The spirit world

Whispered

parrai wrote: »

Mr Stuffins,

You are asking a lot of questions, my friend...

He's also answering loads of questions, you know, as opposed to avoiding them.

MrStuffins

parrai wrote: »

Now that is all lovely, can you now point me to the Super Human Intelligent aliens?

Yes, that way! --->

Antikythera

parrai wrote: »

Just watched the Dawkins interviews...
Thought it was really interesting when it was put to him about a part of his book that he seemes excited about, where he was speculating about 'super human' aliens, which require a leap of faith, thought the look on his face was priceless when he was pulled up on it!

I thought the face on the disingenuous idiot 'putting it to him' was more telling.

parrai

Mr Stuffins

Would you agree with the following?

People can believe, and should be allowed to believe whatever they want. Equality across all spectrums, whatever they are. Live and let live without ridicule.

MrStuffins

parrai wrote: »

Mr Stuffins

Would you agree with the following?

People can believe, and should be allowed to believe whatever they want. Equality across all spectrums, whatever they are. Live and let live without ridicule.

Yes, people SHOULD be able to believe what they want but if they choose to do so they should ensure their beliefs are no more important than others and they have no right to infringe on others.

I have no idea what this has to do with the discussion.

For someone who was shouting about proof for ages, you're awfully quick to start pulling the "belief" card.

The discussion you started was about how Dawkins was pulled up because he needed a leap of faith.

Probability required no faith.

I've answered your questiosn, you still haven't told me why you think it is 100% impossible for some sort of life-form to exist on one of the billions of trillions of planets in the universe, despite the fact that we already know there is life on one of them, this one.

Care to answer?

parrai

MrStuffins wrote: »

Yes, people SHOULD be able to believe what they want but if they choose to do so they should ensure their beliefs are no more important than others and they have no right to infringe on others.

Agreed. Richard Dawkins does not accept this.

MrStuffins wrote: »

I have no idea what this has to do with the discussion.

Now you do.

MrStuffins wrote: »

For someone who was shouting about proof for ages, you're awfully quick to start pulling the "belief" card.

I don't care about anything regarding belief. I have regard for people though. I take everyone on an individual scale. I don't block out people because of their views... I have watched hours of footage on this guy, I especially liked when he was asked about Santa Claus and his daughter. He was so anal about it, he said that if he had to do it all again, he probably wouldn't have told her there was a santa claus, just because of his views...

That, my friend, is a sad man

This is not for you to take insult from...

As you go on through life, if you are gaining wisdom, you'll see all this is crap!!! On the greater scale of things, it doesn't matter.

MrStuffins wrote: »

The discussion you started was about how Dawkins was pulled up because he needed a leap of faith.

No matter what way you swing it, there's no aliens now, there just isn't, like there is no god...

MrStuffins wrote: »

I've answered your questions, you still haven't told me why you think it is 100% impossible for some sort of life-form to exist on one of the billions of trillions of planets in the universe, despite the fact that we already know there is life on one of them, this one.

Care to answer?

Because buddy, this is just an internet forum, where people come to chat, have a laugh and sometimes discuss cool things, and this for me like god for you,just isn't interesting enough to be thinking about, until I see UFOs...

MrStuffins

parrai wrote: »

Agreed. Richard Dawkins does not accept this.

You're wrong. It is quite evident that you have no idea about the man or his writings. if you had even read ONE of his books you would realise that your sentence here is a fallacy.

I don't care about anything regarding belief. I have regard for people though. I take everyone on an individual scale. I don't block out people because of their views... I have watched hours of footage on this guy, I especially liked when he was asked about Santa Claus and his daughter. He was so anal about it, he said that if he had to do it all again, he probably wouldn't have told her there was a santa claus, just because of his views...

That, my friend, is a sad man

This is not for you to take insult from...

Well that is your opinion on the guy as a man. THis has nothing to do with what we were talking about.

No matter what way you swing it, there's no aliens now, there just isn't, like there is no god...

This is your opinion, you have established that well. But what I have yet to hear from you is WHY this is your opinion. WHY don't you think there are aliens? Why is it that you think that life does not exist on other planets?

You do realise it's possible that there is life out there that can't reach us right? AFter all, we exist and we can't reach them!

Because buddy, this is just an internet forum, where people come to chat, have a laugh and sometimes discuss cool things, and this for me like god for you,just isn't interesting enough to be thinking about, until I see UFOs...

