DCM Class of 2011- the continuing challenge

Younganne

i hope your injuries clear up.

I had 1.57 in the half marathon this year also in dublin and 4.27 in the marathon so we have similar times. I passed through halfway in 2.11 but found mile 12 - 16 very hard.. i kind of relaxed after that and had a steady run from there on in...

That's some achievement from your training partner, congrats to them, theres not many who have done all 32 marathons... is that a woman from Dundalk, a collegue of mime mentioned a friend of hers who is 64 and has done all 32 marathons??
I hope to improve on all my times in teh next 12 mths and if I follow Ecoli's advice as above probably will...as it is last year i did 10m in 98, this ye 92, last yr 1/2 mar in 2.02, this year 1.57 so that is the aerobic improvement i think he is taking about....so onwads & upwards or (downward with the times):)

Jimh

No - He is from Athboy and Fr Murphy's AC - said this was the last one he was running but I think he may change his mind now:)

ecoli

kit3 wrote: »

Does this progression go on indefinately or do you reach a plateau from where you need speed work to progress further ? I started "running" in March 2009 and my natural easy run pace was 12 minute miles (practically a walk by most people's standard on here). At this stage my natural easy run pace is about 9.50 min miles. Should this keep going down with more miles put in or will it stop without specific speed work ? Thanks

You will see progression up until a point. With easy running as your mileage builds up and your aerobic capacity develops you begin to get less return from the work you put in. If you look to elite and well trained athletes they are looking to take seconds off their time as opposed to the minutes simply because they have to put in more hard work to get less gains this is where speedwork comes into in.

Think of it like building a car we can build the engine up only to a certain point after which it doesnt matter how much horse power we put into it, it wont get any faster unless we are able to transfer all this power into increase of speed. Speed work is like fine tuning the gears to allow you to translate this built up power into speed.

Simply put you can build up your aerobic capacity to a point where you are able to run say for example 8 min miles all day This is all well and good but if your body goes into shock running say 7.50 min miles and cant handle it then it doesnt matter how much strength you have because it will count for nothing this is where "speed work" comes into play

I have put his in inverted comma's because put simply road runners dont do speed work in the true sense. A road runners aim is to make there body more efficient at running higher speeds so that the body can sustain these paces on race day. This is done in a number of ways such as Tempos, intervals, progressions, fartlek, hills, form drills and strides. Most people feel that you need to come away from a session ready to collapse or puke but to be honest this is running to hard you should always feel like if you needed to you could be able to do one more rep.

Sorry about the long winded speeches I ramble and digress from the point sometimes:o:D

red face dave

ecoli wrote: »

You will see progression up until a point. With easy running as your mileage builds up and your aerobic capacity develops you begin to get less return from the work you put in. If you look to elite and well trained athletes they are looking to take seconds off their time as opposed to the minutes simply because they have to put in more hard work to get less gains this is where speedwork comes into in.

Think of it like building a car we can build the engine up only to a certain point after which it doesnt matter how much horse power we put into it, it wont get any faster unless we are able to transfer all this power into increase of speed. Speed work is like fine tuning the gears to allow you to translate this built up power into speed.

Simply put you can build up your aerobic capacity to a point where you are able to run say for example 8 min miles all day This is all well and good but if your body goes into shock running say 7.50 min miles and cant handle it then it doesnt matter how much strength you have because it will count for nothing this is where "speed work" comes into play

I have put his in inverted comma's because put simply road runners dont do speed work in the true sense. A road runners aim is to make there body more efficient at running higher speeds so that the body can sustain these paces on race day. This is done in a number of ways such as Tempos, intervals, progressions, fartlek, hills, form drills and strides. Most people feel that you need to come away from a session ready to collapse or puke but to be honest this is running to hard you should always feel like if you needed to you could be able to do one more rep.

Sorry about the long winded speeches I ramble and digress from the point sometimes:o:D

Loving the replies Ecoli.:)

kit3

Thanks for the reply. very interesting to see the theory. Will enjoy trying it out as we go along. Must say I have modest expectations - have no natural speed but will enjoy the challenge and love getting out. roll on tomorrow lunchtime:)

ecoli wrote: »

You will see progression up until a point. With easy running as your mileage builds up and your aerobic capacity develops you begin to get less return from the work you put in. If you look to elite and well trained athletes they are looking to take seconds off their time as opposed to the minutes simply because they have to put in more hard work to get less gains this is where speedwork comes into in.

