New Social Welfare ID cards introduced.

Belly_Dancer

http://www.thejournal.ie/new-social-welfare-identity-cards-to-be-issued-next-week-246673-Oct2011/


At last the Govt appears to be doing something about the abuse of our overly generous Social Welfare system.

Will it work?

Wetai

THE DEPARTMENT of Social Protection is set to begin rolling out a new identity card scheme which it hopes will cut down on welfare fraud by making it more difficult for people to use false identification when claiming payments.

Speaking yesterday to the Joint Committee on Jobs, Social Protection and Education, the Department of Social Protection’s deputy secretary Anne Vaughan said combatting fraud was one of the department’s central concerns.

Vaughan said that social welfare fraud “undermines public confidence in the entire system as well as being unfair to other recipients of social welfare payments, taxpayers and business run on a legitimate basis”.

The new Public Services Card, which contains biometric information on the cardholder, is being piloted in Tullamore, Sligo and King’s Inn in Dublin city. No cards have been issued yet, but the first are expected to be distributed from next week.

The cards will initially be given to people of working age and an estimated 4,000 cards will be issued by the end of the year.

The front of the card will have a photograph of the cardholder as well as their name, signature and the card expiry date. The person’s PPS number and a card number will be on the back. The card will electronically hold further details such as date of birth, sex, nationalist, mother’s former surname (if any) and any former surnames of the cardholder.

A chip and pin system for the cards is also being planned.

The department says that the card will act as a ‘key’ for access to public services and will reduce resources currently required to verify a person’s identity. It also says that the card will replace current cards in use such as the Free Travel Card and Social Services Card.

Image

CoolHat

I dont understand how they will come into play next week?

How are they going to get everyones photo? (passport database?)

Hande hoche!

nationalist/nationality fail.

woodoo

I hope it covers all bases and is virtually unalterable. Every state benefit including Child Benefit and Medical Card should be on its chip.

Roll it out asap i say.

ahyeahok

CoolHat wrote: »

I dont understand how they will come into play next week?

How are they going to get everyones photo? (passport database?)

they will take your photo when you pop in to them.

phasers

Will dey give me an extra payment to get me hair done for the photo? I'm tinkin about gettin dose plaits de black burds have

ArtSmart

Belly_Dancer wrote: »

http://www.thejournal.ie/new-social-welfare-identity-cards-to-be-issued-next-week-246673-Oct2011/


At last the Govt appears to be doing something about the abuse of our overly generous Social Welfare system.

Will it work?

Well if it doesnt I advocate shooting them. That way the 99% they spend in local* shops wont be wasted and can go to em, well you know, stuff. better stuff


*within a 5 mile radius

mikemac

Hurray, an end to the battered pieces of cardboard I see on Dublin Bus.

Many evenings the 78A has more pass holders then fare payers

Sure many of them are genuine and maybe on disability but considering an annual ticket costs several hundred, the potential savings are huge here

amacachi

They could just have some kinda of link between PRSI being paid and people making claims. Knew one guy who thought he was doing a shift a week cash-in-hand. Turned out the boss was putting it through the books. He was ****ting himself but still nothing's come of it. Amazing that in this day and age there's not an automatic link.

starbelgrade

Micro-chipping the poor.

Even Steve Jobs wouldn't have come up with such an innovative idea.

CoolHat

ahyeahok wrote: »

they will take your photo when you pop in to them.

I doubt that :P

But I can see that this wont stop everyone from frauding.
Say I was a Nigerian bloke with 3 indentities over here. Who is to say I give/take 3 photos with 3 different names. Slightly altering my appearance (clean shaven, gotee etc)

amacachi

phasers wrote: »

Will dey give me an extra payment to get me hair done for the photo? I'm tinkin about gettin dose plaits de black burds have

Your hairdresser must feel like someone turning up to an earthquake scene with a dustpan and brush.

amacachi

CoolHat wrote: »

I doubt that :P

But I can see that this wont stop everyone from frauding.
Say I was a Nigerian bloke with 3 indentities over here. Who is to say I give/take 3 photos with 3 different names. Slightly altering my appearance (clean shaven, gotee etc)

Aye, the ID card will make damn all difference.

m5ex9oqjawdg2i

About time, woohoo...

I bet some will find a way of getting a second one...

Stinicker

What a waste of money, why don't they do it properly and issue mandatory ID cards to the population.

