New Social Welfare ID cards introduced.

wild_cat · 07-10-2011 12:07AM

Do they have some sort of photo recognition software on the go or what?

I've heard of people making multiple claims... surely they'll just get multiple ID cards now instead?

How is it meant to catch people out... like if you're a ahem.. welfare tourist does it have GPS built in to track that you are coming and going?

Surely this is the same as asking for the welfare card and asking to see a passport or drivers licence.

Enda Murphy · 07-10-2011 12:07AM

Stinicker wrote: »

What a waste of money, why don't they do it properly and issue mandatory ID cards to the population.

Any time I want to fly Ryanair or fly to the EU I have to take my passport on what is almost an "internal" flight within the common block, with a proper National ID Card I could use it as my ID and not have to risk losing my passport with which I have numerous important visas and is a very important document. I find it a joke and it will probably be hacked and defrauded within a week, I do hope it works and if so there will suddenly be alot of people caught out and no harm either.

In what way would using an national id card for flying within the eu instead of a passport make life better for you? Give as much detail as possible

amacachi · 07-10-2011 12:07AM

phasers wrote: »

Depends, what do they have two of and what do they share?

They're known as "The Skipping Rope".

Belly_Dancer · 07-10-2011 12:08AM

mikemac wrote: »

Well they know you by now, you're a local

You don't need it if the post-mistress knows you

i visited my PO the other day.
the place was choc full, but there was not an Irish accent to be heard. most of them were not living local either, as (through my work) i know everybody in town.

my guess is they come in for a day's dole, then off to another town, and so on.

the Dept really needs to get serious.
ID's. Not before time!

amacachi · 07-10-2011 12:08AM

wild_cat wrote: »

Do they have some sort of photo recognition software on the go or what?

I've heard of people making multiple claims... surely they'll just get multiple ID cards now instead?

How is it meant to catch people out... like if you're a ahem.. welfare tourist does it have GPS built in to track that you are coming and going?

Surely this is the same as asking for the welfare card and asking to see a passport or drivers licence.

Aye, making seperate claims requires seperate PPS numbers. How putting a picture on them will help is something I don't know.

LH Pathe · 07-10-2011 12:09AM

The example in the news featured a picture that was black/white and grainy

will that be ok / an option

Mike 1972 · 07-10-2011 12:10AM

woodoo wrote: »

I hope it covers all bases and is virtually unalterable.

Fat chance !

Belly_Dancer wrote: »

as (through my work) i know everybody in town.

You work in the dole office ?

Saila · 07-10-2011 12:11AM

Stinicker wrote: »

What a waste of money, why don't they do it properly and issue mandatory ID cards to the population.

Any time I want to fly Ryanair or fly to the EU I have to take my passport on what is almost an "internal" flight within the common block, with a proper National ID Card I could use it as my ID and not have to risk losing my passport with which I have numerous important visas and is a very important document. I find it a joke and it will probably be hacked and defrauded within a week, I do hope it works and if so there will suddenly be alot of people caught out and no harm either.

whats an important visa

no really, dont they expire?

Stinicker · 07-10-2011 12:14AM

Enda Murphy wrote: »

In what way would using an national id card for flying within the eu instead of a passport make life better for you? Give as much detail as possible

Well it would mean I would not have to use my passport for travel, thus reducing the risk that I might lose or have stolen such a valid travel document.

Most ID cards are credit card sized and I could store the card in my wallet.

If I have my passport stolen I will have to reapply to the different countries involved to get new visas entered into a new passport, this will cost me more time and money.

A proper National ID card would/should be acceptable as valid ID in the few places that require ID for the purposes of alcohol consumption, having to involve your passport in this type of environment would be highly conducive to losing it or having it stolen.

Having a National Card would overall I believe help reduce identity theft and lead to greater savings for the government.

Your reasons against such a card?... in as much detail as possible thanks!

OakeyDokey · 07-10-2011 12:15AM

Sounds good.

