful having a resource such as yourself on the forum 0 -
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@ Interested....+1 regarding shoulder issues. I sometimes forget that what is obvious to one person is not to another. Thank you for the clarification.
@ Kurt, aka Aqua-boy.....you took the words right out of my mouth regarding approaching swimming like running by incorporating intervals, tempos, and long slow swims into your rotation. While my swimming background did not preach that per se, we certainly did sprints and middle distance stuff on a regular basis, in fact, at most every swim session. Definitely have fun with it. My gut tells me you may need a little upper body strength attention, and then some work on stroke efficiently to reach the goals you desire. Incorporate that with a happy mix of sessions and I am confident the swim times you have set for yourself will be yours. One last thought, I swim alone 100% of the time, but for you to have someone to chase and race periodically might also elevate the game.
(And you are very welcome - ask anything anytime you want. I have learned so much from you and others on here that it is nice to (hopefully) return some of that back.)0 -
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Kurt Godel wrote: »What advice would you give to someone who underperformed on a hot day, being tired from stress, unfueled, and dizzy? Would you suggest they use this performance as a reliable yardstick to measure their form?
Thanks. Of course not. I was also a little grumpy when I wrote this.....so I was hot, tired, stressed, unfueled, dizzy AND grumpy. 0 -
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Swim
I had to do some marathon house cleaning after I got off from work this evening, but I was hell-bent on getting a short swim in before I called it a day. Usually, I am swimming as the sun is going down, but because I didn't get out to the pool until it was nearing 8pm, I was swimming as the moon was coming up. And what a gorgeous nearly-full moon it was!!
1,000 steady yards that washed this week's stresses away.0 -
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Hill from Hell, Part II
Today is Saturday, my LSR day of the week, and because I need to get as much downhill running in before the marathon in 5 weeks, and because I had so much fun last weekend running the hill known as the Blue Ridge Mountain, and because my good friends Kurt Godel and pgmcpq were so encouraging last weekend regarding the benefits I might derive from the type of run I did last weekend, I decided to give the hill another go this weekend with a few minor adjustments - I wanted to amp up the elevation gain and loss a bit.
A few particulars of the day: it was about 10 degrees hotter today than it was last Saturday, 88 degrees when I finished the run.....there was at times a pretty good wind blowing that I could tell was slowing me down.....and, much more traffic (holiday weekend) today, which meant I was constantly having to go from road running to "edge" running (running in the tall, uneven grass to the side of the road).
Highlights of the run:
Miles 0-3 - Uphill for the first three miles, and I was minding Kurt's words from last Saturday granting me permission to go slow on this particular type of long run. Relaxed I kept, and trudging I went. Other than my tummy giving me a bit of a fit (figured I could make it 6 to 8 miles before I had to stop for the loo), it was not a bad first three miles.
Miles 3-6 - I reached the peak and decided to see what was on the other side of the mountain, so I ran downhill to the next overlook, which was about 1 mile. I turned and headed back up to the peak, staying relaxed once more. I met a hiker on the road about 3/4 of the way to the top and he asked if I knew where a particular trail was near mile marker 21. I did not know where that particular trail was, but I told him I thought mile marker 21 was behind me and for him to keep going forward. I reached the top, and mile marker 21. UGH!!! I had told him incorrectly...now what to do?? Crap!! I couldn't stand the thought of this fellow hiking in the wrong direction due to my error, so I turned around and ran back down the mountain to find him. And find him I did after about a half a mile...and now my tummy was really giving me a fit, and I knew I could go not much further without an off road break. I shouted to the hiker to tell him my error, he thanked me, I turned, and as soon as I was out of vision I ducked into the woods knowing that I'd be passing him again because he wasn't that far behind me. Oh well - that was the least of my worries at that moment. The bigger issue was leaf identification. 
Back out of the woods and onto the road and nearing the top once more, I see my friend and he thanks me profusely. No problem, I tell him.
Miles 6-9 - Downhill all the way. Woo hoo!! The pace picked up as I went further down the mountain, I think in part because I became more and more relaxed with each stride I took. I passed several cyclists who had seen me running up the mountain, and all gave me shouts of respect which I returned to them. A park law enforcement SUV slowed as it approached me making me wonder if I was breaking some sort of law by running on the Drive. Great, I thought. The vehicle stopped, so I stopped. The window rolled down and the officer on the passenger side said...so, the two fastest people in Luray right here. Huh?? Oh....the officer driving the SUV was the fastest male from Luray in the triathlon two weeks ago - neat!! We chatted for a few minutes and I suggested that they both come running with me, but they didn't take my bait -I'm guessing I didn't smell too lovely or look too fetching....plus my mascara was all smudged around my eyes making me look like a wet raccoon. So off I went, all by myself, back to the bottom to get some water and two shot bloks.
Miles 9-11 - My plan was to go back up to the peak and down again - 3 miles uphill and 3 miles downhill, for a total of 15 miles for the day. The first of these miles up wasn't so bad - I stayed pretty relaxed and got into a rhythm that moved me uphill with not too much difficulty. It's not a fast rhythm, but it's a rhythm. The second mile uphill was still not so bad, but I could tell my body was starting to feel the affects of the day. When I got to the point where I turned around last weekend, I stopped, evaluated my legs, and then decided I'd only be doing myself harm by running up one more mile. Decision made - it'd be a shorter run than last weekend, but it would have more elevation gain than last weekend so I'd have to be happy with that.