Think of it like building a car we can build the engine up only to a certain point after which it doesnt matter how much horse power we put into it, it wont get any faster unless we are able to transfer all this power into increase of speed. Speed work is like fine tuning the gears to allow you to translate this built up power into speed.

Simply put you can build up your aerobic capacity to a point where you are able to run say for example 8 min miles all day This is all well and good but if your body goes into shock running say 7.50 min miles and cant handle it then it doesnt matter how much strength you have because it will count for nothing this is where "speed work" comes into play

I have put his in inverted comma's because put simply road runners dont do speed work in the true sense. A road runners aim is to make there body more efficient at running higher speeds so that the body can sustain these paces on race day. This is done in a number of ways such as Tempos, intervals, progressions, fartlek, hills, form drills and strides. Most people feel that you need to come away from a session ready to collapse or puke but to be honest this is running to hard you should always feel like if you needed to you could be able to do one more rep.

Sorry about the long winded speeches I ramble and digress from the point sometimes:o:D

Nules10

red face dave wrote: »

Loving the replies Ecoli.:)

+1 on the replies ecoli

barking1503

In terms of easy pace. What pace did you do these runs prior to the marathon? Best advice would be you should be able to hold a conversation if not you are running too fast. Running calculators such as Mcmillan/ Runningforfitness.org/Runbayou.com are all great websites which you can input your most recent race results in order to gain a rough idea of what paces you should be running at but should be used as a guide moreso than an exact figure as you have to take into account weather, personal circumstances and run profile and adjust accordingly which is why i stress trying to learn to listening to your body[/QUOTE]

Thanks a mill e coli. I can definately hold a conversation training running, I could go forever at my DCM training pace which was 11 min miles. Prior to that I was prob a 10 min miler and for a 10m race used to run between 9-9.30 (but wouldn't be chatting at this pace for me:(). when I started running 2 yrs ago I got as far as 7 min miles over a 3 mile course but that is a distant memory to me now!!!
Injury aside, I really enjoyed the slow pace of the DCM training - and had no time expectations for the race. I was in a brill group of about 13 all at similar level.
My problem now is that I feel I have gotten slower. If the training run pace upped even a bit I felt it straight away and found it tough enough. Hopefully this thread and your great advice will help to see if I can get out of my current 11mm rut and get some kind of speed up (though sometimes wonder if I have it in me at all).
BTW if I don't stop my post DCM eating I will have a ton more weight to drag around which won't help my speed work;)
sorry all for long post..............

jamesmurphy1

ecoli wrote: »

You will see progression up until a point. With easy running as your mileage builds up and your aerobic capacity develops you begin to get less return from the work you put in. If you look to elite and well trained athletes they are looking to take seconds off their time as opposed to the minutes simply because they have to put in more hard work to get less gains this is where speedwork comes into in.

Think of it like building a car we can build the engine up only to a certain point after which it doesnt matter how much horse power we put into it, it wont get any faster unless we are able to transfer all this power into increase of speed. Speed work is like fine tuning the gears to allow you to translate this built up power into speed.

Simply put you can build up your aerobic capacity to a point where you are able to run say for example 8 min miles all day This is all well and good but if your body goes into shock running say 7.50 min miles and cant handle it then it doesnt matter how much strength you have because it will count for nothing this is where "speed work" comes into play

I have put his in inverted comma's because put simply road runners dont do speed work in the true sense. A road runners aim is to make there body more efficient at running higher speeds so that the body can sustain these paces on race day. This is done in a number of ways such as Tempos, intervals, progressions, fartlek, hills, form drills and strides. Most people feel that you need to come away from a session ready to collapse or puke but to be honest this is running to hard you should always feel like if you needed to you could be able to do one more rep.

Sorry about the long winded speeches I ramble and digress from the point sometimes:o:D

Hi All
Will be keeping an eye on this thread as I enjoyed the novice one. My question is I did my second DCM marathon this year. Lasy year 04.56 expected to do 04.30. This year 04.54 again expected to do 04.30. Some of my other times H/M 02.08 last year and this year 02.00 Athlone this year 03.17. Frank Duffy this year 01.31. Have run several 4 and 5 mile races over the last 2 years. I was following the HH Novice 2 program and stuck to it fairly well. This years marathon did not feel so good but finished it but was very disappointed with my time. Question is how can I improve my times over the winter I am also thinking of joining a club would that help I am 53 so not how to improve have only being running 3 years

Younganne

ecoli wrote: »

Sorry about the long winded speeches I ramble and digress from the point sometimes:o:D

Ramble away Ecoli it makes for fascinating reading especially for me as i know nadda about the "science" of running.