So wait........... you think that because there are no UFOs there is no life in the infinite universe?

You think it's impossible that somewhere in the universe there is a life and they just can't reach us?

Because i've got news for you buddy, we exist and we can't even send men to Mars, one of our neighbours.


I want to know WHY!!! WHY!!!! don't you think it is impossible?

if your only reason is because you haven't seen UFOs then i'm afraid your points aren't worth listening to! That is the flimsiest of flimsey arguments. it's actually quite laughable!

HLecter

ah yes, dawkins and god. place these two words in any topic whatsoever and watch the topic vanish and the petty battle unfold.

KeithAFC

MrStuffins wrote: »

If you believe this then you don't know what faith and probability are!

To have faith in God is to say that no matter what people tell you and no matter what proof you might have AGAINST there being a God, you should believe it anyway because it is fact.

To say something is probable is to say that it may or may not be true, but the option most likely is that it IS true. But only that it's LIKELY to be true, not that it is sure to be true.

I'm seriously not sure why people are finding it hard to understand this. It's very straight forward.

But it is still based on "faith". You have faith in something that it might be true and then you test it out. Obviously with the concept of god, that is impossible but Dawkins said there is probably Aliens on other planets. With no proof and although, it most likely is possible, he is still using faith because he believes it could be possible.

ColeTrain

HLecter wrote: »

ah yes, dawkins and god. place these two words in any topic whatsoever and watch the topic vanish and the petty battle unfold.

Let's try to bring it back on topic then.

Anyone in AH believe in spirits or the powers of physics?

This is what I expect

HLecter

ColeTrain wrote: »

Let's try to bring it back on topic then.

Anyone in AH believe in spirits or the powers of physics?

This is what I expect

Idea of thread title - discuss subject mentioned :eek:,

Forum for dicky dawkins discussion.
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/forumdisplay.php?f=351

alternatively ...... start a separate:eek: thread

Amalgam

ColeTrain wrote: »

Let's try to bring it back on topic then.

Anyone in AH believe in spirits or the powers of physics?

This is what I expect

Daniel believes. Don't mention Casper.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cRBimlLXvSY

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l3rzKsXnS-E

ColeTrain

HLecter wrote: »

Idea of thread title - discuss subject mentioned :eek:,

Forum for dicky dawkins discussion.
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/forumdisplay.php?f=351

alternatively ...... start a separate:eek: thread

Do you believe in spirits :eek:

Pompey Magnus

KeithAFC wrote: »

But it is still based on "faith". You have faith in something that it might be true and then you test it out. Obviously with the concept of god, that is impossible but Dawkins said there is probably Aliens on other planets. With no proof and although, it most likely is possible, he is still using faith because he believes it could be possible.

Going by the dictionary definition of faith it is a "firm belief in something for which there is no proof". Firstly I would question just how firmly Dawkins does believe there is life on other planets, I would think he bases his claim on solely on current scientific understanding and that does not rule out life on other planets, if that was to change I am pretty sure he would change his opinion with it.

Secondly whilst indeed there is no proof of extraterrestrial life I think we can rephrase this a little, I imagine Dawkins believes:

(1) that there are other planets orbiting other stars - This has been proven

(2) that life can exist on a planet found in the goldilocks zone which is a habitable distance from the star it orbits provided the planet contains liquid water, is off approximately the same size as Earth and certain other required criteria are met - This has been proven here on Earth

(3) that, by the laws of probability, those conditions which our current scientific understanding determining habitability of a planet are extremely likely to be met than by just 1 planet out of the trillions of planets in the Universe.

Dawkins is basing his claim on probability and odds, he is basically saying the odds of the right conditions for life being found on a planet are much less than say 1 in, say, 100,000,000,000,000 (I'm sure there are way more planets than this btw so it is probably much higher odds). Those who disagree are saying that the odds of the right conditions being met are much, much higher.

To say Dawkins has faith in the existence of extraterrestrial life is the same as saying Paddy Power has "faith" in Barcelona winning the Champions League this season.

HLecter

ColeTrain wrote: »

Do you believe in spirits :eek:

nope, but congrats for staying on topic.

Ruu_Old

I thought this was about Fergus Gibson, disappointing.

ColeTrain

HLecter wrote: »

nope, but congrats for staying on topic.

You too. I now know your opinion on this topic after 3 posts.

HLecter

ColeTrain wrote: »

You too. I now know your opinion on this topic after 3 posts.