Miles 11-13 - Downhill once again....and loving it. Body relaxed, gravity pulling, and pace speeding up. I thought then that I wished I had had someone to cart me up to the top of the mountain so I could get in more miles - I had more miles in me, just not more uphill miles. During my last mile home I checked my pace - 7:14, not bad. I relaxed some more and checked it again - 7:08, better. Turned the legs over faster - 7:04, liking this. Knew I was almost done so I kicked it in gear - 6:56, loving this. Finished the final mile in the parking lot trotting around the vehicles to cool down. I'm sure I looked like a sight.
Pros of this run - serious quality of uphill and downhill, and didn't totally wreck myself.
Cons of this run - shorter than planned (this actually was supposed to be a 20 miler LSR weekend, but I don't believe the plan called for 1,800+ feet of elevation gain) and my average pace was slower than last weekend - but heat, wind, holiday traffic, and increased elevation gain over a shorter distance certainly contributed to the slower pace.
The big question - with only 4 more LSRs until marathon weekend, should I do all remaining LSRs in this hilly fashion to get the legs ready for the 1,900 foot elevation drop of the course, or should I try to do some of them at a greater distance (20 miles) and closer to plan pace on a more level course? I do feel I have a good endurance base, and marathon distance does not scare me (at least today it doesn't), but I'm wondering what any of you (who have made it this far into my long report) would suggest.
Garmin data of today's run -
http://connect.garmin.com/activity/2175869300 -
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The big question - with only 4 more LSRs until marathon weekend, should I do all remaining LSRs in this hilly fashion to get the legs ready for the 1,900 foot elevation drop of the course, or should I try to do some of them at a greater distance (20 miles) and closer to plan pace on a more level course? I do feel I have a good endurance base, and marathon distance does not scare me (at least today it doesn't), but I'm wondering what any of you (who have made it this far into my long report) would suggest.
You have 4 weekend before Steamtown. You are not going to be doing long runs ever weekend. Typically people would do a long run (~20 miles) three weeks out, then start to taper ... maybe 17 and then 13. So you don't really have 4 more long runs - you probably have one more 20 miler.
Give your legs time to absorb today's work , If it were me - I would do one more 20 miler, and some shorter hill sessins (mid week). ... and if I were magically blessed it would be somewhere near the quality of work you've put in
Remember the golden rule : don't allow any one session compromise teh rest of the training -especially at this stage where 95% of the work in the bag. At this stage you are two of at most three weeks away from taper.0 -
The big question - with only 4 more LSRs until marathon weekend, should I do all remaining LSRs in this hilly fashion to get the legs ready for the 1,900 foot elevation drop of the course, or should I try to do some of them at a greater distance (20 miles) and closer to plan pace on a more level course? I do feel I have a good endurance base, and marathon distance does not scare me (at least today it doesn't), but I'm wondering what any of you (who have made it this far into my long report) would suggest.
20 miles on a very hilly course can often equate to a flat marathon, effort-wise, so I certainly wouldn't worry about not hitting the full 20 of the plan. Your legs will have gotten the hills benefit from todays run (and I'm guessing they are aching in strange places after that last fast downhill?), so continue doing these, but do a couple of your LSR's on the flat, to help with your endurance (no problem there) and your race prep confidence (which might use a little nudging, its a bit early for second-guessing just now;)).
So if you've 4 LSR's left; do 2 on similar hilly runs (and maybe bump up the distance by a mile or two from todays); 2 as prescribed by the program, on the flat (and for your own sanity, do the longest one on the flat, just so you can look back knowing you ticked that box, when taper madness sets in proper).0 -
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Oh well - that was the least of my worries at that moment. The bigger issue was leaf identification.
Lol i spat out my coffee chuckling away to the thought of you looking for suitable leafage:) Good hilly run and you sound like you enjoyed it, nice to have such fantastic training options and surroundings right on your doorstep.0 -
Just catching up on your log - I've been missing it since it's been hiding over here with the adventurer's
That was a great long run on Saturday - so much more fun and entertaining than my non-event LSRs!
What date is your marathon again? I hope your training plan includes bottles of ice cold beery goodness too...:D If not, you don't know what you're missing! 0 -
Odin Drab Firefighter wrote: »nice to have such fantastic training options and surroundings right on your doorstep.
It sounds aweome doesn't it?! A few days at the DD training camp is definitely in my 5 year plan!
Dory I've trained with the boys, next I want to train with the men!! 0 -
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@ jb....yeah, i was wishing I had my Audobon pocket leaf identification book with its nice soft pages with me at that very moment....but, alas, I went conservative and chose a plant that I recognized as a weed that I've seen growing in my flower beds. Nice big leaves, and in abundance where I happened to, um, "squat".
@ cl.....no worries, plus I know how busy you are with all the interviews and glamour shoots. The marathon is Sunday, October 7th. I don't believe I've had a sip of the spirits since I was in Ireland. :eek: It does you and the Clown no harm, that's for sure....and hubby says beer is his favorite recovery drink after a long bike ride. And you (and digs) have a standing reservation at the DD training camp! Woo hoo!! That would be a blast!
@ griffin.....hilarious! BUT, actually I learned something quite valuable - that in addition to being a characteristic of poison ivy and poison oak, leaves with a waxy coating make for a poor wipe. Now that's some sound advice....and perhaps the reason I had to use so many leaves.
@ catweazle....I believe it was in your log I read about an emergency hedge moment in someone's yard during one of your races a year or more back. In any event, you are who popped in my mind as I was hopping over the rock wall and "trotting" into the woods.0 -
@ griffin.....hilarious! BUT, actually I learned something quite valuable - that in addition to being a characteristic of poison ivy and poison oak, leaves with a waxy coating make for a poor wipe. Now that's some sound advice....and perhaps the reason I had to use so many leaves.
I think I've finally found a practical use for those furry critters that like to accompany you on your runs!!!! (no pun intended)0 -
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3tTHn2tHhcI
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