Wetai · 07-10-2011 12:16AM

Belly_Dancer wrote: »

Good point Coolhat, but this is why the "The new Public Services Card, which contains biometric information on the cardholder" ie finger-print &/or Iris scan.

Unless our immigrant friend has got 3 different eyeballs then he's ****ed!:D

Glass Eye + replacements.

Belly_Dancer · 07-10-2011 12:17AM

amacachi wrote: »

Aye, making seperate claims requires seperate PPS numbers. How putting a picture on them will help is something I don't know.

well if they utilize iris recognition or finger prints, then you can only have 1 PPS number with 1 set of prints.

if somebody attempts to register a set of prints more than once, then i reckon a very loud claxon will sound, a large net will drop from the cieling, and the offender will be sprayed with indellible ink or somit. :eek:

Mike 1972 · 07-10-2011 12:18AM

Stinicker wrote: »

Having a National Card would overall I believe help reduce identity theft and lead to greater savings for the government.

Au contraire.

The UK recently abandoned a proposed identity card scheme with cost being one of the biggest reasons for doing so. Ireland may of course to be able do implement such a scheme at lower to cost per head but all experience suggest otherwise.

ID cards are a gift to fraudsters too since they only need one card to work with.

if they utilize iris recognition or finger prints

1) Thats a big "IF"
2) Technologies such as iris recognition, fingerprint scanning and even DNA may not be as infallible as is generally supposed. Fingerprint comparisons for example are often based on a small sample of points/features rather than the entire print.

starbelgrade · 07-10-2011 12:20AM

Mike 1972 wrote: »

Au contraire.

*Mike1972 slips into Dell Boy mode*

CreepingDeath · 07-10-2011 12:21AM

Without fingerprints or some other form of biometric recognition, this card is still open to fraud.

Unless they plan on running facial recognition software in the background to try and match photos to spot duplicates,
but I'd say there would be a lot of false positives there.

Belly_Dancer · 07-10-2011 12:23AM

CreepingDeath wrote: »

Without fingerprints or some other form of biometric recognition, this card is still open to fraud.

exactly!

which is why "The new Public Services Card, contains biometric information on the cardholder"

that said they need to be 100% tamper proof to avoid cloning.

Enda Murphy · 07-10-2011 12:24AM

Stinicker wrote: »

Well it would mean I would not have to use my passport for travel, thus reducing the risk that I might lose or have stolen such a valid travel document.

Most ID cards are credit card sized and I could store the card in my wallet.

If I have my passport stolen I will have to reapply to the different countries involved to get new visas entered into a new passport, this will cost me more time and money.

A proper National ID card would/should be acceptable as valid ID in the few places that require ID for the purposes of alcohol consumption, having to involve your passport in this type of environment would be highly conducive to losing it or having it stolen.

Having a National Card would overall I believe help reduce identity theft and lead to greater savings for the government.

Your reasons against such a card?... in as much detail as possible thanks!

If you unable to look after your passport then its most likely you would also lose your national id card, and as you want a mandotory national id would it not be worse to lose that ? Do you think people who dont have their id card on them walking down the street should be thrown in jail ? All kids that want drink and smokes these days have a fake garda age card, What is to stop them making a fake national id card since they can make fake garda ids so easily ?

CoolHat · 07-10-2011 12:26AM

Belly_Dancer wrote: »

Good point Coolhat, but this is why the "The new Public Services Card, which contains biometric information on the cardholder" ie finger-print &/or Iris scan.

Unless our immigrant friend has got 3 different eyeballs then he's ****ed!:D

:pac:
In fairness, what do the irish government define as Biometric ... didnt the new version passports that came out a few years ago boast about bio metrics?
And it was just an indentation of your passport picture on the plastic. It wasnt Blade Runner style bio metrics.

We're still a bit away from seeing mass produced ID's with fingerprint, retina scan etc. Althought the technology is there. Using it on a mass-scale hasnt been done yet.

