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The spirit world
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I think Joe is a chancer0
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Just watched the Dawkins interviews...
Thought it was really interesting when it was put to him about a part of his book that he seemes excited about, where he was speculating about 'super human' aliens, which require a leap of faith, thought the look on his face was priceless when he was pulled up on it!
Then you either haven't read the book or you didn't understand what was being talked about.
There's a massive difference between saying "There is a God. I believe this to be fact. I can't prove it, but i'll take a leap of faith" and "I can't prove that there is life on other planets, but there are 100 Billion stars in our galaxy alone, there are 10 Billion Trillion stars known to us and possibly an infinite amount as the universe is possibly infinite. We don't know if it's infinite but what we DO know is it's rapidly expanding.......... so it's a mathimatical probability that there is aliens on other planets."
It's about probability. Imagine I start singing American Pie by Don McClean. What are the chances someone somewhere in the world is singing that song at the same time as me? 1 in a million? Imagine the chances were 1 in a Billion!
Well, right now there are almost 7 billion people in the world so if it WAS 1 in a billion than 7 people are singing the song right now. I can't prove it, but it's probable that i'm not the only one singing this song. It's a popular song afterall.
The guy who pulled him up on it made a complete idiot out of himself by trying to catch Dawkins out like he did because he had either failed to understand what Dawkins was trying to say or he was deliberately pandering to those who would use a straw like that to clutch at! Of course its a statistical probability that there is life on other planets!
But at no point did Dawkins EVER say it was a fact that there were!0 -
MrStuffins wrote: »Just watched the Dawkins interviews...
Thought it was really interesting when it was put to him about a part of his book that he seemes excited about, where he was speculating about 'super human' aliens, which require a leap of faith, thought the look on his face was priceless when he was pulled up on it!
Then you either haven't read the book or you didn't understand what was being talked about.
There's a massive difference between saying "There is a God. I believe this to be fact. I can't prove it, but i'll take a leap of faith" and "I can't prove that there is life on other planets, but there are 100 Billion stars in our galaxy alone, there are ten Billion Trillion stars known to us and the universe is believed to be infinite.......... so it's a mathimatical probability that there is aliens on other planets."
The guy who pulled him up on it made a complete idiot out of himself by trying to catch Dawkins out like he did because he had either failed to understand what Dawkins was trying to say or he was deliberately pandering to those who would use a straw like that to clutch at!
Clutching is exactly what it was, there is no proof of super human intelligence, none, like there is no factual proof of a god, his face was priceless!0 -
Clutching is exactly what it was, there is no proof of super human intelligence, none, like there is no factual proof of a god, his face was priceless!
Exactly. There is no proof.
But his face was priceless not because he'd been caught out, his face was priceless because this guy who was supposedly a scholar and the best example RTE could come up with of someone capable of debating Dawkins' point in his books had COMPLETELY misunderstood what was being said.
Again, there is a massive difference. Dawkins NEVER SAID that there was life on other planets. So why would he need proof?
He said it's probable. And the lad ridiculously embarrassed himself. No wonder Dawkins was astonished!0 -
MrStuffins wrote: »Clutching is exactly what it was, there is no proof of super human intelligence, none, like there is no factual proof of a god, his face was priceless!
Exactly. There is no proof.
But his face was priceless not because he'd been caught out, his face was priceless because this guy who was supposedly a scholar and the best example RTE could come up with of someone capable of debating Dawkins' point in his books had COMPLETELY misunderstood what was being said.
Again, there is a massive difference. Dawkins NEVER SAID that there was life on other planets. So why would he need proof?
He said it's probable. And the lad ridiculously embarrassed himself. No wonder Dawkins was astonished!
No, he was suiting himself... That's all. It requires a leap of faith to believe in aliens, it is a deluded concept at this point in time. Just as it is a deluded concept that there is a god judging everyone for not going to mass on sunday or eating meat on a friday. It is plain and simple. He has no proof to back up his concept. Simples.
Proof is not probability, proof is hard fast demonstrable evidence in the shape of an alien, super human intelligence, superior to ours in at least some way that can be tested and proved beyond doubt to be superior to the greatest intelligence we have ( at the very least) he doesn't have it, no one does. Hence, his theory requires me to take a leap of faith even to allow for the possibility of the probability. Simples.0 -
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Dawkins completely got it wrong with the whole probable in that video. Dawkins was basing his argument on faith, even if it has some intelligence behind it. It is still a leap of faith.0
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No, he was suiting himself... That's all. It requires a leap of faith to believe in aliens, it is a deluded concept at this point in time.
