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Scottish Independence - NI implications

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    #32
    Killer Pigeon
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,132 ✭✭✭Killer Pigeon


    meditraitor wrote: »
    there is no comparison between Scottish and Irish Nationalism but as fencer pointed out there may be some conflicting idioms if Scotland was independent considering the scot-irish unionist mantra... in my opinion the vast majority of unionists dont give a fiddlers about scotland and so this not likely to change their feeling towards the nationalistic stance of some(minority) pro 32 county protagonists.

    The thing is, Ulster Unionists would be under a lot more pressure if Scotland were to form an independent sovereign state, given that there would be a wave of nationalism throughout the British Isles.


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    #33
    Fratton Fred
    Closed Accounts Posts: 26,567 ✭✭✭✭Fratton Fred


    dlofnep wrote: »
    No we shouldn't. Global Unity is not feasible in a political context. The reason why the UK is failing is because people want to be able to control their own affairs, and not have it determined from a central body. The majority of British affairs are dictated by English MPs. That is why Scottish nationalism is strong.

    so on that logic, Northern Unionists would be right to oppose a united Ireland because they wouldn't want to be governed by Irish TDs.


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    #34
    SmartHass
    Registered Users Posts: 45 ✭SmartHass


    KeithAFC wrote: »
    9ng2cderzksuip wrote: »
    The GFA requires the citizens of NOI decide the constitutional future of NI.
    I dont know of any push for an independent NI but there is certainly a push for an independent Scotland,
    My opinion is that NI unionists took on an Ulster Scots identity to differentiate from the native Irish population and to create a differentiated culture. That unionist ulster scots identity would be eroded by Scottish independence as the ulster scots identity has heretofore been a unionist identity
    The Ulster scots identity has been in Ulster for centuries and wasn't always linked to the Union. Many actually disliked the Union at one point.

    Just out of interest how would hardline unionists react to an independant NI without the UK/GB banner? Its probably unfeasable i know.


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    #35
    KeithAFC
    Closed Accounts Posts: 10,239 ✭✭✭✭KeithAFC


    SmartHass wrote: »
    Just out of interest how would hardline unionists react to an independant NI without the UK/GB banner? Its probably unfeasable i know.
    A lot of Unionists would be OK with it. We have our own flag which represents that. I suppose a lot of Unionists are a bit like that deep down. Anything but a 32 county Socialist Republic.


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    #36
    Killer Pigeon
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,132 ✭✭✭Killer Pigeon


    SmartHass wrote: »
    Just out of interest how would hardline unionists react to an independant NI without the UK/GB banner? Its probably unfeasable i know.

    I imagine it would bode better with them if they only had a choice between a United Ireland and an independent Northern Irish State - "A Protestant Parliament for a Protestant People" and that sort of mantra. I wouldn't trust such a state yet though, it could end up a disaster, like the post-1920 fascist NI state.


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    #37
    glic71rods46t0
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,074 ✭✭✭glic71rods46t0


    KeithAFC wrote: »
    A lot of Unionists would be OK with it. We have our own flag which represents that. I suppose a lot of Unionists are a bit like that deep down. Anything but a 32 county Socialist Republic.
    Are you are referring to the unionist version of the Ulster flag (white with red cross and a crown) or the traditional Ulster provincial flag (the yellow one).
    Your "anything but" is misleading though I think. You shouldnt qualify it with "socialist" or "republic" - Its the 32 county part you have a real problem with - admit it!


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    #38
    woodoo
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,219 ✭✭✭woodoo


    KeithAFC wrote: »
    Anything but a 32 county Socialist Republic.

    I'm with you on that one. Who would want a socialist republic.


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    #39
    KeithAFC
    Closed Accounts Posts: 10,239 ✭✭✭✭KeithAFC


    9ng2cderzksuip wrote: »
    Are you are referring to the unionist version of the Ulster flag (white with red cross and a crown) or the traditional Ulster provincial flag (the yellow one).
    Your "anything but" is misleading though I think. You shouldnt qualify it with "socialist" or "republic" - Its the 32 county part you have a real problem with - admit it!
    And that too. But if you listen to Sinn Fein, they do talk about a 32 county Socialist Republic.

    And no, it is blue and red and yellow.


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    #40
    glic71rods46t0
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,074 ✭✭✭glic71rods46t0


    Fratton Fred wrote: »
    so on that logic, Northern Unionists would be right to oppose a united Ireland because they wouldn't want to be governed by Irish TDs.
    A two state Irish federal system would solve that problem nicely. It would be easier for 1.5m people's interest to be accomodated in a 6m political enity than a 60m entity. Local power would be far more concentrated - don't you agree Freddy boy?


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    #41
    irishh_bob
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,700 ✭✭✭irishh_bob


    woodoo wrote: »
    To Hell or Scotland will be the cry :D

    not even a lesser of two evils choice :(


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    #42
    glic71rods46t0
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,074 ✭✭✭glic71rods46t0


    KeithAFC wrote: »
    And that too. But if you listen to Sinn Fein, they do talk about a 32 county Socialist Republic.