I do find myself reading more on it thought at the moment!!

I had a lovely long post done last night and my system crashed and i lost it and didn't have the time to retype:o

ecoli

jamesmurphy1 wrote: »

Hi All
Will be keeping an eye on this thread as I enjoyed the novice one. My question is I did my second DCM marathon this year. Lasy year 04.56 expected to do 04.30. This year 04.54 again expected to do 04.30. Some of my other times H/M 02.08 last year and this year 02.00 Athlone this year 03.17. Frank Duffy this year 01.31. Have run several 4 and 5 mile races over the last 2 years. I was following the HH Novice 2 program and stuck to it fairly well. This years marathon did not feel so good but finished it but was very disappointed with my time. Question is how can I improve my times over the winter I am also thinking of joining a club would that help I am 53 so not how to improve have only being running 3 years

Age is not a limiting factor especially to people coming to the sport late. It is true that your peak age in terms of top level running (in a well trained athlete) is roughly 28 and after this it is your Vo2 Max* which begins to degenerate however this has very little influence on your aerobic base and as such people who come to the sport late can improve for years after this point by aiming their training around this.

*Vo2 max is basically the amount of oxygen your blood can transport to the muscles by the blood. More oxygen means longer a pace can be sustained.

This is why you will see many Boardsie's hitting PBs into their late 30s and 40s

You mentioned you followed plans perviously, did you do anything in between the plans? time off usually means that your body spends the first few weeks of the training plan trying to get back to the point of fitness it was at rather than improving. You do see some benefit simply because its easier to regain fitness than it is to attain it in the first place.

Club is a good start as not only do you get advice etc but you get the motivation in training and people pushing you. Its easier to duck out of a run when you are self motivating but is slightly harder when you know your absence will be noted by someone you train with

ecoli

barking1503 wrote: »

Thanks a mill e coli. I can definately hold a conversation training running, I could go forever at my DCM training pace which was 11 min miles. Prior to that I was prob a 10 min miler and for a 10m race used to run between 9-9.30 (but wouldn't be chatting at this pace for me:(). when I started running 2 yrs ago I got as far as 7 min miles over a 3 mile course but that is a distant memory to me now!!!
Injury aside, I really enjoyed the slow pace of the DCM training - and had no time expectations for the race. I was in a brill group of about 13 all at similar level.
My problem now is that I feel I have gotten slower. If the training run pace upped even a bit I felt it straight away and found it tough enough. Hopefully this thread and your great advice will help to see if I can get out of my current 11mm rut and get some kind of speed up (though sometimes wonder if I have it in me at all).

This is one of the most common mistakes to make in running. often people become obsessed with their easy running pace and think this is the only indication of fitness and as such they are happy when they are quicker than normal. Your pace variation between training for the different distances means that you may have been pushing it little too hard on your runs ( a recipe for injury)
You easy pace when training from 5k - marathon should be the same. As you get fitter this time will come down naturally but dont push it. There is a good saying amongst runners which says "hard days hard easy days easy" as such save you faster running for the days of sessions the rest should be aimed towards recovery while also developing aerobic base. Simply put if you are running your easy days too hard you are not getting a chance to recover and the recovery period is actually where you make your gains believe it or not.

Your hard days are to break the body down and stress it while recovery days are when they body builds back up stronger making it able to cope better to the next stress. This principle is the basis of most forms of conditioning training (ie endurance sports)

meathcountysec

Jimh wrote: »

No - He is from Athboy and Fr Murphy's AC - said this was the last one he was running but I think he may change his mind now:)

He's a clubmate of mine. He was/is delighted with his performance and may have snatched an age-group placing in the National Marathon Champs to boot.

jamesmurphy1

ecoli wrote: »

Age is not a limiting factor especially to people coming to the sport late. It is true that your peak age in terms of top level running (in a well trained athlete) is roughly 28 and after this it is your Vo2 Max* which begins to degenerate however this has very little influence on your aerobic base and as such people who come to the sport late can improve for years after this point by aiming their training around this.

*Vo2 max is basically the amount of oxygen your blood can transport to the muscles by the blood. More oxygen means longer a pace can be sustained.