Any time I want to fly Ryanair or fly to the EU I have to take my passport on what is almost an "internal" flight within the common block, with a proper National ID Card I could use it as my ID and not have to risk losing my passport with which I have numerous important visas and is a very important document. I find it a joke and it will probably be hacked and defrauded within a week, I do hope it works and if so there will suddenly be alot of people caught out and no harm either.

busyliving

I collected my dole the other day, and as always I hand over my card, and open my passport to show them I'm the correct person...

But I keep getting a look of them that says "I didn't ask for ID"... Which is a little worrying, I always thought they check your ID all the time, seems like a joke to me tbh

woodoo

starbelgrade wrote: »

Micro-chipping the poor.

Are you suggesting implanting a chip in the wretches Squire?

Belly_Dancer

ahyeahok wrote: »

they will take your photo when you pop in to them.

i imagine they will phase out the old ones and introduce the new ones on a gradual basis. eventually we will reach a point where you will not be able to collect your payment unless you hold a new card.

i bet that'll incentivise Jerzy, Krzsztof & their mates to switch.:D

ahyeahok

CoolHat wrote: »

I doubt that :P

But I can see that this wont stop everyone from frauding.
Say I was a Nigerian bloke with 3 indentities over here. Who is to say I give/take 3 photos with 3 different names. Slightly altering my appearance (clean shaven, gotee etc)

It said on the radio that where ever it is you go to get the card will be equipped to take your photo.

mikemac

busyliving wrote: »

I collected my dole the other day, and as always I hand over my card, and open my passport to show them I'm the correct person...

Well they know you by now, you're a local

You don't need it if the post-mistress knows you

starbelgrade

woodoo wrote: »

Are you suggesting implanting a chip in the wretches Squire?

Nah.. just brand a barcode across their foreheads & scan them when they go to collect their welfare.

phasers

busyliving wrote: »

I collected my dole the other day, and as always I hand over my card, and open my passport to show them I'm the correct person...

But I keep getting a look of them that says "I didn't ask for ID"... Which is a little worrying, I always thought they check your ID all the time, seems like a joke to me tbh

I was never, Ever asked for photo id, even when I first applied. They only asked to see a bank statement. I could have been anyone. Maybe I just looked trustworthy.

amacachi

Never been asked for ID signing on. Post office never used to ask for ID at all til a coupla months ago.

Mike 1972

ahyeahok wrote: »

they will take your photo when you pop in to them.

But if youre already successfully defrauding them how is that going to make any difference ? Any system of ID that relies on people first having to resort to other (flawed) methods of ID is going to achieve very little (bar more expense and inconvenience all around).

In order to justify it they came out with some guff about millions wasted on "overpayments" without stating

1) What proportion of overpayments were down to administrative fukups by SW staff rather than fraud on the part of the recipients ?
2) How much he new ID cards will actually cost ?

A study in the UK a few years back showed that mistakes by DSS staff cost more than fraud by the claimants. Theres no reason to believe that their Irish counterparts are any less incompetent.

phasers wrote: »

Maybe I just looked trustworthy.

If you look anything like your Avatar Id trust you :pac:

starbelgrade

Do siamese twins get double payments, or just the one?

Bosco boy

20 years too late! But welcome anyway, genuine people won't have a problem with it, chancers and scammers will.

woodoo

CoolHat wrote: »

I doubt that :P

But I can see that this wont stop everyone from frauding.
Say I was a Nigerian bloke with 3 indentities over here. Who is to say I give/take 3 photos with 3 different names. Slightly altering my appearance (clean shaven, gotee etc)

Is there a finger print or retina ID involved. May as well do it properly from the start.

phasers

starbelgrade wrote: »

Do siamese twins get double payments, or just the one?

Depends, what do they have two of and what do they share?

Belly_Dancer

CoolHat wrote: »

I doubt that :P

But I can see that this wont stop everyone from frauding.
Say I was a Nigerian bloke with 3 indentities over here. Who is to say I give/take 3 photos with 3 different names. Slightly altering my appearance (clean shaven, gotee etc)

Good point Coolhat, but this is why the "The new Public Services Card, which contains biometric information on the cardholder" ie finger-print &/or Iris scan.

Unless our immigrant friend has got 3 different eyeballs then he's ****ed!:D

amacachi

Mike 1972 wrote: »

But if youre already successfully defrauding them how is that going to make any difference ?

