Scottish Independence - NI implications

glic71rods46t0

With a recent opinion poll indicating a majority of of Scots favour iindependence, what are the implications for Northern Ireland (in the event of a referendum on independence passing)?
My thinking is that the unionist population after trying to create an Ulster Scots identity will have to try to reinvent their unionist identity to one of an english origin or else change their political preference from union to independence. Thoughts?

KeithAFC

9ng2cderzksuip wrote: »

With a recent opinion poll indicating a majority of of Scots favour iindependence, what are the implications for Northern Ireland (in the event of a referendum on independence passing)?
My thinking is that the unionist population after trying to create an Ulster Scots identity will have to try to reinvent their unionist identity to one of an english origin or else change their political preference from union to independence. Thoughts?

What has Scotland got to do with Northern Ireland? And Northern Ireland is a bit different in many ways. One of them being that people would fight it with arms. Something which I doubt would happen in Scotland.

Border-Rat

Well one things for sure, they won't be moving their trident deterrent out of Scotland to the 6 Counties

I very much doubt the Union will survive the dollar collapse, London is afterall the main laundering centre for that currency. I'm sure that eventuality is being discussed not just by the SNP and SF, but by Northern Unionists as well.

Border-Rat

KeithAFC wrote: »

What has Scotland got to do with Northern Ireland? And Northern Ireland is a bit difference in many ways. One of them being that people would fight it with arms. Something which I doubt would happen in Scotland.

If England drops Northern Ireland, your fight will be useless. Even with direct MI5/British army intervention, the UVF were notoriously rabble-like next to the IRA. If/when the 06 will handed to Dublin, the majority of Unionists will be pragmatic about it, just like we're being within the UK.

A minority will fight, and the ARW will put them down within a year or two.

glic71rods46t0

KeithAFC wrote: »

What has Scotland got to do with Northern Ireland? And Northern Ireland is a bit different in many ways. One of them being that people would fight it with arms. Something which I doubt would happen in Scotland.

Who said anything about fighting?
The thread is about (cultural) identity. My thinking is that an Ulster Scots identity will be dropped by unionists as it won't be a unionist identity - actually your post, differentiating NI from Scotland, endorses my opinion

Killer Pigeon

Image if Scotland gained independence and then imagine Martin McGuinness becoming Irish President. Unionist Ulstermen would be sandwiched between overwhelming nationalist sentiment.

woodoo

If Scotland goes. You'll see the rise of English nationalism. They will be thinking why are we carrying Wales and NI. Better off with a reasonably well off independent England.

meditraitor

Killer Pigeon wrote: »

Image if Scotland gained independence and then imagine Martin McGuinness becoming Irish President. Unionist Ulstermen would be sandwiched between overwhelming nationalist sentiment.

Different type of nationalism, so imagining is stupid.

Killer Pigeon

woodoo wrote: »

If Scotland goes. You'll see the rise of English nationalism. They will be thinking why are we carrying Wales and NI. Better off with a reasonably well off independent England.

But I mean there has to be some sort of British confederation. The whole nationalist movement is terrible backward in my opinion. We should be aiming towards global unity, not global separation.

Border-Rat

woodoo wrote: »

If Scotland goes. You'll see the rise of English nationalism. They will be thinking why are we carrying Wales and NI. Better off with a reasonably well off independent England.

And vice versa, which is why I question the sincerity of the GFA. If NI left the Union it would probably create a domino effect.

glic71rods46t0

woodoo wrote: »

If Scotland goes. You'll see the rise of English nationalism. They will be thinking why are we carrying Wales and NI. Better off with a reasonably well off independent England.

I think you are right but I dont think that the english would drop NI. They will have to see the process through until the majority of NI favour a split. My thinking is that this will involve a drive for independence for NI as unionists will find this pill easier to swallow than Irish unification - though a federal Irish State might make more sense - we'll see

dlofnep

I think it may see a rise of Welsh & English nationalism. There's no doubt about it, Scottish independence would have a profound impact on the north and indeed, the entire union.

Killer Pigeon

meditraitor wrote: »

Different type of nationalism, so imagining is stupid.

It's different "types" of nationalism but Scottish nationalists would be allied with Irish Nationalists in many key areas.

dlofnep

Killer Pigeon wrote: »

But I mean there has to be some sort of British confederation. The whole nationalist movement is terrible backward in my opinion. We should be aiming towards global unity, not global separation.

No we shouldn't. Global Unity is not feasible in a political context. The reason why the UK is failing is because people want to be able to control their own affairs, and not have it determined from a central body. The majority of British affairs are dictated by English MPs. That is why Scottish nationalism is strong.

meditraitor

Killer Pigeon wrote: »

It's different "types" of nationalism but Scottish nationalists would be allied with Irish Nationalists in many key areas.

