Filthy atheists stealing our Christmas

Turtwig

Unforgettable _ Fire wrote: »

Ah excellent, my favourite thread is back

THIS is your favourite thread? It's not one I created. Or Rob, or Dades? I don't think you really get this Mod thing do you?

Doctor Strange

Jernal wrote: »

THIS is your favourite thread? It's not one I created. Or Rob, or Dades? I don't think you really get this Mod thing do you?

J C

Sarky wrote: »

Not a whole lot, but for some reason religious folks have this bizarre idea that atheists need to worship him because some of his work came very close to the truth about all life on earth. Crazy, really. Same people seem to think some guy called Dawkins is pope of some other religion, too. There's just no accounting for some of those loons.

Anyway Sarky, what are you doing, if anything special, for Christmas ... or do you not do Christmas?

robindch

J C wrote: »

[...] or do you not do Christmas?

Being a good bible-believing "christian", you won't be putting up a tree, will you, JC? I'm asking on account of Jeremiah 10:1-5:

Jeremiah 10:1-5 wrote:

Hear ye the word which the Lord speaketh unto you, O house of Israel: Thus saith the Lord, Learn not the way of the heathen, and be not dismayed at the signs of heaven; for the heathen are dismayed at them. For the customs of the people are vain: for one cutteth a tree out of the forest, the work of the hands of the workman, with the axe. They deck it with silver and with gold; they fasten it with nails and with hammers, that it move not. They are upright as the palm tree, but speak not: they must needs be borne, because they cannot go. Be not afraid of them; for they cannot do evil, neither also is it in them to do good.

Before you answer, remember - your gods' law doesn't change!

Cabaal

J C wrote: »

Could this mean that when children stop believing in Santa ... they will also stop believing in Darwin?

You doubt Darwin existed as a person?
There's loads of evidence to show Darwin existed,

lazygal

Cabaal wrote: »

You doubt Darwin existed as a person?
There's loads of evidence to show Darwin existed,

I understand he wrote a book.

Pherekydes

Cabaal wrote: »

You doubt Darwin existed as a person?
There's loads of evidence to show Darwin existed,

But he looked like Santa, so if Santa doesn't exist, neither does Darwin.

That seems to be JC's line of "reasoning".

MrPudding

J C wrote: »

I'm certainly extending the hand of friendship ... and seasonal greetings ... whether it is reciprocated is up to Mr P.

I hate to disappoint you JC, but I really don't think we can be friends. I have many friends, and they are a varied bunch, young and old, highly educated and not not highly educated, male and female, religious and non-religious. Whilst they are many and varied they all have one thing in common, I can respect them.

I can't ever respect you JC, ever. So I'm sorry, but we can't be friends.

MrP

pauldla

MrPudding wrote: »

I hate to disappoint you JC, but I really don't think we can be friends. I have many friends, and they are a varied bunch, young and old, highly educated and not not highly educated, male and female, religious and non-religious. Whilst they are many and varied they all have one thing in common, I can respect them.

I can't ever respect you JC, ever. So I'm sorry, but we can't be friends.

MrP

Not even if he had a Scalextric?

MrPudding

pauldla wrote: »

Not even if he had a Scalextric?

Ooh, hadn't thought of that...

MrP

pauldla

I'll ask him.

JC, do you have a Scalextric?

Cabaal

pauldla wrote: »

I'll ask him.

JC, do you have a Scalextric?

Sure even if he doesn't, Santa can get him one for Christmas :pac:

M.J.M.C

tricky D wrote: »

Remind me now please, which festivals was Xmas robbed from?

Serious question, can someone explain this?
Cheers

pauldla

M.J.M.C wrote: »

Serious question, can someone explain this?
Cheers

Presumably, someone calling themselves tricky D had a question, and posted it on the thread. Won't happen again, boss. :pac:

Are you asking about pre-Christian Christmas traditions?

Cabaal

M.J.M.C wrote: »

Serious question, can someone explain this?
Cheers

Off hand,
The whole Christmas tree thing comes from a christian being blasphemous against the god Thor and cutting down Thor's oak.

In 723, a Christian missionary named Winfrid cut down an oak tree sacred to the god Thor. This action is said to mark the beginning of the Christianization of the Germanic peoples,

So basically he desecrated another gods symbol to convert people.
Hmm, think we can do this with the christian cross? :pac:

oldrnwisr

M.J.M.C wrote: »

Serious question, can someone explain this?
Cheers

Sure thing.

