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Gays want to take over the rest of Society?

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    #422
    paddyandy
    Site Banned Posts: 2,037 ✭✭✭paddyandy


    I love nothing better than a really good argument with an opinion better than my own if possible ..alas not here and i am weary of fools on this thread.


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    #423
    thebullkf
    Registered Users Posts: 3,006 ✭✭✭thebullkf


    MrStuffins wrote: »
    ....................



    Nope.


    then i see no point in continuing conversing with you.

    i've asked you questions prob about 10 at this stage that you either won't or more likely can't answer.

    so good night to you, and well done on thread spoiling :rolleyes:


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    #424
    strobe
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,872 ✭✭✭strobe


    paddyandy wrote: »
    I have not seen even one good post or put them all together to support two men bringing up a child and if it does exist i would like to see it maybe there is one somewhere but it's not here.That's for certain and playing around with words wins nobody over in the long term.

    How about two women Paddy? You were making a concerted effort to convince us that women are swell parents where as men just can't cut it.

    So how about two big huge gay women raising a kid? I mean that's twice the maternal womanly goodness right there. So that would be twice as good as a straight couple, right? Right?


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    #425
    MrStuffins
    Registered Users Posts: 19,166 ✭✭✭✭MrStuffins


    thebullkf wrote: »
    then i see no point in continuing conversing with you.

    i've asked you questions prob about 10 at this stage that you either won't or more likely can't answer.

    so good night to you, and well done on thread spoiling :rolleyes:

    I have tried my best to answer your questions. I apologise if I missed any. i will try to rectify this now.


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    #426
    woodoo
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,219 ✭✭✭woodoo


    Logical Fallacy wrote: »
    It should be a pretty easy journey to take but if you need a tour guide i'd suggest consideration of the following points.

    1) It is good a child can be brought up by it's natural parents in a loving and stable environment.
    2) Not all mixed sex couples can produce a stable environment, so same sex couples are not a safe haven and gold standard for child rearing simply because there relationship make up matches the required make up for sexual reproduction in humans.
    3) It is possible for a single mother or father to raise a child in a manner that would be deemed good for the child.
    4) If a lone parent can provide a stable environment for a child, then why not two parents of the same sex? If the loss of a male or female perspective has not been deemed a hazard to a child's development, then why is it used as a stick to beat the concept of same sex couples adopting?

    Then a simple questions : Why is growing up within the care system better for a child that growing up in a stable home with loving parents regardless of sex?

    That's about it for me, should cover pretty much everything I reckon.

    Not trying to change your mind, but you were asking a question and I figured seeing as you don't seem to understand the concept of answering the ones that you yourself are asked i might as well offer the olive branch and hope you will expand on the points you have steadfastly refused to engage on to date.

    Thanks for that Logical. At least its an answer and better than ego trip muffin has been on.

    Its not. Same sex would be better than a care home i'd imagine.

    Children are interested in their biological parents. They often go looking for them. The natural mother and father covers all these bases. That is why its best imo. It fails in nothing when all is well. How could it not be superior to any other family unit?


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    #427
    lmaopml
    Registered Users Posts: 3,080 ✭✭✭lmaopml


    Dudess wrote: »
    You know, I can understand when people find hyper-camping it up to be too OTT and a bit annoying (I know gay people who feel that way about it) but otherwise, anyone, especially someone who is hetero, white, western and middle-class and has never experienced discrimination/abuse, who moans about gay people wanting more rights and privileges in a "They should take what they're given and be grateful about it" kinda way... is a fuk-wit.

    Yes, I agree, they are a fook wit. However ( there is always an 'However') Unfortunately the very 'camp' don't seem to represent everybody - but they 'think' they do represent everybody. Are they heroes leading the way? Are they just simply rebels with a cause, or are they representative?

    That's up to the community to know I think....and the 'community' is vast and no two people are the same - nothing new there - neither is any other person who defines themselves soley on their sexual orientation, and there are a hell of a lot of people who are lost - they don't have to be homosexual to be so. It's not a monopoly..

    I don't think the author meant great harm; just a voice asking a question - not a confrontational one, but one that is worth digesting nonetheless.


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    #428
    Killer Pigeon
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,132 ✭✭✭Killer Pigeon


    thebullkf wrote: »
    so you think maternal warmth is bollocks:confused:

    If paddyandy can't describe what he believe "maternal warmth" to be, then his understanding of "maternal warmth" is bollocks, frankly speaking.


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    #429
    Killer Pigeon
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,132 ✭✭✭Killer Pigeon


    paddyandy wrote: »
    I love nothing better than a really good argument with an opinion better than my own if possible ..alas not here and i am weary of fools on this thread.

