Scottish Independence - NI implications

dlofnep

Fratton Fred wrote: »

You conveniently ignore the fact that of the 59 MPs in Scotland, only 6 of them are pro independence.

It's irrelevant, and the fact that you brought it up demonstrates you don't have the foggiest clue about Scottish politics. In Britain, only two parties will form the major part of a Government in Westminster. So Scottish voters vote on the lesser of the two evils - Generally Labour. It has nothing to do with independence, and neither validates it or invalidates it.

If they voted for SNP - it would mean that the Tories would probably form a Government as the votes would come at the expense of Labour. When it came to voting for those would would run Scottish affairs from the Scottish Parliament in Holyrood, the SNP returned a majority. This means that the Scottish public trust the SNP to run Scottish affairs, and understand that in Westminster - 20 or 30 SNP MP's wouldn't be able to form a majority Government party. It's tactical voting.

getz

putting my old thinking cap on ,i think that the only way it would work is to follow the way of the USA,all their states are self governed,

Soldie

dlofnep wrote: »

The difference is Scotland is a nation - and the nation as a whole has a polar opposite political aspiration than England. It's only pitiful because you take issue with the idea of Scotland being independent as a legitimate view, or the aspiration of independence based on the reality that the country is politically different as a whole than England.

All you've done here is repeat yourself. You still haven't explained why it makes a difference that it's a country instead of a county. I suspect that it's simply because it suits your argument, but I'm hoping you'll provide a proper explanation. The differences you highlight are just as applicable to Mayo in 2007 as they are to Scotland. It had a "polar opposite political aspiration" to the rest of the country but nevertheless had to go with the flow.

You made the claim - the onus is on you to back it up. Demonstrate evidence that I have an anti-English sentiment.

It's demonstrable by your weak argument. Your interpretation of Scottish politics is hopelessly simplistic and glaringly biased. At the time of the Scottish Parliament election earlier this year you were on here harping on about how it's a clear call for independence, but when others rightly pointed to the SNP's poor performance in the 2010 general election you claimed that people don't vote for them in the House of Commons because it's essentially a wasted vote, as if you were qualified to speak on behalf of the electorate. Wishful thinking is not a substitute for facts. Similarly, when posters pointed out the SNP's growing reputation for sound governance as an explanation for their success in the Scottish Parliament election, you dismissed this, too, in favour of your pro-independence narrative. I find it curious that you ignore any evidence that doesn't suit your argument, all the while jumping all over any morsel of evidence that you might be able to use to push your agenda. It also seems quite coincidental that your blinkered desire for an independent Scotland (whether or not the people of Scotland want it) seems to fit in perfectly well with the oftentimes myopic Irish republican views I've seen you posting on this forum. Again, I'd love to be proved wrong, but for me it ticks all the boxes of anti-English sentiment.

Fratton Fred

dlofnep wrote: »

It's irrelevant, and the fact that you brought it up demonstrates you don't have the foggiest clue about Scottish politics. In Britain, only two parties will form the major part of a Government in Westminster. So Scottish voters vote on the lesser of the two evils - Generally Labour. It has nothing to do with independence, and neither validates it or invalidates it.

If they voted for SNP - it would mean that the Tories would probably form a Government as the votes would come at the expense of Labour. When it came to voting for those would would run Scottish affairs from the Scottish Parliament in Holyrood, the SNP returned a majority. This means that the Scottish public trust the SNP to run Scottish affairs, and understand that in Westminster - 20 or 30 SNP MP's wouldn't be able to form a majority Government party. It's tactical voting.

And you can back this claim up can you?

The impression I have been given is that people trust the SNP to represent them in Holyrood, but not on a wider basis.

There was also a lot of anti liberal tactical voting in the last Scottish elections which favoured the SNP.

Still, we will find out soon I suppose, with this ground swell of support for independence we should see a referendum very soon.

Unless of course Alex knows that, in reality, the appetite for independence is not as big as he would like to think.

dlofnep

Soldie wrote: »

All you've done here is repeat yourself. You still haven't explained why it makes a difference that it's a country instead of a county.

I have explained it just fine I'm afraid. There is political will for independence. I have been forced to repeat myself because you have wilfully ignored this point. Northern England doesn't have the same desire for independence, therefore it is moot to draw some erroneous parallel between it and Scotland.

Soldie wrote: »

I suspect that it's simply because it suits your argument, but I'm hoping you'll provide a proper explanation. The differences you highlight are just as applicable to Mayo in 2007 as they are to Scotland.

No - It is not. Mayo could not stand on it's own as an independent state, and has no political will for independence from Ireland.

Soldie wrote: »

It's demonstrable by your weak argument.

I assure you - My argument is perfectly valid. If there was no political will for independence, then there would be no argument - But there is.

The fact that you have resorted to ad hominem attacks on my character, demonstrates the levels of gutter politics that you're willing to engage in. I'm perfectly entitled to express my views on the situation without being accused of having an anti-English bias. And if you're incapable of constructing your argument without resorting to such childish debate tactics - then you can find someone else to discuss the topic with.