Firstly it goes without saying that Jesus wasn't actually born on December 25th. There is no date mentioned in either of the two nativity accounts (neither of which agree) and the details contained in the accounts (e.g. Bethlehem, shepherds etc.) make it unlikely to have occurred in December.

The explanation for Christmas being in December is that Christianity is a syncretic religion. It steamrolls over older religions and incorporates the things that it finds useful. A lot of the stories in the bible, for example are lifted directly from earlier mythological traditions, Babylonian, Sumerian, Egyptian, Greek etc. However, one of the recurring themes of Christianity is taking elements of other religions and recasting them to make them evil or weak. Let's take a few examples.

Ba'al is the name of an old semitic deity whose worship predates Judaism. In fact Baal worshippers would have been a rival religion for the burgeoning Abrahamic tradition. As a result, Baal's full name in the old testament is changed from Ba'al Zabul (lord on high) to Beelzebub (lord of the flies).

In the Old Testament we have the story of Elisha who feeds 100 men with just 20 barley loaves. (2 Kings 4:42-44). The story is retold in the new testament (Matthew 14:13-33, Mark 6:31-52, Luke 9:10-17, John 6:1-21), but this time Jesus feeds an even greater number with even less food.


Christmas is just another Christian rewrite. A lot of previous mythological traditions had a winter celebration e.g. Saturnalia. This tradition originated as a celebration of the triumph of light over dark manifest in the winter solstice. Some of the Christmas customs still practiced (i.e. holly and ivy) reflect these ancient beliefs.

Most of the trappings of what Christians accept as Christianity turn out to have pagan roots of some sort. There is a very good treatment of this in Pagan Christianity

Brian Shanahan

lazygal wrote: »

He looks like Santa, my favourite mythical character after god.

J C wrote: »

He does ... doesn't he?

So you finally accept the truth that god is mythical, then.

Hallelujiah, we have finally converted JC to the truth. Your bounty is on its way lazygal.

TwoShedsJackson

My Christmas wear last year: http://www.amazon.co.uk/Unisex-Humbug-Christmas-Sweatshirt-Jumper/dp/B00F5UF3PM/ref=sr_1_2/277-3823687-2787525?ie=UTF8&qid=1384339733&sr=8-2&keywords=bah+humbug

martingriff

I think for a lot of people its the now you have to say Happy Holidays incase you offend someone is what grates some people me included. It called Christmas noy Holiday

oldrnwisr

martingriff wrote: »

I think for a lot of people its the now you have to say Happy Holidays incase you offend someone is what grates some people me included. It called Christmas noy Holiday

It's probably got to do with the fact that Christianity isn't the only religion in the world. There are other religions which also have festivals celebrated around the end of December such as Hanukkah, Kwanzaa and at a stretch, Milad un Nabi, so Happy Holidays is a good all-round greeting because it doesn't automatically assume that the person you're wishing well is a Christian.

FamousSeamus

martingriff wrote: »

I think for a lot of people its the now you have to say Happy Holidays incase you offend someone is what grates some people me included. It called Christmas noy Holiday

This annoys me too, sure the christians robbed it from pagen religions but that still means it was a religious holiday (Just a different religion). I always found it odd when atheists say "Oh I'm not celebrating the christian holiday I'm celebrating the pagen religion" (yes I've heard this one!!) Which means your not atheist your Pagen:mad: (although Happy Odinson Day would be awesome:D)

martingriff

oldrnwisr wrote: »

It's probably got to do with the fact that Christianity isn't the only religion in the world. There are other religions which also have festivals celebrated around the end of December such as Hanukkah, Kwanzaa and at a stretch, Milad un Nabi, so Happy Holidays is a good all-round greeting because it doesn't automatically assume that the person you're wishing well is a Christian.

I know about the other festivels but I am talking about in a shop where they are selling christmass stuff and have it down as holidays. Used to be only in American but now is here. As for christmas it has come more than a Christian thing. It called Christmass deal with it

oldrnwisr

martingriff wrote: »

I know about the other festivels but I am talking about in a shop where they are selling christmass stuff and have it down as holidays. Used to be only in American but now is here. As for christmas it has come more than a Christian thing. It called Christmass deal with it

Why shouldn't shops cater to non-Christians? Or to people who wish to incorporate different traditions in their winter celebrations?

martingriff

oldrnwisr wrote: »

Why shouldn't shops cater to non-Christians? Or to people who wish to incorporate different traditions in their winter celebrations?