I don't think you're quite understanding here. He didn't say he believed in aliens. He said it was a statistical probability than life on other planets exists. WHich I fully agree with. it would be absolutely foolish to think we are the only life in the universe. It requires no proof because it is a hypotesis. He doesn't ask that you believe him, it was a rhetorical device.Just as it is a deluded concept that there is a god judging everyone for not going to mass on sunday or eating meat on a friday. It is plain and simple. He has no proof to back up his concept. Simples.
Again, you haven't understood what was being said. I highly suggest you go back and watch the video or you pick upi the book and read what was said. he NEVER said there was aliens on other planets. NEVER!
He said it was probable. A pure hypotesis. people who believe in God don't do so in a hypothetical way. Their faith flies in the face of proof. You're not understanding what is going on here my friend.Proof is not probability
Good, i'm glad you know this. Which is why when you go back and watch the video you will hear them talk about how it's not fact, but probable.proof is hard fast demonstrable evidence in the shape of an alien, super human intelligence, superior to ours in at least some way that can be tested and proved beyond doubt to be superior to the greatest intelligence we have ( at the very least) he doesn't have it, no one does.
Yup. and he never asked for proof. He never said it was fact.
Just like if I said right now that it was PROBABLE that someone, somewhere is singing American Pie by Don McClean. It's very probable as it's a popular song and there are so many people who know it. But i'm not saying I can prove it. I'm saying it's probable. It's very possible nobody is singing it.Hence, his theory requires me to take a leap of faith even to allow for the possibility of the probability. Simples.
No it doesn't. You haven't understood the "theory" properly. Simples.0 -
Dawkins completely got it wrong with the whole probable in that video. Dawkins was basing his argument on faith, even if it has some intelligence behind it. It is still a leap of faith.
If you believe this then you don't know what faith and probability are!
To have faith in God is to say that no matter what people tell you and no matter what proof you might have AGAINST there being a God, you should believe it anyway because it is fact.
To say something is probable is to say that it may or may not be true, but the option most likely is that it IS true. But only that it's LIKELY to be true, not that it is sure to be true.
I'm seriously not sure why people are finding it hard to understand this. It's very straight forward.0 -
MrStuffins wrote: »No, he was suiting himself... That's all. It requires a leap of faith to believe in aliens, it is a deluded concept at this point in time.
I don't think you're quite understanding here. He didn't say he believed in aliens. He said it was a statistical probability than life on other planets exists. WHich I fully agree with. it would be absolutely foolish to think we are the only life in the universe. It requires no proof because it is a hypotesis. He doesn't ask that you believe him, it was a rhetorical device.Just as it is a deluded concept that there is a god judging everyone for not going to mass on sunday or eating meat on a friday. It is plain and simple. He has no proof to back up his concept. Simples.
Again, you haven't understood what was being said. I highly suggest you go back and watch the video or you pick upi the book and read what was said. he NEVER said there was aliens on other planets. NEVER!
He said it was probable. A pure hypotesis. people who believe in God don't do so in a hypothetical way. Their faith flies in the face of proof. You're not understanding what is going on here my friend.Proof is not probability
Good, i'm glad you know this. Which is why when you go back and watch the video you will hear them talk about how it's not fact, but probable.proof is hard fast demonstrable evidence in the shape of an alien, super human intelligence, superior to ours in at least some way that can be tested and proved beyond doubt to be superior to the greatest intelligence we have ( at the very least) he doesn't have it, no one does.
Yup. and he never asked for proof. He never said it was fact.
Just like if I said right now that it was PROBABLE that someone, somewhere is singing American Pie by Don McClean. It's very probable as it's a popular song and there are so many people who know it. But i'm not saying I can prove it. I'm saying it's probable. It's very possible nobody is singing it.Hence, his theory requires me to take a leap of faith even to allow for the possibility of the probability. Simples.
No it doesn't. You haven't understood the "theory" properly. Simples.