    Condescending, much...


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    #430
    MrStuffins
    Registered Users Posts: 19,166 ✭✭✭✭MrStuffins


    thebullkf wrote: »
    how is his argument based in untruths:confused:

    Answered this already

    what argument/reasoning would satisfy you to accept the OP's opinion?

    Well I can't speak for the OP. This is why I have, time and time again, asked them to elaborate. it's not up to me to tell him what he thinks.

    in your opinion. { opinions are allowed right?...}

    do you have a good argument , based in truth for this opinion?

    Yes, a child being raised by 2 men or 2 women would be no different from the child being raised by a man and a woman.




    Now.. there's 2 questions. I seem to have missed 8!


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    #431
    orourkeda
    Closed Accounts Posts: 17,918 ✭✭✭✭orourkeda


    He's expressed an opinion. Why is everyone so sensitive?


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    #432
    Logical Fallacy
    Registered Users Posts: 5,933 ✭✭✭Logical Fallacy


    woodoo wrote: »
    Its not. Same sex would be better than a care home i'd imagine.

    So, just to hinge on this point for a second, if you may feel that a same sex couple would provide a better situation than a care home (assuming both people in the couple are well balanced, mature people who will love the child) , and given the fact that right now countless thousands of kids are currently in the care system...why not allow the kids the benefit of a better future and live by allowing same sex couples to adopt.

    Does it not seem strange to deny the kids what may be a better option in life than the one they currently find themselves in?

    That is really the crux of my own personal take on things. Would it be wonderful if all children could grow up in comfort and love with the man and the woman responsible for their specific combination of DNA? Of course it would...but not all mixed sex couples are instantly great parents, and the world we live in ensures that many will be orphaned or given up by their biological parents.

    There is no doubt in my mind that the same sex parental unit is different to a mixed sex one, but consider children grow up with no parents, one parent, both parents etc I cannot fathom why they could not grow up with two parent figures who are the same sex.


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    #433
    MrStuffins
    Registered Users Posts: 19,166 ✭✭✭✭MrStuffins


    woodoo wrote: »
    Its not. Same sex would be better than a care home i'd imagine.

    Wow.............. a breakthrough.

    See what happens when you start to think? Fair play to you!


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    #434
    MrStuffins
    Registered Users Posts: 19,166 ✭✭✭✭MrStuffins


    orourkeda wrote: »
    He's expressed an opinion. Why is everyone so sensitive?

    Because some opinions are based on sillyness!

    "late night gyms" lol.


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    #435
    lmaopml
    Registered Users Posts: 3,080 ✭✭✭lmaopml


    Logical Fallacy wrote: »
    So, just to hinge on this point for a second, if you may feel that a same sex couple would provide a better situation than a care home (assuming both people in the couple are well balanced, mature people who will love the child) , and given the fact that right now countless thousands of kids are currently in the care system...why not allow the kids the benefit of a better future and live by allowing same sex couples to adopt.

    Does it not seem strange to deny the kids what may be a better option in life than the one they currently find themselves in?

    That is really the crux of my own personal take on things. Would it be wonderful if all children could grow up in comfort and love with the man and the woman responsible for their specific combination of DNA? Of course it would...but not all mixed sex couples are instantly great parents, and the world we live in ensures that many will be orphaned or given up by their biological parents.

    There is no doubt in my mind that the same sex parental unit is different to a mixed sex one, but consider children grow up with no parents, one parent, both parents etc I cannot fathom why they could not grow up with two parent figures who are the same sex.

    Yes, I think this is a bit of a 'talking' point, but the reality is that even heterosexual couples find adoption gruelling - it's not a case of 'heterosexual' so hey you 'tick all the boxes' - here's a baby that nobody wanted, pick them up 'here'..

    Look, if a child is served well by a gay couple, then let them go through the same gruelling process that most couples do in order to be a parent and love a child. They are NOT a special case, they are subject to the same gruelling process as everybody else - and heck if the powers that be say they are 'fit' at the end, with no dropping of any standards, than heck well done - raise them, but most of all love them.


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    #436
    woodoo
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,219 ✭✭✭woodoo


    Logical Fallacy wrote: »
    So, just to hinge on this point for a second, if you may feel that a same sex couple would provide a better situation than a care home (assuming both people in the couple are well balanced, mature people who will love the child) , and given the fact that right now countless thousands of kids are currently in the care system...why not allow the kids the benefit of a better future and live by allowing same sex couples to adopt.

    Does it not seem strange to deny the kids what may be a better option in life than the one they currently find themselves in?