Soldie wrote: »

Your interpretation of Scottish politics is hopelessly simplistic and glaringly biased.

Why, because it doesn't suit you?

Soldie wrote: »

At the time of the Scottish Parliament election earlier this year you were on here harping on about how it's a clear call for independence, but when others rightly pointed to the SNP's poor performance in the 2010 general election you claimed that people don't vote for them in the House of Commons because it's essentially a wasted vote, as if you were qualified to speak on behalf of the electorate.

Yes - which makes absolutely perfect sense. And I'm not speaking on behalf of the electorate and never claimed to be. It's a view I have formulated by judging public opinion polls, and viewing interviews of voters as to why they do not vote for the SNP in the general elections. The general consensus from what I have gathered is to ensure that the Tories stay out of power, as there is no political desire for them in Scotland. If that wasn't the case of the lesser of two evils, then in the Scottish national parliament - the SNP would not be gaining the traction that they have already gained in Holyrood, where they can actually make a difference when it comes to implementing policies - and instead, Labour would have a majority.

If you consider this as hopelessly simplistic, then offer an alternative viewpoint - instead of just attacking my argument with adjectives, and not providing an actual valid alternative view.

In summary - here are the facts. Scotland has never voted in large numbers for the Tories, but yet - they have lived under Tory governance on a number of occasions. Unlike northern England - there is actual political will to deviate from the status quo, and become an independent state.

If you feel that there is no case to be made for Scotland to be independent, where it would never again have to live under the Governance of a party that it's voters have resoundingly rejected time and time again - then it's not I who have quirks in my argument I'm afraid.

dlofnep

Fratton Fred wrote: »

The impression I have been given is that people trust the SNP to represent them in Holyrood, but not on a wider basis.

The Majority of policies which affect Scotland are implemented from Holyrood. These include:

• agriculture
• fisheries and forestry
• economic development
• education
• environment
• health
• home affairs
• Scots law – courts, police and fire services
• local government
• transport
• training
• tourism
• research and statistics
• social work

So what you're trying to say is that the Scottish people trust the SNP on healthcare, policing, education, transport and local government and want full taxation control to come to the Scottish parliament - but don't trust them on a 'wider basis'? What wider basis is this exactly?

steddyeddy

Do the majority of British people care if scotland gains independence? Im not being sarcastic or anything by asking that its just that a lot of people here that I assume to be english dont give the impression they'll miss them!

Soldie

dlofnep, your entire argument hinges on there being a high level of support for independence in Scotland. Your believe there is a high level of support because you perceive every vote for the SNP as a ringing endorsement for independence, and every vote against them as something that can simply be swept under the rug. My criticism is that it is not as simple as you make it out to be; for instance, you completely neglect to acknowledge that there are many people who vote for the SNP who are not necessarily pro-independence. The SNP have developed a good reputation for sound and efficient governance compared to the stagnant and paralysed Labour, and they've been rewarded for this at the polls. The support for independence really isn't there in the numbers you think it is; it might be in the future, but it's not right now. A vote for the SNP is not quite as politically loaded as a vote for Sinn Féin in Ireland is.

Anyway, I'll leave you to have the last word. I don't think you've done a particularly good job of explaining or backing up any of your points; you just keep repeating them over and over as if this is a war of attrition, all the while shifting the goalposts around to suit your argument. I've no interest in that.

Judgement Day

steddyeddy wrote: »

Do the majority of British people care if scotland gains independence? Im not being sarcastic or anything by asking that its just that a lot of people here that I assume to be english dont give the impression they'll miss them!

I'm British and I care about the possible break-up of the UK, but at this stage your average English citizen is sick of the SNP and their fellow travellers and would be happy to see the back of them. The growth of English nationalism will be an inevitable result of the political mismanagement of the UK and that is not in anybody's interest except the far right.

dlofnep

Soldie wrote: »

dlofnep, your entire argument hinges on there being a high level of support for independence in Scotland. Your believe there is a high level of support because you perceive every vote for the SNP as a ringing endorsement for independence

Show me once in this thread where I have stated that every vote for the SNP is a vote for independence. I'd appreciate it if you stopped creating a disingenuous argument on my behalf. If you examine the data of the Comres poll, you can view the demographics yourself.

http://www.comres.co.uk/polls/IoS_SM_16thOctober11.pdf

When it comes to the SNP - Only 9% of SNP voters disagree that Scotland should be independent. 77% believe that it should, and 14% are unsure. The context for this thread was based on the results of the said poll, which demonstrated that the majority supported an independent Scotland.

Alopex

Judgement Day wrote: »

I'm British and I care about the possible break-up of the UK, but at this stage your average English citizen is sick of the SNP and their fellow travellers and would be happy to see the back of them. The growth of English nationalism will be an inevitable result of the political mismanagement of the UK and that is not in anybody's interest except the far right.

why is it always assumed English nationalists have to be racist?

Batsy

I'm still waiting for England to get its own parliament.

The fact that the last Labour Government gave a parliament or assembly to each of the Celtic nations but seemed to have completely forgotten England is reprehensible.