No they wouldnt,

No key area's

KeithAFC

Border-Rat wrote: »

If England drops Northern Ireland, your fight will be useless. Even with direct MI5/British army intervention, the UVF were notoriously rabble-like next to the IRA. If/when the 06 will handed to Dublin, the majority of Unionists will be pragmatic about it, just like we're being within the UK.

A minority will fight, and the ARW will put them down within a year or two.

If it did kick off in a United Ireland (if it ever happened), it would be a completely different war. One of the big Loyalist mottos is die in the last ditch which was from William Of Orange. Meaning to die and not see the ruin of your country. Some would prefer death. I have heard some people say that to me at band practice.

Killer Pigeon

meditraitor wrote: »

No they wouldnt,

Why not. Irish and Scottish nationalists have been allied in the past.

woodoo

KeithAFC wrote: »

Some would prefer death. I have heard some people say that to me at band practice.

To Hell or Scotland will be the cry

meditraitor

Killer Pigeon wrote: »

Why not. Irish and Scottish nationalists have been allied in the past.

its chalk and cheese, this thread is plain nonsense.

Killer Pigeon

dlofnep wrote: »

No we shouldn't. Global Unity is not feasible in a political context. The reason why the UK is failing is because people want to be able to control their own affairs, and not have it determined from a central body. The majority of British affairs are dictated by English MPs. That is why Scottish nationalism is strong.

I don't mind people controlling their own affairs. But what about free-trade? Open-borders? Currency? or even defense? Surely these things should remain in place.

Border-Rat

KeithAFC wrote: »

If it did kick off in a United Ireland (if it ever happened), it would be a completely different war. One of the big Loyalist mottos is die in the last ditch which was from William Of Orange. Meaning to die and not see the ruin of your country. Some would prefer death. I have heard some people say that to me at band practice.

Well with respect flute players are a minority. Like Republican extremists being outnumbered by rational Nationalists, the same applies to Unionists. The population has voted: A referendum decides, Unionists knew in 1998 that it could go the other way, they accepted it.

The Middle class of Unionism is who decides where their community goes. The businessmen, the majority. Not bar-stool bigots.

glic71rods46t0

I think that an independent Scotland would be a direct competitor with Ireland for FDI.
The issue I wanted the thread to explore is the identity crisis that Scottish independence would pose for NI unionists

dlofnep

Killer Pigeon wrote: »

I don't mind people controlling their own affairs. But what about free-trade? Open-borders? Currency? or even defense? Surely these things should remain in place.

How exactly would Scottish independence impact on trade? It is a member of the EU, which has trade agreements and defence agreements. Ireland had no issues with currency when it left the UK and managed all of the above just fine.

As for open-borders - There's no such thing as open borders, nor is such a thing feasible. A fair and balanced border control is mandatory for the well-being of any state.

dulpit

Is there much of a push from anyone to have a independent Northern Ireland? Or is it just United Ireland -vs- United Kingdom?

BTW: If the North did have a referendum on independence/joining Ireland/etc. would it have to be voted on by the whole UK or just the North? And I assume the republic (being the description ) of Ireland would also have to vote in same way if it's a united Ireland?

woodoo

9ng2cderzksuip wrote: »

I think that an independent Scotland would be a direct competitor with Ireland for FDI.
The issue I wanted the thread to explore is the identity crisis that Scottish independence would pose for NI unionists

They would still see themselves as Ulster Scots.

Killer Pigeon

meditraitor wrote: »

its chalk and cheese, this thread is plain nonsense.

Care to explain why?

I mean Sinn Féin and the SNP are quite similar.

Sinn Féin want Ireland to be a fully free and independent sovereign state (in this case a united Ireland). They want to promote Irish language, culture and heritage.

SNP want Scotland to be a fully free and independent sovereign state. They also want to promote Scottish culture, heritage and Scots-Gaelic.

Also, both Sinn Féin and the SNP are left-of-centre on the political spectrum.

In hindsight, Sinn Féin and the nationalist movement in Scotland do have common goals.

meditraitor

there is no comparison between Scottish and Irish Nationalism but as fencer pointed out there may be some conflicting idioms if Scotland was independent considering the scot-irish unionist mantra... in my opinion the vast majority of unionists dont give a fiddlers about scotland and so this not likely to change their feeling towards the nationalistic stance of some(minority) pro 32 county protagonists.

glic71rods46t0

dulpit wrote: »

Is there much of a push from anyone to have a independent Northern Ireland? Or is it just United Ireland -vs- United Kingdom?

BTW: If the North did have a referendum on independence/joining Ireland/etc. would it have to be voted on by the whole UK or just the North? And I assume the republic (being the description ) of Ireland would also have to vote in same way if it's a united Ireland?