Nothing at all and have no problem with that but if they are selling Christmass stuff then call it Christmass

lazygal

martingriff wrote: »

Nothing at all and have no problem with that but if they are selling Christmass stuff then call it Christmass

What's "Christmass" stuff?

M.J.M.C

oldrnwisr thanks for the insightful answer and taking my question seriously.
Interesting stuff, thanks

Brian Shanahan

martingriff wrote: »

I think for a lot of people its the now you have to say Happy Holidays incase you offend someone is what grates some people me included. It called Christmas noy Holiday

I've never heard anyone use that American phraseology outside of tv land, a phrase created by christians for use in a christian meaning.

I think it a far more heinous act the way christmas was misappropriated by christians in their forcible and murderous conversion of the northern European pagans.

Doctor Strange

I still say "Merry Christmas" out of habit. "Happy Holidays" sounds very... corporate or something

Cabaal

martingriff wrote: »

I think for a lot of people its the now you have to say Happy Holidays incase you offend someone is what grates some people me included. It called Christmas noy Holiday

Bet your Christmas cards are like the one's from 30 rock

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wbI2epUsO-E

legspin

M.J.M.C wrote: »

oldrnwisr thanks for the insightful answer and taking my question seriously.
Interesting stuff, thanks

He's the man for a lucid, cogent and succinct answer alright.

pH

lazygal wrote: »

What's "Christmass" stuff?

Yes - it's worth mentioning when various theists talk about "Christmas stuff" they are normally referring to the secular/pagan traditions and not about anything actually "Christian".

If you think of all the things we associate with Christmas - turkey, fir trees, lights, presents, plum puddings, mincemeat, Santa, decorations, cakes, cards etc. then pretty much all of it has nothing to do with Jesus' birth. Yes the devout might add a manger and sing a carol or two but it's small compared to the other stuff.

Also it's amusing to hear the "It's *called* CHRISTmas THEREFORE it's about teh baby JESUS" argument from Christians who presumably get extremely confused around Easter?

Also what's with Protestants and Christmas? Catholics yes, Catholicism is the bible + extra catholic stuff they made up (like celebrating a catholic MASS on the 25th December), but surely Protestantism is the rejection of all the additional Catholic rubbish and a return to the biblical roots of Christianity - how they can continue with an obviously made up Catholic tradition of a mass on a fairly arbitrary date is beyond me.

Pixie Chief

Also what's with Protestants and Christmas? Catholics yes, Catholicism is the bible + extra catholic stuff they made up (like celebrating a catholic MASS on the 25th December), but surely Protestantism is the rejection of all the additional Catholic rubbish and a return to the biblical roots of Christianity - how they can continue with an obviously made up Catholic tradition of a mass on a fairly arbitrary date is beyond me.[/QUOTE]

Ah, we're finished with all that protesting stuff now! We just want everybody to get along. Plus there is no reason we can't celebrate christmas really. When the syphilitic king denied getting his end away in a marital capacity tore a bunch of pages out of the mass book, he obviously left in the christmas service bits. Otherwise, we would have had to come up with something of our own. Obviously.

martingriff

oldrnwisr wrote: »

Sure thing.

Firstly it goes without saying that Jesus wasn't actually born on December 25th. There is no date mentioned in either of the two nativity accounts (neither of which agree) and the details contained in the accounts (e.g. Bethlehem, shepherds etc.) make it unlikely to have occurred in December.

The explanation for Christmas being in December is that Christianity is a syncretic religion. It steamrolls over older religions and incorporates the things that it finds useful. A lot of the stories in the bible, for example are lifted directly from earlier mythological traditions, Babylonian, Sumerian, Egyptian, Greek etc. However, one of the recurring themes of Christianity is taking elements of other religions and recasting them to make them evil or weak. Let's take a few examples.

Ba'al is the name of an old semitic deity whose worship predates Judaism. In fact Baal worshippers would have been a rival religion for the burgeoning Abrahamic tradition. As a result, Baal's full name in the old testament is changed from Ba'al Zabul (lord on high) to Beelzebub (lord of the flies).