Batsy

steddyeddy wrote: »

Do the majority of British people care if scotland gains independence? Im not being sarcastic or anything by asking that its just that a lot of people here that I assume to be english dont give the impression they'll miss them!

A higher proportion of the English want Scottish independence than the Scots themselves.

Batsy

dlofnep wrote: »

You're simply ignoring the reality that Scottish voters overwhelmingly rejected a Tory Government

So? In the 2005 General Election the Conservatives got more votes than Labour in England but the poor English had to endure another five years of a Labour Government thanks to the votes Labour received in Scotland.

So the Scots foisted a Labour Government onto England even though the English wanted a Tory Government.

steddyeddy

Alopex wrote: »

why is it always assumed English nationalists have to be racist?

Well indeed when judgement day said nationalists I didnt think racist.

Fratton Fred

dlofnep wrote: »

Show me once in this thread where I have stated that every vote for the SNP is a vote for independence. I'd appreciate it if you stopped creating a disingenuous argument on my behalf. If you examine the data of the Comres poll, you can view the demographics yourself.

http://www.comres.co.uk/polls/IoS_SM_16thOctober11.pdf

When it comes to the SNP - Only 9% of SNP voters disagree that Scotland should be independent. 77% believe that it should, and 14% are unsure. The context for this thread was based on the results of the said poll, which demonstrated that the majority supported an independent Scotland.

In the last election, the SNP received about 45% of the vote. If 77% of those want an independent Scotland, that makes it about 33%.

Madam

I see they've dropped the ROI as a a good example of independence. At one time you could'nt get them to shut up about it:rolleyes:

http://www.snp.org/vision/better-scotland/independence

dlofnep

Fratton Fred wrote: »

In the last election, the SNP received about 45% of the vote. If 77% of those want an independent Scotland, that makes it about 33%.

No it doesn't, because conversely - not everyone who votes Labour objects to independence. And infact, if you looked at the data I presented - you'd see that 39% of Labour voters favour Scottish independence, while only 36% oppose it. The overall, cross-party response was that 39% supported independence, and 38% opposed it.

Fratton Fred

dlofnep wrote: »

No it doesn't, because conversely - not everyone who votes Labour objects to independence. And infact, if you looked at the data I presented - you'd see that 39% of Labour voters favour Scottish independence, while only 36% oppose it. The overall, cross-party response was that 39% supported independence, and 38% opposed it.

So less then 40% of people living in Scotland want Scottish independence.

The elections for the Scottish parliament are open to any resident of Scotland of British, EU or commonwealth nationality. Would a referendum use the same criteria? Would the tens of thousand of scottish people living in England have a say?

Fratton Fred

Madam wrote: »

I see they've dropped the ROI as a a good example of independence. At one time you could'nt get them to shut up about it:rolleyes:

http://www.snp.org/vision/better-scotland/independence

North Sea Oil is the new Celtic tiger. An independent Scotland will end fuel poverty, apparently.

dlofnep

Fratton Fred wrote: »

So less then 40% of people living in Scotland want Scottish independence.

More people support it, than oppose it. The rest were unsure. You should learn how to read the survey results correctly.

woodoo

Batsy wrote: »

A higher proportion of the English want Scottish independence than the Scots themselves.

Boot them out and go it alone. And cut the suckling pig that is dependent NI loose too. England would do very well alone.

woodoo

Madam wrote: »

I see they've dropped the ROI as a a good example of independence. At one time you could'nt get them to shut up about it:rolleyes:

http://www.snp.org/vision/better-scotland/independence

Perhaps they could get Bertie, Cowan and McCreevey over to give them a talk on how not to do it. Bring Harney too for good measure.

Fratton Fred

dlofnep wrote: »

More people support it, than oppose it. The rest were unsure. You should learn how to read the survey results correctly.

Your glass is obviously half full.

39% for 38% against isn't exactly a landslide.

BluePlanet

I doubt it will ever happen.
But if it does, we can propose a Pan-Celtic Alliance with them.
That'll really put the unionists in a corner.

OS119

BluePlanet wrote: »

I doubt it will ever happen.
But if it does, we can propose a Pan-Celtic Alliance with them.
That'll really put the unionists in a corner.

given that the SNP has dropped the RoI like a hot turd from all its 'look how great it would be to be independant' campaign literature, i imagine they'd be more likely to join a Pan Scottish-Zimbabwe Alliance.

dlofnep

Fratton Fred wrote: »

Your glass is obviously half full.

39% for 38% against isn't exactly a landslide.

It doesn't have to be a landslide. All I have to demonstrate is that there is a sizeable amount of political will in Scotland for independence.

Batsy

who the fug wrote: »

Can you see Ken Clarke voting for it?

It seems to me that those pro-EU MPs who will vote against having a referendum on whether or not to leave the EU would do so because they are scared as to what the answer might be.

Cowards.

steddyeddy

I think the worst mistake people can make in this thread is take side when no sides have been esthablished yet

KeithAFC

woodoo wrote: »

Boot them out and go it alone. And cut the suckling pig that is dependent NI loose too. England would do very well alone.

Not as easy as that. Such talk like that makes the world sound very simple.