Success.

KeithAFC

Pompey Magnus wrote: »

Going by the dictionary definition of faith it is a "firm belief in something for which there is no proof". Firstly I would question just how firmly Dawkins does believe there is life on other planets, I would think he bases his claim on solely on current scientific understanding and that does not rule out life on other planets, if that was to change I am pretty sure he would change his opinion with it.

Secondly whilst indeed there is no proof of extraterrestrial life I think we can rephrase this a little, I imagine Dawkins believes:

(1) that there are other planets orbiting other stars - This has been proven

(2) that life can exist on a planet found in the goldilocks zone which is a habitable distance from the star it orbits provided the planet contains liquid water, is off approximately the same size as Earth and certain other required criteria are met - This has been proven here on Earth

(3) that, by the laws of probability, those conditions which our current scientific understanding determining habitability of a planet are extremely likely to be met than by just 1 planet out of the trillions of planets in the Universe.

Dawkins is basing his claim on probability and odds, he is basically saying the odds of the right conditions for life being found on a planet are much less than say 1 in, say, 100,000,000,000,000 (I'm sure there are way more planets than this btw so it is probably much higher odds). Those who disagree are saying that the odds of the right conditions being met are much, much higher.

To say Dawkins has faith in the existence of extraterrestrial life is the same as saying Paddy Power has "faith" in Barcelona winning the Champions League this season.

But it all comes down to scientific evidence and we can discuss probability all day but Dawkins as a scientist would need to see the evidence. There is no evidence of other life in the universe as we know it.

There could well be but then religious people will just say there could well be a god or a different "plane" to this one on earth. Obviously there is more logic and understanding to possible life on other planets but to say it is probable is still using faith because we don't have physical evidence or any evidence of any kind.

briany

MrStuffins wrote: »

It wasn't that my parents kept him away from it, it was just a consequence of the school he was in (he didn't learn irish either).

He wasn't forced to sit through Religion classes or Irish classes? The special school element aside, it sounds like an enviable education.

MrStuffins

KeithAFC wrote: »

it most likely is possible.......

Now, you just agreed with Dawkins. He said its most likely possible and so did you.

To say something is possible or probable requires no faith whatsoever. If you think it does then you misunderstand faith, probability or both!

It's possible that Barack Obama will have a No.1 single with a cover of Firestarter by Prodigy. Now its very probable that he won't, but it requires no faith on my part to acknowledge either of these things.

MrStuffins

KeithAFC wrote: »

Pompey Magnus wrote: »

Going by the dictionary definition of faith it is a "firm belief in something for which there is no proof". Firstly I would question just how firmly Dawkins does believe there is life on other planets, I would think he bases his claim on solely on current scientific understanding and that does not rule out life on other planets, if that was to change I am pretty sure he would change his opinion with it.

Secondly whilst indeed there is no proof of extraterrestrial life I think we can rephrase this a little, I imagine Dawkins believes:

(1) that there are other planets orbiting other stars - This has been proven

(2) that life can exist on a planet found in the goldilocks zone which is a habitable distance from the star it orbits provided the planet contains liquid water, is off approximately the same size as Earth and certain other required criteria are met - This has been proven here on Earth

(3) that, by the laws of probability, those conditions which our current scientific understanding determining habitability of a planet are extremely likely to be met than by just 1 planet out of the trillions of planets in the Universe.

Dawkins is basing his claim on probability and odds, he is basically saying the odds of the right conditions for life being found on a planet are much less than say 1 in, say, 100,000,000,000,000 (I'm sure there are way more planets than this btw so it is probably much higher odds). Those who disagree are saying that the odds of the right conditions being met are much, much higher.

To say Dawkins has faith in the existence of extraterrestrial life is the same as saying Paddy Power has "faith" in Barcelona winning the Champions League this season.

But it all comes down to scientific evidence and we can discuss probability all day but Dawkins as a scientist would need to see the evidence. There is no evidence of other life in the universe as we know it.

There could well be but then religious people will just say there could well be a god or a different "plane" to this one on earth. Obviously there is more logic and understanding to possible life on other planets but to say it is probable is still using faith because we don't have physical evidence or any evidence of any kind.

No, it doesn't come down to scientific evidence if you are talking about PROBABILITY!

It's probable Obama won't do what I said he'd do, but to tell me I need evidence to say its improbable is frankly ridiculous!