The GFA requires the citizens of NOI decide the constitutional future of NI.
I dont know of any push for an independent NI but there is certainly a push for an independent Scotland,
My opinion is that NI unionists took on an Ulster Scots identity to differentiate from the native Irish population and to create a differentiated culture. That unionist ulster scots identity would be eroded by Scottish independence as the ulster scots identity has heretofore been a unionist identity

Killer Pigeon

dlofnep wrote: »

How exactly would Scottish independence impact on trade? It is a member of the EU, which has trade agreements and defence agreements. Ireland had no issues with currency when it left the UK and managed all of the above just fine.

As for open-borders - There's no such thing as open borders, nor is such a thing feasible. A fair and balanced border control is mandatory for the well-being of any state.

But parties like the Scottish National Party want Scotland to be independent from both the UK and the EU. Clearly this is a step backwards.

And perhaps I should rephrase the term "open-borders" (but in hindsight that's exactly what they are). Instead, there should be a common travel area between this new Scottish state and England, similar to what we have now between Ireland and UK(NI) or in Europe between those European states who have enforced the Schengen Agreement.

KeithAFC

9ng2cderzksuip wrote: »

The GFA requires the citizens of NOI decide the constitutional future of NI.
I dont know of any push for an independent NI but there is certainly a push for an independent Scotland,
My opinion is that NI unionists took on an Ulster Scots identity to differentiate from the native Irish population and to create a differentiated culture. That unionist ulster scots identity would be eroded by Scottish independence as the ulster scots identity has heretofore been a unionist identity

The Ulster scots identity has been in Ulster for centuries and wasn't always linked to the Union. Many actually disliked the Union at one point.

glic71rods46t0

meditraitor wrote: »

there is no comparison between Scottish and Irish Nationalism but as fencer pointed out there may be some conflicting idioms if Scotland was independent considering the scot-irish unionist mantra... in my opinion the vast majority of unionists dont give a fiddlers about scotland and so this not likely to change their feeling towards the nationalistic stance of some(minority) pro 32 county protagonists.

I agree. Uniionists probably dont give a fiddlers about Scotland. The Ulster Scots cultural identity was just a convenient way to dress up an "we're british" mindset. A British identity wont be seen to be a unionist identity though if Scottish independence goes through. An identity crisis looms

Killer Pigeon

meditraitor wrote: »

there is no comparison between Scottish and Irish Nationalism but as fencer pointed out there may be some conflicting idioms if Scotland was independent considering the scot-irish unionist mantra... in my opinion the vast majority of unionists dont give a fiddlers about scotland and so this not likely to change their feeling towards the nationalistic stance of some(minority) pro 32 county protagonists.

The thing is, Ulster Unionists would be under a lot more pressure if Scotland were to form an independent sovereign state, given that there would be a wave of nationalism throughout the British Isles.

Fratton Fred

dlofnep wrote: »

No we shouldn't. Global Unity is not feasible in a political context. The reason why the UK is failing is because people want to be able to control their own affairs, and not have it determined from a central body. The majority of British affairs are dictated by English MPs. That is why Scottish nationalism is strong.

so on that logic, Northern Unionists would be right to oppose a united Ireland because they wouldn't want to be governed by Irish TDs.

SmartHass

KeithAFC wrote: »

9ng2cderzksuip wrote: »

The GFA requires the citizens of NOI decide the constitutional future of NI.
I dont know of any push for an independent NI but there is certainly a push for an independent Scotland,
My opinion is that NI unionists took on an Ulster Scots identity to differentiate from the native Irish population and to create a differentiated culture. That unionist ulster scots identity would be eroded by Scottish independence as the ulster scots identity has heretofore been a unionist identity

The Ulster scots identity has been in Ulster for centuries and wasn't always linked to the Union. Many actually disliked the Union at one point.

Just out of interest how would hardline unionists react to an independant NI without the UK/GB banner? Its probably unfeasable i know.

KeithAFC

SmartHass wrote: »

Just out of interest how would hardline unionists react to an independant NI without the UK/GB banner? Its probably unfeasable i know.

A lot of Unionists would be OK with it. We have our own flag which represents that. I suppose a lot of Unionists are a bit like that deep down. Anything but a 32 county Socialist Republic.

Killer Pigeon

SmartHass wrote: »

Just out of interest how would hardline unionists react to an independant NI without the UK/GB banner? Its probably unfeasable i know.

I imagine it would bode better with them if they only had a choice between a United Ireland and an independent Northern Irish State - "A Protestant Parliament for a Protestant People" and that sort of mantra. I wouldn't trust such a state yet though, it could end up a disaster, like the post-1920 fascist NI state.

glic71rods46t0

KeithAFC wrote: »

A lot of Unionists would be OK with it. We have our own flag which represents that. I suppose a lot of Unionists are a bit like that deep down. Anything but a 32 county Socialist Republic.