Belly_Dancer · 07-10-2011 12:30AM

CoolHat wrote: »

:pac:
In fairness, what do the irish government define as Biometric ... didnt the new version passports that came out a few years ago boast about bio metrics?
And it was just an indentation of your passport picture on the plastic. It wasnt Blade Runner style bio metrics.

We're still a bit away from seeing mass produced ID's with fingerprint, retina scan etc. Althought the technology is there. Using it on a mass-scale hasnt been done yet.

i agree if it's not done properly it'll be of limited use against a professional fraudster, but it will discourage your run of the mill cheatin scummer.

http://www.herald.ie/news/man-accused-of-83645k-social-welfare-fraud-1936909.html

starbelgrade · 07-10-2011 12:32AM

CreepingDeath wrote: »

Without fingerprints or some other form of biometric recognition, this card is still open to fraud.
.

I have it... they should chop your fingers off when you're unemployed & then you bring them along & have then swiped when you get your dole.

Mike 1972 · 07-10-2011 12:33AM

CoolHat wrote: »

In fairness, what do the irish government define as Biometric ... didnt the new version passports that came out a few years ago boast about bio metrics?

An anyways competent government would be actively trying to REDUCE the number of identiry cards/documents one has to carry in order to access its various departments/agencies while improving the security of the cards and the process for obtaining same.

It is laughably easy to get a false driving licence. On the other hand the process of obtaining a passport can be fraught with the most ludicrous and pointless bureaucracy.

Mahatma coat · 07-10-2011 12:34AM

If you unable to look after your passport then its most likely you would also lose your national id card, and as you want a mandotory national id would it not be worse to lose that ? Do you think people who dont have their id card on them walking down the street should be thrown in jail ? All kids that want drink and smokes these days have a fake garda age card, What is to stop them making a fake national id card since they can make fake garda ids so easily ?

He makes a Valid point about the Passport.

When I lived in Australia I had to Carry my Passport as ID for a while, luckily I never lost it, but at the same Time I did lose a lot of other stuff in my drunken ramblings such as my Driving licence( which led to the ned to carry the Passport) Renewing a Driving licence or such is fairly asy, especially in Austrlia, you just ring em up give em your mane, D.O.B and Credit card number anda new one is posted to you.

Renewing a Pasport is a whole other ballgame, you have to jump through hoops toget the Passport, then depending on how many Visas you have running you have to jump through as many hoops with each individual embassy, For some people this can be a lot of Embassies, in my case I had Work permits for Australia, PNG, The Solomon Islands & Timor running at the same time. Those permits were Fuppin hard to get in the first place, The Solomons would have been an imposibility to renew had I lost the Passport due to its link to Julian Motti.

keysersoze0330 · 07-10-2011 12:35AM

This card is 10 years too late. This should have been rolled out will the fingerprint/ retina feature that will arrive in another 10 years. By this time the scammers will have found a way around this. Typical Ireland really. 10 years behind.

CoolHat · 07-10-2011 12:38AM

Belly_Dancer wrote: »

i agree if it's not done properly it'll be of limited use against a professional fraudster, but it will discourage your run of the mill cheatin scummer.

http://www.herald.ie/news/man-accused-of-83645k-social-welfare-fraud-1936909.html

Interesting article.

See, i dunno if its just me, But i think there is automatically a way around these cards. And Im not talking about duplicating or anything :P
Its just we already have fraudsters. They're already in the system. Sure this will stamp out a good few. But what about the ones already on false identities? (as opposed to welfare tourists, a guy using his real name and also another etc)

Like if I was african and my false identity was Joesph Akintola. I could still legit work as my real name over here. (best of both worlds)

robbie_998 · 07-10-2011 12:39AM

Are people who are not even on the Dole getting these ?

i assume not but it be an overall bad idea if everyone did ?

i dont like the idea of the PPS number being written on the card itself.
what were to happen if you lost it be it on a bus/taxi/train or the likes and it got into the wrong hands ?

i dunno i can't see this going very smoothly in all honestly.