In the Old Testament we have the story of Elisha who feeds 100 men with just 20 barley loaves. (2 Kings 4:42-44). The story is retold in the new testament (Matthew 14:13-33, Mark 6:31-52, Luke 9:10-17, John 6:1-21), but this time Jesus feeds an even greater number with even less food.


Christmas is just another Christian rewrite. A lot of previous mythological traditions had a winter celebration e.g. Saturnalia. This tradition originated as a celebration of the triumph of light over dark manifest in the winter solstice. Some of the Christmas customs still practiced (i.e. holly and ivy) reflect these ancient beliefs.

Most of the trappings of what Christians accept as Christianity turn out to have pagan roots of some sort. There is a very good treatment of this in Pagan Christianity

I say you could say all religons are like this. Its a call all and make it easier for them to assemilate. Resistance is futile

lazygal

martingriff wrote: »

I say you could say all religons are like this. Its a call all and make it easier for them to assemilate. Resistance is futile

Srsly? :rolleyes:

Sarky

I'd call it AnalMaggotf*ckgasm Season if I still got presents, tinsel and a few days off work.

martingriff

lazygal wrote: »

Srsly? :rolleyes:

a joke my lady

the_syco

MrPudding wrote: »

CHRISTmas blah blah blah

Always confuse them with "if xmas happened on the 25th, why are the years counted from the 1st...?" :P

lazygal

the_syco wrote: »

Always confuse them with "if xmas happened on the 25th, why are the years counted from the 1st...?" :P

Because of the birth of Santa.

seamus

"Happy Holidays" just sounds stupid. It's too non-descript. You could be talking about your two weeks in Mosney. If people don't like using "Christmas", then something which is suitably generic yet specific to December is the way to go, like "Festivus".

MrPudding

Unforgettable _ Fire wrote: »

I still say "Merry Christmas" out of habit. "Happy Holidays" sounds very... corporate or something

I use merry christmas too. Quite happily.

MrP

Frank Lee Midere

the_syco wrote: »

Always confuse them with "if xmas happened on the 25th, why are the years counted from the 1st...?" :P

That question would confuse anyone.

Bannasidhe

seamus wrote: »

"Happy Holidays" just sounds stupid. It's too non-descript. You could be talking about your two weeks in Mosney. If people don't like using "Christmas", then something which is suitably generic yet specific to December is the way to go, like "Festivus".

Or good old Yule Tide

Yule or Yuletide ("Yule time") is a religious festival observed by the historical Germanic peoples, later being absorbed into and equated with the Christian festival of Christmas. The earliest references to Yule are by way of indigenous Germanic month names (Ærra Jéola (Before Yule) or Jiuli and Æftera Jéola (After Yule). Scholars have connected the celebration to the Wild Hunt, the god Odin and the pagan Anglo-Saxon Modranicht.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yule

Frank Lee Midere

seamus wrote: »

"Happy Holidays" just sounds stupid. It's too non-descript. You could be talking about your two weeks in Mosney. If people don't like using "Christmas", then something which is suitably generic yet specific to December is the way to go, like "Festivus".

Yuletide is your man.

long range shooter

Looks like everyone is trying to sabotage christmas these days,lol

http://patriotstatesman.com/2011/11/muslims-demand-all-citizens-stop-celebrating-christmas-or-there-will-be-hell-to-pay/

Pherekydes

long range shooter wrote: »

http://patriotstatesman.com/2011/11/muslims-demand-all-citizens-stop-celebrating-christmas-or-there-will-be-hell-to-pay/

Fresh conservative commentary on a wide range of topics from politics and culture to religion and family.

Does not compute!

FutureGuy

Christmas has always been about family for me, not religon. A few days to spend with everyone I care about.

Belly full of turkey, films on the tv, a few drinks in the fridge. Nothing to do but talk and laugh.

Duggy747

It's not Christmas for me unless I'm watching Willy Wonka & The Chocolate Factory.

Sonics2k

Person: "Happy holidays to you!"
Me: "Fúck off"

I hate this bloody special holiday nonsense.

Bannasidhe

Duggy747 wrote: »

It's not Christmas for me unless I'm watching Willy Wonka & The Chocolate Factory.

Not Xmas til I see a Famous Grouse ad.

Mr_A

In my case, it's not Christmas until Bad Santa is on TV.

"I beat the **** out of some kids today. But it was for a purpose. It made me feel good about myself. It was like I did something constructive with my life or something, I dunno, like I accomplished something."