In order to justify it they came out with some guff about millions wasted on "overpayments" without stating

1) What proportion of overpayments were down to administrative fukups by SW staff rather than fraud on the part of the recipients ?
2) How much he new ID cards will actually cost ?

A study in the UK a few years back showed that mistakes by DSS staff cost more than fraud by the claimants. Theres no reason to believe that their Irish counterparts are any less incompetent.

I dunno, I'm not fan of anything to do with government but we would need a massive overhaul of the system to make the job do-able at all. There's no automatic flagging with revenue or with the guys in NI.

wild_cat

Do they have some sort of photo recognition software on the go or what?

I've heard of people making multiple claims... surely they'll just get multiple ID cards now instead?

How is it meant to catch people out... like if you're a ahem.. welfare tourist does it have GPS built in to track that you are coming and going?

Surely this is the same as asking for the welfare card and asking to see a passport or drivers licence.

Enda Murphy

Stinicker wrote: »

What a waste of money, why don't they do it properly and issue mandatory ID cards to the population.

Any time I want to fly Ryanair or fly to the EU I have to take my passport on what is almost an "internal" flight within the common block, with a proper National ID Card I could use it as my ID and not have to risk losing my passport with which I have numerous important visas and is a very important document. I find it a joke and it will probably be hacked and defrauded within a week, I do hope it works and if so there will suddenly be alot of people caught out and no harm either.

In what way would using an national id card for flying within the eu instead of a passport make life better for you? Give as much detail as possible

amacachi

phasers wrote: »

Depends, what do they have two of and what do they share?

They're known as "The Skipping Rope".

Belly_Dancer

mikemac wrote: »

Well they know you by now, you're a local

You don't need it if the post-mistress knows you

i visited my PO the other day.
the place was choc full, but there was not an Irish accent to be heard. most of them were not living local either, as (through my work) i know everybody in town.

my guess is they come in for a day's dole, then off to another town, and so on.

the Dept really needs to get serious.
ID's. Not before time!

amacachi

wild_cat wrote: »

Do they have some sort of photo recognition software on the go or what?

I've heard of people making multiple claims... surely they'll just get multiple ID cards now instead?

How is it meant to catch people out... like if you're a ahem.. welfare tourist does it have GPS built in to track that you are coming and going?

Surely this is the same as asking for the welfare card and asking to see a passport or drivers licence.

Aye, making seperate claims requires seperate PPS numbers. How putting a picture on them will help is something I don't know.

LH Pathe

The example in the news featured a picture that was black/white and grainy

will that be ok / an option

Mike 1972

woodoo wrote: »

I hope it covers all bases and is virtually unalterable.

Fat chance !

Belly_Dancer wrote: »

as (through my work) i know everybody in town.

You work in the dole office ?

Saila

Stinicker wrote: »

What a waste of money, why don't they do it properly and issue mandatory ID cards to the population.

Any time I want to fly Ryanair or fly to the EU I have to take my passport on what is almost an "internal" flight within the common block, with a proper National ID Card I could use it as my ID and not have to risk losing my passport with which I have numerous important visas and is a very important document. I find it a joke and it will probably be hacked and defrauded within a week, I do hope it works and if so there will suddenly be alot of people caught out and no harm either.

whats an important visa
no really, dont they expire?

Stinicker

Enda Murphy wrote: »

In what way would using an national id card for flying within the eu instead of a passport make life better for you? Give as much detail as possible

Well it would mean I would not have to use my passport for travel, thus reducing the risk that I might lose or have stolen such a valid travel document.

Most ID cards are credit card sized and I could store the card in my wallet.

If I have my passport stolen I will have to reapply to the different countries involved to get new visas entered into a new passport, this will cost me more time and money.

A proper National ID card would/should be acceptable as valid ID in the few places that require ID for the purposes of alcohol consumption, having to involve your passport in this type of environment would be highly conducive to losing it or having it stolen.

Having a National Card would overall I believe help reduce identity theft and lead to greater savings for the government.

Your reasons against such a card?... in as much detail as possible thanks!

OakeyDokey

Sounds good.

Wetai

Belly_Dancer wrote: »

Good point Coolhat, but this is why the "The new Public Services Card, which contains biometric information on the cardholder" ie finger-print &/or Iris scan.