Are you are referring to the unionist version of the Ulster flag (white with red cross and a crown) or the traditional Ulster provincial flag (the yellow one).
Your "anything but" is misleading though I think. You shouldnt qualify it with "socialist" or "republic" - Its the 32 county part you have a real problem with - admit it!

woodoo

KeithAFC wrote: »

Anything but a 32 county Socialist Republic.

I'm with you on that one. Who would want a socialist republic.

KeithAFC

9ng2cderzksuip wrote: »

Are you are referring to the unionist version of the Ulster flag (white with red cross and a crown) or the traditional Ulster provincial flag (the yellow one).
Your "anything but" is misleading though I think. You shouldnt qualify it with "socialist" or "republic" - Its the 32 county part you have a real problem with - admit it!

And that too. But if you listen to Sinn Fein, they do talk about a 32 county Socialist Republic.

And no, it is blue and red and yellow.

glic71rods46t0

Fratton Fred wrote: »

so on that logic, Northern Unionists would be right to oppose a united Ireland because they wouldn't want to be governed by Irish TDs.

A two state Irish federal system would solve that problem nicely. It would be easier for 1.5m people's interest to be accomodated in a 6m political enity than a 60m entity. Local power would be far more concentrated - don't you agree Freddy boy?

irishh_bob

woodoo wrote: »

To Hell or Scotland will be the cry

not even a lesser of two evils choice

glic71rods46t0

KeithAFC wrote: »

And that too. But if you listen to Sinn Fein, they do talk about a 32 county Socialist Republic.

And no, it is blue and red and yellow.

Why are you soo caught up in what Sinn Fein wants - there are many different econo-political ideologies in Ireland as elsewhere - why are you so tunnel visioned on the constitutional question - any way why invoke economic concerns if constitutional questions are all that concern you?

Not sure we are on the same page regarding the flag but as long as you agree with getting rid of uk/royal symbolism from an agreed flag then I guess that ok with me

irishh_bob

Killer Pigeon wrote: »

Care to explain why?

I mean Sinn Féin and the SNP are quite similar.

Sinn Féin want Ireland to be a fully free and independent sovereign state (in this case a united Ireland). They want to promote Irish language, culture and heritage.

SNP want Scotland to be a fully free and independent sovereign state. They also want to promote Scottish culture, heritage and Scots-Gaelic.

Also, both Sinn Féin and the SNP are left-of-centre on the political spectrum.

In hindsight, Sinn Féin and the nationalist movement in Scotland do have common goals.

are you aware of the fact that supporters of the SNP are overwhelmingly protestant , catholics in scotland vote labour and have shown little appetite for a break with london , why ? , they believe an independant scotland would leave them vulnerable to sectarianism

irishh_bob

9ng2cderzksuip wrote: »

I agree. Uniionists probably dont give a fiddlers about Scotland. The Ulster Scots cultural identity was just a convenient way to dress up an "we're british" mindset. A British identity wont be seen to be a unionist identity though if Scottish independence goes through. An identity crisis looms

its a bit more tangible than that in fairness , the overwhelming majority of ulster protestants trace thier ancestry back to scotland rather than england or wales , in terms of religous affiliation and culture , they are closely associated with scotland

glic71rods46t0

irishh_bob wrote: »

are you aware of the fact that supporters of the SNP are overwhelmingly protestant , catholics in scotland vote labour and have shown little appetite for a break with london , why ? , they believe an independant scotland would leave them vulnerable to sectarianism

Do you have recent poll results to back up this assertion?

glic71rods46t0

irishh_bob wrote: »

its a bit more tangible than that in fairness , the overwhelming majority of ulster protestants trace thier ancestry back to scotland rather than england or wales , in terms of religous affiliation and culture , they are closely associated with scotland

An independent Scotland would make them less culturally unionist then

KeithAFC

9ng2cderzksuip wrote: »

Why are you soo caught up in what Sinn Fein wants - there are many different econo-political ideologies in Ireland as elsewhere - why are you so tunnel visioned on the constitutional question - any way why invoke economic concerns if constitutional questions are all that concern you?

Not sure we are on the same page regarding the flag but as long as you agree with getting rid of uk/royal symbolism from an agreed flag then I guess that ok with me

Is this the flag you are thinking of?

glic71rods46t0

KeithAFC wrote: »

Is this the flag you are thinking of?

I hope you are intelligent enough to know the answer to that.

irishh_bob

9ng2cderzksuip wrote: »

Do you have recent poll results to back up this assertion?

cant be bothered looking it up now but google the topic, thier are many opinion pieces related to this view

Iwasfrozen

dlofnep wrote: »

Ireland had no issues with currency when it left the UK.

What? You mean apart from pegging our currency to theirs for untill 1978? Yeah very financially independent.

KeithAFC

9ng2cderzksuip wrote: »

I hope you are intelligent enough to know the answer to that.

You did seem to get confused in regards to the Ulster banner and this flag.