You clearly don't understand the concept of probability. Before you continue I suggest you try wrap your head around it. Ive explained it a few times already. I've even used easy to understand analogies.

KeithAFC

Now, you just agreed with Dawkins. He said its most likely possible and so did you.

To say something is possible or probable requires no faith whatsoever. If you think it does then you misunderstand faith, probability or both!

It's possible that Barack Obama will have a No.1 single with a cover of Firestarter by Prodigy. Now its very probable that he won't, but it requires no faith on my part to acknowledge either of these things.

Yes but we are using intelligence in what we know in terms of the universe but at the end of the day, we still don't have any evidence at all. We don't know exactly what the universe even is and how it came about. The debate on faith and probability is an interesting one.

MrStuffins

Yes but we are using intelligence in what we know in terms of the universe but at the end of the day, we still don't have any evidence at all. We don't know exactly what the universe even is and how it came about. The debate on faith and probability is an interesting one.

There's no debate. Using the word "probably" means that we don't know one way or another but acquired knowledge suggests that it is likely.

Pompey Magnus

KeithAFC wrote: »

Yes but we are using intelligence in what we know in terms of the universe but at the end of the day, we still don't have any evidence at all. We don't know exactly what the universe even is and how it came about. The debate on faith and probability is an interesting one.

Keith, if physicists tomorrow produced verified scientific data which shows that the chances of life occuring in the Universe are so remote as to make Earth almost certainly the only planet in the entire Universe capable of supporting life, do you think Dawkins would still stick with his claim that he still believes, despite the contrary evidence, that extraterrestrial life exists?

When you answer please bear in mind that faith is defined as a firm belief in something without evidence.

MrStuffins

It completely amazes me when people blankly refuse to believe that in a possibly infinite but definitely expanding universe which contains 10 Billion Trillion stars that just we know of, not including the possibly infinite number of stars that we don't know of, that it is POSSIBLE that this planet is not the only one with any kind of life on it!

Not even probable, just possible!

KeithAFC

MrStuffins wrote: »

It completely amazes me when people blankly refuse to believe that in a possibly infinite but definitely expanding universe which contains 10 Billion Trillion stars that just we know of, not including the possibly infinite number of stars that we don't know of, that it is POSSIBLE that this planet is not the only one with any kind of life on it!

Not even probable, just possible!

Like I said, we just don't know if that is the case. Who is to say if we even exist like we think we do.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t-EE-QBs85g&feature=related

Pompey Magnus

MrStuffins wrote: »

It completely amazes me when people blankly refuse to believe that in a possibly infinite but definitely expanding universe which contains 10 Billion Trillion stars that just we know of, not including the possibly infinite number of stars that we don't know of, that it is POSSIBLE that this planet is not the only one with any kind of life on it!

Not even probable, just possible!

To be honest the best explanation I have heard put forward by someone who didn't believe in extraterrestrial life is that "Aliens are never mentioned in the Bible." That, so far, has been the most logical and reasonable explanation I have yet come across, and as far as explanations go it is pretty damn pathetic.

MrStuffins

KeithAFC wrote: »

MrStuffins wrote: »

It completely amazes me when people blankly refuse to believe that in a possibly infinite but definitely expanding universe which contains 10 Billion Trillion stars that just we know of, not including the possibly infinite number of stars that we don't know of, that it is POSSIBLE that this planet is not the only one with any kind of life on it!

Not even probable, just possible!

Like I said, we just don't know if that is the case. Who is to say if we even exist like we think we do.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t-EE-QBs85g&feature=related

I'm on my phone so cant see watch your video just yet but I understand your point.

And I like to have conversations on the subject on consciousness, the universe etc. What is good about is that some possible, some are based on pure speculation, some based on a combination of this and acquired knowledge. What is good is that faith is not required when speaking about things that could be possible

Antikythera

KeithAFC wrote: »

But it is still based on "faith". You have faith in something that it might be true and then you test it out. Obviously with the concept of god, that is impossible but Dawkins said there is probably Aliens on other planets. With no proof and although, it most likely is possible, he is still using faith because he believes it could be possible.

Belief in the possibility of something existing, and unsubstantiated certainty of the existence of that something are two completely different things.

If I buy a lottery ticket, am I 'using faith' when I make the claim that I could possibly win the jackpot? Of course not! What would require a huge leap of faith, however, is if I believed, quite wrongly, that I could win the lottery without buying a ticket. That would be nothing short of a 'miracle'.