    And no, it is blue and red and yellow.
    Why are you soo caught up in what Sinn Fein wants - there are many different econo-political ideologies in Ireland as elsewhere - why are you so tunnel visioned on the constitutional question - any way why invoke economic concerns if constitutional questions are all that concern you?

    Not sure we are on the same page regarding the flag but as long as you agree with getting rid of uk/royal symbolism from an agreed flag then I guess that ok with me


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    #43
    irishh_bob
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,700 ✭✭✭irishh_bob


    Killer Pigeon wrote: »
    Care to explain why?

    I mean Sinn Féin and the SNP are quite similar.

    Sinn Féin want Ireland to be a fully free and independent sovereign state (in this case a united Ireland). They want to promote Irish language, culture and heritage.

    SNP want Scotland to be a fully free and independent sovereign state. They also want to promote Scottish culture, heritage and Scots-Gaelic.

    Also, both Sinn Féin and the SNP are left-of-centre on the political spectrum.

    In hindsight, Sinn Féin and the nationalist movement in Scotland do have common goals.

    are you aware of the fact that supporters of the SNP are overwhelmingly protestant , catholics in scotland vote labour and have shown little appetite for a break with london , why ? , they believe an independant scotland would leave them vulnerable to sectarianism


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    #44
    irishh_bob
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,700 ✭✭✭irishh_bob


    9ng2cderzksuip wrote: »
    I agree. Uniionists probably dont give a fiddlers about Scotland. The Ulster Scots cultural identity was just a convenient way to dress up an "we're british" mindset. A British identity wont be seen to be a unionist identity though if Scottish independence goes through. An identity crisis looms

    its a bit more tangible than that in fairness , the overwhelming majority of ulster protestants trace thier ancestry back to scotland rather than england or wales , in terms of religous affiliation and culture , they are closely associated with scotland


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    #45
    glic71rods46t0
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,074 ✭✭✭glic71rods46t0


    irishh_bob wrote: »
    are you aware of the fact that supporters of the SNP are overwhelmingly protestant , catholics in scotland vote labour and have shown little appetite for a break with london , why ? , they believe an independant scotland would leave them vulnerable to sectarianism
    Do you have recent poll results to back up this assertion?


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    #46
    glic71rods46t0
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,074 ✭✭✭glic71rods46t0


    irishh_bob wrote: »
    its a bit more tangible than that in fairness , the overwhelming majority of ulster protestants trace thier ancestry back to scotland rather than england or wales , in terms of religous affiliation and culture , they are closely associated with scotland
    An independent Scotland would make them less culturally unionist then


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    #47
    KeithAFC
    Closed Accounts Posts: 10,239 ✭✭✭✭KeithAFC


    9ng2cderzksuip wrote: »
    Why are you soo caught up in what Sinn Fein wants - there are many different econo-political ideologies in Ireland as elsewhere - why are you so tunnel visioned on the constitutional question - any way why invoke economic concerns if constitutional questions are all that concern you?

    Not sure we are on the same page regarding the flag but as long as you agree with getting rid of uk/royal symbolism from an agreed flag then I guess that ok with me
    Is this the flag you are thinking of?

    bg1qow.jpg


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    #48
    glic71rods46t0
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,074 ✭✭✭glic71rods46t0


    KeithAFC wrote: »
    Is this the flag you are thinking of?

    bg1qow.jpg
    I hope you are intelligent enough to know the answer to that.


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    #49
    irishh_bob
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,700 ✭✭✭irishh_bob


    9ng2cderzksuip wrote: »
    Do you have recent poll results to back up this assertion?

    cant be bothered looking it up now but google the topic, thier are many opinion pieces related to this view


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    #50
    Iwasfrozen
    Registered Users Posts: 16,250 ✭✭✭✭Iwasfrozen


    dlofnep wrote: »
    Ireland had no issues with currency when it left the UK.
    What? You mean apart from pegging our currency to theirs for untill 1978? Yeah very financially independent.


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    #51
    KeithAFC
    Closed Accounts Posts: 10,239 ✭✭✭✭KeithAFC


    9ng2cderzksuip wrote: »
    I hope you are intelligent enough to know the answer to that.
    You did seem to get confused in regards to the Ulster banner and this flag.


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    #52
    glic71rods46t0
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,074 ✭✭✭glic71rods46t0


    irishh_bob wrote: »
    cant be bothered looking it up now but google the topic, thier are many opinion pieces related to this view
    I asked about recent opinion polls - I must presume that you cant back up your post


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    #53
    Broxi_Bear_Eire
    Registered Users Posts: 6,704 ✭✭✭Broxi_Bear_Eire


    Where to start Bob is right to a degree yes RC's have traditionally Labour But so did Protestants that has changed in recent years with more and more of each voting SNP. This talk that the SNP are similar to SF is so wide of the mark of course there may be areas where they agree on certain things you do know that the SNP were called Tartan Tories for years and many people still think of them in that way. I don't believe the next referendum will in anyway give Scotland its independence what it will do is make inroads to getting it in twenty years


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    #54
    glic71rods46t0
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,074 ✭✭✭glic71rods46t0


    KeithAFC wrote: »
    You did seem to get confused in regards to the Ulster banner and this flag.
    Clear up my confusion - what is the cultural significance and symbolism of your flag?