I understood it perfectly. Statistics don't cut it for this one. Nothing does. There is no proof. It is as plain and simple as that. He can paint whatever picture he likes. I have spent decades reading this kind of stuff. The man at this stage in his career is deluded on this point. At least Christians have proof Jesus Christ walked this earth. The is no proof that aliens exist, probably just doesn't cut. He can argue the point, but at the end of the day, just like his counterparts he cannot provide actual proof. Hence liathroidi.0 -
I understood it perfectly. Statistics don't cut it for this one. Nothing does. There is no proof. It is as plain and simple as that. He can paint whatever picture he likes. I have spent decades reading this kind of stuff. The man at this stage in his career is deluded on this point. At least Christians have proof Jesus Christ walked this earth. The is no proof that aliens exist, probably just doesn't cut. He can argue the point, but at the end of the day, just like his counterparts he cannot provide actual proof. Hence liathroidi.
Hahaha, dude, he never asked that you believe aliens exist. Just like I never said I could prove someone was singing American Pie. He never presented it as fact. Why would he need to show you proof if he never said it was fact?
He said it was a statistical probability. Which is 100% true. it's very probable that there is life on other planets.0 -
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MrStuffins wrote: »I understood it perfectly. Statistics don't cut it for this one. Nothing does. There is no proof. It is as plain and simple as that. He can paint whatever picture he likes. I have spent decades reading this kind of stuff. The man at this stage in his career is deluded on this point. At least Christians have proof Jesus Christ walked this earth. The is no proof that aliens exist, probably just doesn't cut. He can argue the point, but at the end of the day, just like his counterparts he cannot provide actual proof. Hence liathroidi.
Hahaha, dude, he never asked that you believe aliens exist. Just like I never said I could prove someone was singing American Pie. He never presented it as fact. Why would he need to show you proof if he never said it was fact?
He said it was a statistical probability. Which is 100% true. it's very probable that there is life on other planets.
The problem is this, to acknowledge the possibility, statistical probability, notion, concept, idea of aliens at this point in time, requires a leap of faith, suspension of disbelief in reality. This man laughs in the faces of people, who for their own reasons, choose to believe in something that cannot be proven.
He is the very person that requires proof for their foolishness.
Now, he comes along with a concept which requires the same criteria to be fulfilled, and suggests something as ridiculous as what they are suggesting and expects not to be pulled up on it, by rationally thinking people. This is the point. And his face showed it.
He may be a hero of yours, and I enjoyed watching several videos from him. But he got caught in his own web on this point. People can believe, and should be allowed to believe whatever they want. Equality across all spectrums, whatever they are. Live and let live without ridicule.0 -
MrStuffins wrote: »To have faith in God is to say that no matter what people tell you and no matter what proof you might have AGAINST there being a God, you should believe it anyway because it is fact.
Exactly, I would bet a penny to a pound that if a scientific discovery was made and verified by respected scientists which showed that conditions neccessary to support life are actually much harder to achieve than is currently thought, so much so that it would be improbable for any other planet in the entire Universe to meet the required criteria, then Dawkins would be one of the first to hold up his hands and admit his assumption for the existence of extraterrestrial life seems to have been wrong given the new understanding.
That is not faith.0 -
Parrai: I'm going to ask you a simple question. Apart from here on this earth, do you believe that it is at all possible that life could exist somewhere else in the universe?
If not, why not?0 -
I remember a girl in my primary school whose parents asked if she could be opted out of religion; she was made sit at the back facing the wall.
The teacher went out of her way to make the girl feel different. One of the few things I actually remember from primary school.
I wonder if that would be allowed fly now.
I went to a catholic primary school in the 80s, had to sit outside the class reading. It was a bunch of ****ing bull****. They gave me a bible to read.0 -
I understood it perfectly. Statistics don't cut it for this one. Nothing does. There is no proof. It is as plain and simple as that. He can paint whatever picture he likes. I have spent decades reading this kind of stuff. The man at this stage in his career is deluded on this point. At least Christians have proof Jesus Christ walked this earth. The is no proof that aliens exist, probably just doesn't cut. He can argue the point, but at the end of the day, just like his counterparts he cannot provide actual proof. Hence liathroidi.
Why don't statistics cut it?0 -
Snakeblood wrote: »I went to a catholic primary school in the 80s, had to sit outside the class reading. It was a bunch of ****ing bull****. They gave me a bible to read.