    That is really the crux of my own personal take on things. Would it be wonderful if all children could grow up in comfort and love with the man and the woman responsible for their specific combination of DNA? Of course it would...but not all mixed sex couples are instantly great parents, and the world we live in ensures that many will be orphaned or given up by their biological parents.

    There is no doubt in my mind that the same sex parental unit is different to a mixed sex one, but consider children grow up with no parents, one parent, both parents etc I cannot fathom why they could not grow up with two parent figures who are the same sex.

    There is alot i agree with in that post. I have been arguing that the ideal is the man woman and child and i stand by that.

    Yes two gay parents would be better than an orphanage. But i'd prefer if they were adopted by a mixed sex couple or fostered by a mixed sex couple.

    What would happen in full rights for same sex and mixed sex adoption. Say a child came up for adoption and there were 2 couples interested in adopting. Two gay men and a man and a woman. Who should get the child? How would it be decided.


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    #437
    triseke
    Registered Users Posts: 875 ✭✭✭triseke


    woodoo wrote: »
    There is alot i agree with in that post. I have been arguing that the ideal is the man woman and child and i stand by that.

    Yes two gay parents would be better than an orphanage. But i'd prefer if they were adopted by a mixed sex couple or fostered by a mixed sex couple.

    What would happen in full rights for same sex and mixed sex adoption. Say a child came up for adoption and there were 2 couples interested in adopting. Two gay men and a man and a woman. Who should get the child? How would it be decided.

    By the tests and background checks that are ran on all prospective adoptive parents? The couple who would be best suited are picked regardless of any other criteria.

    Thats how they chose adoptive parents at the moment. Why would they change it for homosexual parents?


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    #438
    Killer Pigeon
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,132 ✭✭✭Killer Pigeon


    orourkeda wrote: »
    He's expressed an opinion. Why is everyone so sensitive?

    Let me try to generalise the topic but this time, instread of "gay", how about "black people";

    (Apologies if anyone his offended by the following, it is only an illustration and not my actual opinion)
    "Black people. Why are they always whining? We abolished slavery and now they're parading about like they own the place. They're becoming more prominent in business, entertainment and on the TV, just because they're free. We should've seen it coming. I don't know about you but I'm frankly sick of it.

    Now they want to the right to marry whoever they want. They even want to marry our white women folk and raise mix-raced children. It's just wrong. Children shouldn't raised in a family with parents of different race, it hinders the welfare of the children. It isn't natural.

    It makes many of us uneasy and impatient with the idea that raising a child with mixed-race parent is totally equivalent to a child being raised by its natural same-race parents. It patently is not, and it is a crazy concession to PC culture to say that it is."

    If you look at it this way, you might start to understand why people are very sensitive about the opinions he expressed in his article.


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    #439
    orourkeda
    Closed Accounts Posts: 17,918 ✭✭✭✭orourkeda


    MrStuffins wrote: »
    Because some opinions are based on sillyness!

    "late night gyms" lol.

    And when are people going to learn that what offends them is best ignored.

    Why get offended by something based on "silliness"?


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    #440
    MrStuffins
    Registered Users Posts: 19,166 ✭✭✭✭MrStuffins


    orourkeda wrote: »
    And when are people going to learn that what offends them is best ignored.

    Why get offended by something based on "silliness"?

    Although I disagree with just ignoring things because they offend you, I don't think anyone here was offended. I certainly wasn't.

    We were having a discussion. This IS a discussion forum after all. It's what we're here to do.


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    #441
    orourkeda
    Closed Accounts Posts: 17,918 ✭✭✭✭orourkeda


    Killer Pigeon wrote: »
    Let me try to generalise the topic but this time, instread of "gay", how about "black people";



    If you look at it this way, you might start to understand why people are very sensitive about the opinions he expressed in his article.

    This article has served its purpose in the sense that it is being talked about.

    I'd never have bothered otherwise.

    The simple response to articles you find offence with is to deny them the oxygen of unnecessary publicity.


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    #442
    orourkeda
    Closed Accounts Posts: 17,918 ✭✭✭✭orourkeda


    MrStuffins wrote: »
    Although I disagree with just ignoring things because they offend you, I don't think anyone here was offended. I certainly wasn't.

    We were having a discussion. This IS a discussion forum after all. It's what we're here to do.

    But my initial post was in response to the op. They're the one who got offended and raised the whole thread in the first place.


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    #443
    MrStuffins
    Registered Users Posts: 19,166 ✭✭✭✭MrStuffins


    orourkeda wrote: »
    But my initial post was in response to the op. They're the one who got offended and raised the whole thread in the first place.