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    #55
    Alopex
    Closed Accounts Posts: 632 ✭✭✭Alopex


    Border-Rat wrote: »
    If England drops Northern Ireland, your fight will be useless. Even with direct MI5/British army intervention, the UVF were notoriously rabble-like next to the IRA. If/when the 06 will handed to Dublin, the majority of Unionists will be pragmatic about it, just like we're being within the UK.

    A minority will fight, and the ARW will put them down within a year or two.

    It wouldn't be the same thing. The IRA had to take on the British army and an armed police force. Loyalists mostly targeted civillians. They never needed to be professional

    In a united Ireland it would reverse. Loyalists would have to take on armed forces. Youd have people professionally trained from serving in the psni/BA/TA and even ex UDR members. People who have far more extensive weapons and anti terrorist training than the Gardai. There are many areas east of the bann which would be extremely difficult to police for the Irish army/Gardai

    I would utterly reject any loyalist terrorism- if a united ireland comes about through the GFA I will accept it. Others won't though - and that's not something to be overlooked.


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    #56
    Killer Pigeon
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,132 ✭✭✭Killer Pigeon


    KeithAFC wrote: »
    Is this the flag you are thinking of?

    bg1qow.jpg

    It has too much in common with the Blueshirt flag:

    Banner_of_the_Blueshirts.svg
    BLUE%20SHIRTS%20FINE%20GAEL%20BADGE.gif
    fine-gael-eoin-oduffy.jpg

    This would probably suffice:

    Flag_of_Ulster.svg


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    #57
    dlofnep
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,759 ✭✭✭✭dlofnep


    Killer Pigeon wrote: »
    But parties like the Scottish National Party want Scotland to be independent from both the UK and the EU. Clearly this is a step backwards.

    That is a blatant lie. They do not wish to leave the EU.


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    #58
    Alopex
    Closed Accounts Posts: 632 ✭✭✭Alopex


    dlofnep wrote: »
    That is a blatant lie. They do not wish to leave the EU.

    nor even the commonwealth. probably not even the pound


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    #59
    Alopex
    Closed Accounts Posts: 632 ✭✭✭Alopex


    9ng2cderzksuip wrote: »
    Clear up my confusion - what is the cultural significance and symbolism of your flag?

    That's the Ulster Independence flag. Was a movement that never quite took off but you see it flying in the odd place during marching season. By not having a crown and retaining the Irish Ulster red hand symbol along with the more British saltire I think it a good symbol.


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    #60
    dlofnep
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,759 ✭✭✭✭dlofnep


    Fratton Fred wrote: »
    so on that logic, Northern Unionists would be right to oppose a united Ireland because they wouldn't want to be governed by Irish TDs.

    No. In a united Ireland, they would have far more of a say in their political affairs than they do at present. Northern Unionists currently hold 8 seats out of 650 in Westminster.

    In a United Ireland - there would be two future options. The first is a central parliament, where Unionists would have about 40+ seats. The Dáil is substantially smaller than Westminster with 166 seats. Assuming it grows to about 230 to accommodate the northern parties... the DUP would have more than 10 times more power (15-20%) than they currently have in Westminster (1.2%).

    The alternative would be to have a federal system, which is cited as a very workable format - and one Unionists would probably favour over a single house.

    In anycase - they would have substantially more say in either case.


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    #61
    OS119
    Registered Users Posts: 2,518 ✭✭✭OS119


    Alopex wrote: »
    nor even the commonwealth. probably not even the pound

    indeed, if you listen to SNP personalities talking about a post-independance Scotland you hear about a 'semi-detached' Scotland - they don't seem to be very keen on seperate defence/foreign policies or armed forces, possibly retaining a 'British' passport, and certainly a dual monarchy.

    now, some of this is probably mood music, but anyone who believes that the SNP - and an SNP lead independant Scotland - is going to be home to frothy-mouthed, swivell-eyed loons who look to SF as being their natural partners across the sea needs to get their meds looked at.

    personally i wouldn't be that surprised to see, after Scottish independance, the disolving of the UK in its current form, with everyone going their own way - whether they like it or not - with a loose federation between Scotland and England and Wales forming at some time after that.

    the writing is on the wall for NI as far as the UK is concerned, nobody wants to be responsible for it, nobody wants to pay for it - what they do after the UK ceases to be the governing power is, i'm afraid, a matter of absolute indifference to pretty much everyone in the UK, barring perhaps parts of Glasgow...


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