Unless our immigrant friend has got 3 different eyeballs then he's ****ed!:D

Glass Eye + replacements.

Belly_Dancer

amacachi wrote: »

Aye, making seperate claims requires seperate PPS numbers. How putting a picture on them will help is something I don't know.

well if they utilize iris recognition or finger prints, then you can only have 1 PPS number with 1 set of prints.

if somebody attempts to register a set of prints more than once, then i reckon a very loud claxon will sound, a large net will drop from the cieling, and the offender will be sprayed with indellible ink or somit. :eek:

Mike 1972

Stinicker wrote: »

Having a National Card would overall I believe help reduce identity theft and lead to greater savings for the government.

Au contraire.

The UK recently abandoned a proposed identity card scheme with cost being one of the biggest reasons for doing so. Ireland may of course to be able do implement such a scheme at lower to cost per head but all experience suggest otherwise.

ID cards are a gift to fraudsters too since they only need one card to work with.

if they utilize iris recognition or finger prints

1) Thats a big "IF"
2) Technologies such as iris recognition, fingerprint scanning and even DNA may not be as infallible as is generally supposed. Fingerprint comparisons for example are often based on a small sample of points/features rather than the entire print.

starbelgrade

Mike 1972 wrote: »

Au contraire.

*Mike1972 slips into Dell Boy mode*

CreepingDeath

Without fingerprints or some other form of biometric recognition, this card is still open to fraud.

Unless they plan on running facial recognition software in the background to try and match photos to spot duplicates,
but I'd say there would be a lot of false positives there.

Belly_Dancer

CreepingDeath wrote: »

Without fingerprints or some other form of biometric recognition, this card is still open to fraud.

exactly!

which is why "The new Public Services Card, contains biometric information on the cardholder"

that said they need to be 100% tamper proof to avoid cloning.

Enda Murphy

Stinicker wrote: »

Well it would mean I would not have to use my passport for travel, thus reducing the risk that I might lose or have stolen such a valid travel document.

Most ID cards are credit card sized and I could store the card in my wallet.

If I have my passport stolen I will have to reapply to the different countries involved to get new visas entered into a new passport, this will cost me more time and money.

A proper National ID card would/should be acceptable as valid ID in the few places that require ID for the purposes of alcohol consumption, having to involve your passport in this type of environment would be highly conducive to losing it or having it stolen.

Having a National Card would overall I believe help reduce identity theft and lead to greater savings for the government.

Your reasons against such a card?... in as much detail as possible thanks!

If you unable to look after your passport then its most likely you would also lose your national id card, and as you want a mandotory national id would it not be worse to lose that ? Do you think people who dont have their id card on them walking down the street should be thrown in jail ? All kids that want drink and smokes these days have a fake garda age card, What is to stop them making a fake national id card since they can make fake garda ids so easily ?

CoolHat

Belly_Dancer wrote: »

Good point Coolhat, but this is why the "The new Public Services Card, which contains biometric information on the cardholder" ie finger-print &/or Iris scan.

Unless our immigrant friend has got 3 different eyeballs then he's ****ed!:D

:pac:
In fairness, what do the irish government define as Biometric ... didnt the new version passports that came out a few years ago boast about bio metrics?
And it was just an indentation of your passport picture on the plastic. It wasnt Blade Runner style bio metrics.

We're still a bit away from seeing mass produced ID's with fingerprint, retina scan etc. Althought the technology is there. Using it on a mass-scale hasnt been done yet.

Belly_Dancer

CoolHat wrote: »

:pac:
In fairness, what do the irish government define as Biometric ... didnt the new version passports that came out a few years ago boast about bio metrics?
And it was just an indentation of your passport picture on the plastic. It wasnt Blade Runner style bio metrics.

We're still a bit away from seeing mass produced ID's with fingerprint, retina scan etc. Althought the technology is there. Using it on a mass-scale hasnt been done yet.

i agree if it's not done properly it'll be of limited use against a professional fraudster, but it will discourage your run of the mill cheatin scummer.

http://www.herald.ie/news/man-accused-of-83645k-social-welfare-fraud-1936909.html

starbelgrade

CreepingDeath wrote: »

Without fingerprints or some other form of biometric recognition, this card is still open to fraud.
.

I have it... they should chop your fingers off when you're unemployed & then you bring them along & have then swiped when you get your dole.