HAHAHA!!!
Sorry, I know it's terrible but that's hilarious. That they gave you a bible to read. The arrogance! Amazing!0 -
Snakeblood wrote: »Why don't statistics cut it?
Apparently when talking about probability, numbers are no use. You have to have proof of something before you can say it's probable :rolleyes:0 -
MrStuffins wrote: »HAHAHA!!!
Sorry, I know it's terrible but that's hilarious. That they gave you a bible to read. The arrogance! Amazing!
Yeah, I believe things are better in that school now, but at the time I hated every second of it. They probably thought they were helping me. ****.0 -
Snakeblood wrote: »Yeah, I believe things are better in that school now, but at the time I hated every second of it. They probably thought they were helping me. ****.
I started to wake up to the idea that all this Christianity malarcy wasn't true in secondary school. One of our teachers was a bible bashing Christian who used to make us pray at the begining of class. There came a point where I didn't want to do that anymore so refused.
She had me excluded from irish class until I called discrimination on her ass. It caused a major hub-bub in the school at the time because this was pre-immigration times so she wasn't used to having non-Christians in her class.
I wonder what she's like now?0 -
My point has been made. If you cannot understand it, you need to read my posts again. The question you have asked was answered in my previous posts also. I am open to changing my mind when proof is provided. At the moment there is no proof.0
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My point has been made. If you cannot understand it, you need to read my posts again. The question you have asked was answered in my previous posts also. I am open to changing my mind when proof is provided. At the moment there is no proof.
It's a simple question. Why the reluctance to answer?
I asked, do you think it is AT ALL POSSIBLE that aliens exist? Do you think that possibility exists?
I'm not asking do you think they exist, just whether you think it might be possible?
For the record, I am an Atheist. I genuinely believe that God does not exist. At least not the personal Christian God.
However, I think it's possible God exists. There is no proof that God exists, very very far from it. But I don't need proof for it to be possible. Of course it's possible there was an intelligent creator.0 -
MrStuffins wrote: »My point has been made. If you cannot understand it, you need to read my posts again. The question you have asked was answered in my previous posts also. I am open to changing my mind when proof is provided. At the moment there is no proof.
It's a simple question. Why the reluctance to answer?
I asked, do you think it is AT ALL POSSIBLE that aliens exist? Do you think that possibility exists?
I'm not asking do you think they exist, just whether you think it might be possible?
Are you seriously asking me if I thought independence day was a good film ???0 -
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MrStuffins wrote: »
At this time, no, I do not. There is no proof of aliens. Cinema is the place for this type of thing. Now if you ask me, do I like to be entertained by this topic, yes, I do. I like to pass a few hours with a DVD and suspend disbelief, on occasion.
If I'm reading an article in the paper, as I'm about to read it, someone says to me 'jaysus, they found something faster than the speed of light!!' I'd say '**** off!'
'no really, look here, here is the proof' then I continue on reading the paper, and then would go home and research it.
Now, can you show me your proof of the probability of ET?0 -
At this time, no, I do not. There is no proof of aliens. Cinema is the place for this type of thing. Now if you ask me, do I like to be entertained by this topic, yes, I do. I like to pass a few hours with a DVD and suspend disbelief, on occasion.
So you think it's impossible then yes? DO you mind telling me why you think it's impossible?
By the way, i'm talking about life on other planets. I'm not talking about an alien invasion of earth.
NOTE: I realise there is no proof, I want to know why you think there is a 0% chance that it is possible.If I'm reading an article in the paper, as I'm about to read it, someone says to me 'jaysus, they found something faster than the speed of light!!' I'd say '**** off!'
'no really, look here, here is the proof' then I continue on reading the paper, and then would go home and research it.
That's a good thing. But why would you reseach it if it was impossible? You nee dother people to tell you whether things are possible or not?Now, can you show me you proof of the probability of ET?
Indeed I can! (I'm going to presume you mean ET to be Extra-Terrestrial lifeforms and not the movie character ET.)
I know for a FACT that life exists inside this very universe! I know for A FACT that life can form and evolve. I know for a FACT that when conditions are right, life can flourish on a planet. How do I know this? Because I am living, breathing proof!