    Well I can see why he thought he felt it inappropriate that this article was published. I don't believe ignoring things like this is the answer.


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    #444
    Logical Fallacy
    Registered Users Posts: 5,933 ✭✭✭Logical Fallacy


    woodoo wrote: »
    What would happen in full rights for same sex and mixed sex adoption. Say a child came up for adoption and there were 2 couples interested in adopting. Two gay men and a man and a woman. Who should get the child? How would it be decided.

    As others have mentioned, it not enough to be interested...adoption can be a very difficult and testing process with many factors taken into account.

    The real question is...if a same sex couple can pass the same tests and standards as mixed couples then why not allow them to adopt the child?

    I'd love to be able to agree with you and say "yes, it would be wonderful if mixed sex couples could adopt children"...but this is made moot by the fact that all over the world, hundreds of thousands of children need adoption to provide them a better life and there are not enough would be parents to go around.


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    #445
    meathawk
    Registered Users Posts: 334 ✭✭meathawk


    What I will say as far as the city guides offering information for gay pick-up spots and such and how what would appear sleazy to heterosexuals could be normal for gay people is that gay culture and gay identity has its roots as setting themselves aside from 'traditional' sexuality. It's a scene with its origins deriving from sexual preference, it's no wonder as a whole it may appear to the outsider as being more sexually inclined or focused. The boundaries of socially constructed sexual norms are withdrawn, reshaped and I for one think all branches of life have things people are fully aware of but seemingly brushed under the rug, the gays are open and upfront about it, it's liberation at its finest.


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    #446
    Killer Pigeon
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,132 ✭✭✭Killer Pigeon


    Son: "Dad, Dad, I have something to tell you both."

    Dad 1: "What is it son?"

    Dad 2: "Tell us son, you know you can share anything with us."

    Son: "Well, I don't know how to put this any other way. I've known this for a long time and I wanted to get it off my chest. All I hope is that you can accept me for who I am."

    Dad 1: "Go ahead, son."

    Son: "Well, I'm straight."

    *Shock* *Horror*


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    #447
    orourkeda
    Closed Accounts Posts: 17,918 ✭✭✭✭orourkeda


    MrStuffins wrote: »
    Well I can see why he thought he felt it inappropriate that this article was published. I don't believe ignoring things like this is the answer.

    What is complaining about it going to prove or solve?


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    #448
    MrStuffins
    Registered Users Posts: 19,166 ✭✭✭✭MrStuffins


    orourkeda wrote: »
    What is complaining about it going to prove or solve?

    Nobody said anything about complaining.

    Discussion is good though


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    #449
    K-9
    Registered Users Posts: 43,311 ✭✭✭✭K-9


    thebullkf wrote: »
    so you think maternal warmth is bollocks:confused:

    I know you advocate fathers rights so,

    What does maternal warmth mean?

    Mad Men's Don Draper : What you call love was invented by guys like me, to sell nylons.



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    #450
    woodoo
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,219 ✭✭✭woodoo


    Logical Fallacy wrote: »
    As others have mentioned, it not enough to be interested...adoption can be a very difficult and testing process with many factors taken into account.

    The real question is...if a same sex couple can pass the same tests and standards as mixed couples then why not allow them to adopt the child?

    I'd love to be able to agree with you and say "yes, it would be wonderful if mixed sex couples could adopt children"...but this is made moot by the fact that all over the world, hundreds of thousands of children need adoption to provide them a better life and there are not enough would be parents to go around.

    Its going to happen anyway i'd say regardless of what i think. Like i said earlier i'm not militantly against it. If it happens i'll not be too bothered. So long as children have a happy upbringing all is good.

    I stand by my nuclear family is the ideal stance though.

    Anyway i'm off for zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz!!


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    #451
    Killer Pigeon
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,132 ✭✭✭Killer Pigeon


    meathawk wrote: »
    What I will say as far as the city guides offering information for gay pick-up spots and such and how what would appear sleazy to heterosexuals could be normal for gay people is that gay culture and gay identity has its roots as setting themselves aside from 'traditional' sexuality. It's a scene with its origins deriving from sexual preference, it's no wonder as a whole it may appear to the outsider as being more sexually inclined or focused. The boundaries of socially constructed sexual norms are withdrawn, reshaped and I for one think all branches of life have things people are fully aware of but seemingly brushed under the rug, the gays are open and upfront about it, it's liberation at its finest.

    Many straight men are up front about the casual sex they've had; scores on the bedpost, etc.. Sure you could nearly see "ordinary" bars and nightclubs as the straight equivalent to so-called gay "pick-up" spots.


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