This is why you will see many Boardsie's hitting PBs into their late 30s and 40s

You mentioned you followed plans perviously, did you do anything in between the plans? time off usually means that your body spends the first few weeks of the training plan trying to get back to the point of fitness it was at rather than improving. You do see some benefit simply because its easier to regain fitness than it is to attain it in the first place.

Club is a good start as not only do you get advice etc but you get the motivation in training and people pushing you. Its easier to duck out of a run when you are self motivating but is slightly harder when you know your absence will be noted by someone you train with

Yes I run all year every week outside of marathon programs I do 3 runs a week averaging 15 miles per week and 2 sessions in the gym. When I am off work I run some of the BHAA races. What annoyed me was all my other times suggest that 04.30 was possible but on both ocaddions I fell short. I was thinking of doing a lot of speed work through the winter

rainbow kirby

You would probably notice more of a difference (to your marathon times and your shorter-distance times) if you could bring your average weekly mileage up all year round - 15mpw is quite low.

jamesmurphy1

15m average per week is only outside my 20 week marathon program obviously during this time the miles go up. I thought 15m a week was enough to keep you in shape and ticking over.

ecoli

jamesmurphy1 wrote: »

15m average per week is only outside my 20 week marathon program obviously during this time the miles go up. I thought 15m a week was enough to keep you in shape and ticking over.

I think RK is right speedwork is not your limiting factor its strength. 15 mile a week might be able to keep you ticking over in terms of your current ability but you will have to progress if you are looking towards increasing it slowly over the course of a few months so perhaps

Month 1 - 15 mpw
Month 2 - 20 mpw
Month 3 - 20 mpw
Month 4 - 25 mpw
Month 5 - 25 mpw

This wont always involve increasing time spent. Some of this increase in mileage will simply come from fitness increases and drop in natural easy run pace. Speed work will also come into this as it can help boost the fitness which as a result will mean you will be able to get more mileage to time spent training

Younganne

ok Question?

When we are doing the easy pace is this the same as the LSR pace we previously trained or should it be a little faster?

I just did 4 m at avg pace of 11.06

m1=11.06, m2=11.06, m3=11.07, m4 =11.04 is this too slow or should i gradually increase it as the recovery weeks go on....

what do you use to put into the predicator, your fastest recent race or marathon time even thought this would give slow times for all the different levels, threshold, per mile, easy etc....

Younganne

if i put my marathon time (4:27:17) into this http://www.runbayou.com/jackd.htm i get easy pace of 11:49 per mile

If i put my half time(1:57) in i get easy pace of 10.49...so which is the most beneficial to follow....

ecoli

Younganne wrote: »

if i put my marathon time (4:27:17) into this http://www.runbayou.com/jackd.htm i get easy pace of 11:49 per mile

If i put my half time(1:57) in i get easy pace of 10.49...so which is the most beneficial to follow....

This is where listening to your body comes into play. Normally these calculators have a tendency to favour shorter distances especially if any athlete is lacking in strength and there is a big drop off when comparing their times.

Looking at your last run you were running 11.05 roughly and asking whether this was too slow. This would indicate to me that you werent killing yourself and that its close enough to your 10.49 predicted time off the calculator (other calculators give ranges) so I say you run was perfect and you HM times would be a good indicator for the calculator figures

Younganne

thanks for the swift reply Ecoli... yes very comfortable run, HR avg 149

one more question...i do Kettlebell once a week on Thursday, would it be advisable to take another week off or go back to it tomorrow?? its 75 mins exercise and i lift 7.5 kg bell??

Probably see how i feel but don't want to risk injury if recovery plan doesn't include weight for another week or so??

shazkea

Younganne wrote: »

if i put my marathon time (4:27:17) into this http://www.runbayou.com/jackd.htm i get easy pace of 11:49 per mile

If i put my half time(1:57) in i get easy pace of 10.49...so which is the most beneficial to follow....

Good question, I was changing the distances to suit myself so never had the same pace!

ecoli wrote: »

This is where listening to your body comes into play. Normally these calculators have a tendency to favour shorter distances especially if any athlete is lacking in strength and there is a big drop off when comparing their times.