Now, what is needed for life to flourish is for a planet to be in what is known as a "Goldielocks Zone". This means that a planet, like earth is with our own sun, needs to be not too close but not too far away to be able to sustain life.
Now, not only to I feel it a massive probability that at least 1 of the 10 Billion Trillion stars would have these properties, but I know for a fact that at least 1 other planet in a "Goldielocks Zone" exists. 4 of them have been discovered in the last 20 years. Here's a link to information on one.
Also, recent discoveries have shown that, in fact, there doesn't need to be these "Goldielocks" conditions in order for life to live as fossils were found recently of a lifeform which was able to live of pyrite, meaning that other planets outside of these safe-zones are possible places for life to exist.
So, adding together the fact that I know for sure, 100% that it is possible for life to exist in the universe, I feel it probable that somewhere in the vast universe, other forms of life exist. Whether they be humanoid beings of bacteria.
There's your proof of probability.0 -
Mr Stuffins,
You are asking a lot of questions, my friend...
Let me ask you this....
What has any of the questions you are asking me got to do with the original point I made, that you took issue with?
And now feel that you should quiz me as to what I think?
Did I not make myself clear, as regards my opinion on Prof. Dawkins opinion?
Why do you feel the need to defend this man?
What relevance has any of the above got to do with ET?0 -
MrStuffins wrote: »So you think it's impossible then yes? DO you mind telling me why you think it's impossible?
By the way, i'm talking about life on other planets. I'm not talking about an alien invasion of earth.
NOTE: I realise there is no proof, I want to know why you think there is a 0% chance that it is possible.
That's a good thing. But why would you reseach it if it was impossible? You nee dother people to tell you whether things are possible or not?
Indeed I can! (I'm going to presume you mean ET to be Extra-Terrestrial lifeforms and not the movie character ET.)
I know for a FACT that life exists inside this very universe! I know for A FACT that life can form and evolve. I know for a FACT that when conditions are right, life can flourish on a planet. How do I know this? Because I am living, breathing proof!
Now, what is needed for life to flourish is for a planet to be in what is known as a "Goldielocks Zone". This means that a planet, like earth is with our own sun, needs to be not too close but not too far away to be able to sustain life.
Now, not only to I feel it a massive probability that at least 1 of the 10 Billion Trillion stars would have these properties, but I know for a fact that at least 1 other planet in a "Goldielocks Zone" exists. 4 of them have been discovered in the last 20 years. Here's a link to information on one.
Also, recent discoveries have shown that, in fact, there doesn't need to be these "Goldielocks" conditions in order for life to live as fossils were found recently of a lifeform which was able to live of pyrite, meaning that other planets outside of these safe-zones are possible places for life to exist.
So, adding together the fact that I know for sure, 100% that it is possible for life to exist in the universe, I feel it probable that somewhere in the vast universe, other forms of life exist. Whether they be humanoid beings of bacteria.
There's your proof of probability.
Now that is all lovely, can you now point me to the Super Human Intelligent aliens?0 -
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Mr Stuffins,
You are asking a lot of questions, my friend...
Let me ask you this....
What has any of the questions you are asking me got to do with the original point I made, that you took issue with?
They have a lot to do with it because you made the fundamental mistake of not knowing what "probability" is. You were looking for proof. If you knew what probability was you'd have known better.
You completely misunderstood the point being made in the book. No matter how many times you say "i understood it", the PROOF of your misunderstanding is clear for all to see in this thread.And now feel that you should quiz me as to what I think?
Well, this is a discussion forum is it not? We're having a discussion aren't we? Nothing wrong with that.
I was asking because I felt that nobody of sound mind could possibly close their mind to the possibility of life existing elsewhere just because we're not advanced enough to go and find it.
I mean, who in their right mind would think it was impossible for life to exist on another planet? Sure we already know it's possible, we're bloody here! :rolleyes:Did I not make myself clear, as regards my opinion on Prof. Dawkins opinion?
yes but you misunderstood Mr.Dawkins' stance on alien lifeforms.Why do you feel the need to defend this man?
I wasn't defending him. i was pointing out that, from the start, you have misunderstood what Mr.Dawkins was trying to say. Sure you haven't even read the book.What relevance has any of the above got to do with ET?
Well, a lot. Isn't this what you were talking about? Your original point was about life on other planets.0
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