Belly_Dancer · 07-10-2011 12:39AM

i would wager that the vast majority of scummers who defraud the system are not criminal masterminds, but near simpletons who recognise a system that is childishly easily to cheat.

in fairness our system is a joke, is just asking to be ****ed.

http://www.irishexaminer.com/ireland/kfgbgbeyaucw/rss2/

Mike 1972 · 07-10-2011 12:44AM

keysersoze0330 wrote: »

Typical Ireland really. 10 years behind.

The fact that Ireland still uses paper driving licences is a bit of a joke. Just about every other EU country uses standardised photocards (credit card sized with standard layout so no "Prawo Jazdy" language fukups) some even have smart chips and incorporate Social welfare/tax/driving licence/age card (and eventually passport) on one card. And rather than having information "on" the card its on centralised databases so easier to update and keep accurate.

The current white plastic RSI/PPS cards date from the 1990's and guess what -yup they were going to eliminate fraud and save money.

Even passports (in their current form) are pretty cumbersome and anachronistic but fixing it would require just about every country in the world moving together (coordinating 200 sets of idiot politicians and state bureaucracies aint easy) and even then it would take a decade or more.

robbie_998 wrote: »

Are people who are not even on the Dole getting these ? .

If the existing cards are anything to go by yes. They get issued when one first starts working/attending college/signing on/moving into the country.

Enda Murphy · 07-10-2011 12:44AM

Mahatma coat wrote: »

He makes a Valid point about the Passport.

When I lived in Australia I had to Carry my Passport as ID for a while, luckily I never lost it, but at the same Time I did lose a lot of other stuff in my drunken ramblings such as my Driving licence( which led to the ned to carry the Passport) Renewing a Driving licence or such is fairly asy, especially in Austrlia, you just ring em up give em your mane, D.O.B and Credit card number anda new one is posted to you.

Renewing a Pasport is a whole other ballgame, you have to jump through hoops toget the Passport, then depending on how many Visas you have running you have to jump through as many hoops with each individual embassy, For some people this can be a lot of Embassies, in my case I had Work permits for Australia, PNG, The Solomon Islands & Timor running at the same time. Those permits were Fuppin hard to get in the first place, The Solomons would have been an imposibility to renew had I lost the Passport due to its link to Julian Motti.

Thing is why be worried about losing your passport traveling to uk or france ? Would you not be alot more likely to lose your passport traveling to the other side of the world? A passport is for travel simple as that does not matter if you are going to italy or new zealand

Belly_Dancer · 07-10-2011 12:44AM

CoolHat wrote: »

Interesting article.

See, i dunno if its just me, But i think there is automatically a way around these cards. And Im not talking about duplicating or anything :P
Its just we already have fraudsters. They're already in the system. Sure this will stamp out a good few. But what about the ones already on false identities? (as opposed to welfare tourists, a guy using his real name and also another etc)

Like if I was african and my false identity was Joesph Akintola. I could still legit work as my real name over here. (best of both worlds)

not if you need the same BIOMETRIC ID to get a job/your wages. a properly functioning system should alert the authorities that something is not right.
fingers crossed.:eek:

Belly_Dancer · 07-10-2011 12:50AM

Mike 1972 wrote: »

The fact that Ireland still uses paper driving licences is a bit of a joke. Just about every other EU country uses standardised photocards (credit card sized with standard layout so no "Prawo Jazdy" language fukups) some even have smart chips and incorporate Social welfare/tax/driving licence/age card (and eventually passport) on one card. And rather than having information "on" the card its on centralised databases so easier to update and keep accurate.

The current white plastic RSI/PPS cards date from the 1990's and guess what -yup they were going to eliminate fraud and save money.

in order for this to work they will need an almighty big fricken computer.

(i got a reconditioned Toshiba if they want i could let them have it. for a fair price of course)>

New Social Welfare ID cards introduced.

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