Ecoli, I'm just coming back from a few months out from running so at the moment I am running to how I feel. Garmin is on but not checking the pace.
Generally the pace is faster than the calcs are telling me it should be. I assume this is fine as long as I feel comfortable during the easy runs or should I really slow down and stick to pace. For example last easy run actual pace was 09:50 and calcs are telling me ~11. I felt fine at the pace.
When I start back on harder runs (hills, intervals etc) I will stick more to the planned paces

menoscemo

Younganne wrote: »

thanks for the swift reply Ecoli... yes very comfortable run, HR avg 149

149 avg HR may or may not be fine depending on what is your max HR. If your max was 200 it would be great as 149 is 75% of max. If your max is 170 then 149 would be too high (88%)

As a general rule your Easy (aerobic runs) should be less than 80% max HR and recovery runs should be less than 75%. (I nabbed this from P&D).

Younganne

thanks menoscemo, yes my max is roughly 200+ (reached 197 max in a 10k race, 198 max in half)

I know its hard to guess Max HR but was told flat out running at end of race will give a good indication

menoscemo

Younganne wrote: »

thanks menoscemo, yes my max is roughly 200+ (reached 197 max in a 10k race, 198 max in half)

I know its hard to guess Max HR but was told flat out running at end of race will give a good indication

In that case 149 av seems perfect for an 'easy run'. Anything under 160 is fine for you.

barking1503

ecoli wrote: »

This is one of the most common mistakes to make in running. often people become obsessed with their easy running pace and think this is the only indication of fitness and as such they are happy when they are quicker than normal. Your pace variation between training for the different distances means that you may have been pushing it little too hard on your runs ( a recipe for injury)
You easy pace when training from 5k - marathon should be the same. As you get fitter this time will come down naturally but dont push it. There is a good saying amongst runners which says "hard days hard easy days easy" as such save you faster running for the days of sessions the rest should be aimed towards recovery while also developing aerobic base. Simply put if you are running your easy days too hard you are not getting a chance to recover and the recovery period is actually where you make your gains believe it or not.

Your hard days are to break the body down and stress it while recovery days are when they body builds back up stronger making it able to cope better to the next stress. This principle is the basis of most forms of conditioning training (ie endurance sports)

E coli, Thanks again for another really helpful answer. I hate asking again, but at your leisure would you pls clarify what you term as "hard days" versus the easy days?
First post DCM run tonight, did 4 miles and really enjoyed but going to have to opt out for another while, ankle felt it afterward and fairly painful. Going mad, dying to get back to regular runs.....:(

galwayhooker

Great to see this new thread - gives me motivation to get out running over winter.Was so happy with my time for my first mararhon last week - 3hr 19 Have lost a stone since started proper training in sept.Also i highly recommend hot yoga to help runners stamina
When i was at mile 20 and could start to feel the pain i started to think what our instructor in yoga keeps saying "hips forward and upper body back" .Def helped me.
Did no training last week - went to physio for massage and told her how left side of my left foot was sore.She reckons it could have been a touch of tendonitis and to take it easy.Felt fine few days after - even managed to get about in high heels fri night.Decided to try to get out for slow short run but as soon as i started to run the back of my left calf was a bit sore.Ran very slow for a minute and thought pain was gone but when i finished my run my calf was in agony.Took it easy and went to hot yoga mon and it seems ok again but am nervous to go out again in case.
Any advice as to what i should do?

menoscemo

galwayhooker wrote: »

Great to see this new thread - gives me motivation to get out running over winter.Was so happy with my time for my first mararhon last week - 3hr 19

Weren't you in our 4hr group?

Brianderunner

menoscemo wrote: »

Weren't you in our 4hr group?

He was, until halfway. Ever heard of a negative split? :pac:

galwayhooker

menoscemo wrote: »

galwayhooker wrote: »

Great to see this new thread - gives me motivation to get out running over winter.Was so happy with my time for my first mararhon last week - 3hr 19

Weren't you in our 4hr group?

I was - my time was 3 hrs 52 min and 19 sec !!! - doh I was getting excited again remembering marathon day that I must have been typing too fast

Would love to head out for long runs with ye sat morn but am based here in Navan but some morn if I am up and about early and heading to dub for day will def join ye

galwayhooker

menoscemo wrote: »

galwayhooker wrote: »

Great to see this new thread - gives me motivation to get out running over winter.Was so happy with my time for my first mararhon last week - 3hr 19

Weren't you in our 4hr group?

I was - my time was 3 hrs 52 min and 19 sec !!! - doh I was getting excited again remembering marathon day that I must have been typing too fast

Would love to head out for long runs with ye sat morn but am based here in Navan but some morn if I am up and about early and heading to dub for day will def join ye