Formula 1: Round 15 - Japanese Grand Prix

Voodu Child

If you look at the GPS you can see how it happened.









Shumi and Webber were a fair distance back, there is no point prior where they could have overtaken Hamilton. They only came up to Hamilton right before the chicane.

Its all very well to say they all should have been out 30 seconds beforehand but we know that's not the way it works. Last over the line often benefits so inevitably there's going to be guys fighting over the same piece of tarmac sometimes.

robinph

frostie500 wrote: »

How exactly did Webber block Hamilton, he overtook him on corner entry and then made it through the Triangle Chicane as quickly as possible from his entry line

In the same way that Hamilton blocked Schumacher and Webber...in that he didn't. Hamilton backed of a lot once Webber went past and was very slow around the remainder of the chicane. If he'd put his foot down though he'd have either just driven into the back of Schumacher as he skidded across the track, or been too close to Webber to make a lap worthwhile completing. That is why Webber and Schumacher went past, they realised that they needed to be in the space that Hamilton had created for himself. Hamilton would still have made the time if Webber had not gone past, but there is no requirement for Hamilton to have to speed up just so that the guy behind, who is also running it too close to the cut off time, can make it through. None of them were on hot laps.

Nobody blocked anyone. Everyone was too late out of the pits.

amacachi wrote: »

Schumi missed the line by a second at most, did you notice how much momentum he lost from cutting the chicane?

There was plenty of space. It may not have been ideal and it may have been in turbulent air but again, tough titty, you can't block someone else just to suit yourself.

People are entitled to a clear run and not have their qualifying interfered with by someone not on a flying lap, Hamilton wasn't on a flying lap and interfered with their session. I'm not saying it definitely warranted a penalty but something could've been given but next time he knocks a wheel off someone's car BBC will be moaning about him being picked on.

BBC are certainly not saying anything like Hamilton can do no wrong. Did you see the segment in the pre-show where they went through the previous incidents this year? They were mostly saying the various things were his fault, except for in Spa where EJ was being blind to the facts when DC was showing him Kobiashi turning in on Hamilton in the slow-mo and so it wasn't actually Hamiltons fault after all.

frostie500

robinph wrote: »

In the same way that Hamilton blocked Schumacher and Webber...in that he didn't. Hamilton backed of a lot once Webber went past and was very slow around the remainder of the chicane. If he'd put his foot down though he'd have either just driven into the back of Schumacher as he skidded across the track, or been too close to Webber to make a lap worthwhile completing. That is why Webber and Schumacher went past, they realised that they needed to be in the space that Hamilton had created for himself. Hamilton would still have made the time if Webber had not gone past, but there is no requirement for Hamilton to have to speed up just so that the guy behind, who is also running it too close to the cut off time, can make it through. None of them were on hot laps.

Nobody blocked anyone. Everyone was too late out of the pits.

You are correct in saying that there's no requirement to speed up if another driver is close behind but as you can see from this image Hamilton is in the middle of the race track at a vastly reduced speed.



If he take the inside, or outside, line he leaves enough of the circuit for Webber to pass safely, he would also have left enough room for Schumi. Because he stays in the middle of the track as he brakes into the chicane Webber has moved through and Lewis has to ease off the brakes and run wider away from the apex which is now covered by the Red Bull. as you can see from the second image this has forced Schumi to take avoiding action off the circuit because there was no opportunity for Schumi to overtake him safely before coming into the corner.

As I said earlier regardless of whether the drivers would have been able to make it to the start finish line is completely irrelevant because the track was green at this point

Ghost Train

All 3 to blame for where they found themselves. Hamilton though was in a position where he could have got over the line, maybe was a bit greedy looking for more space. On good side of grid so might work ok for him. Could make it more interesting for the race.

amacachi

robinph wrote: »

In the same way that Hamilton blocked Schumacher and Webber...in that he didn't. Hamilton backed of a lot once Webber went past and was very slow around the remainder of the chicane. If he'd put his foot down though he'd have either just driven into the back of Schumacher as he skidded across the track, or been too close to Webber to make a lap worthwhile completing. That is why Webber and Schumacher went past, they realised that they needed to be in the space that Hamilton had created for himself. Hamilton would still have made the time if Webber had not gone past, but there is no requirement for Hamilton to have to speed up just so that the guy behind, who is also running it too close to the cut off time, can make it through. None of them were on hot laps.

Nobody blocked anyone. Everyone was too late out of the pits.

You say there's no requirement to not block someone while they're not on fast laps, so why did Alonso get a penalty in Hungary 07?

BBC are certainly not saying anything like Hamilton can do no wrong. Did you see the segment in the pre-show where they went through the previous incidents this year? They were mostly saying the various things were his fault, except for in Spa where EJ was being blind to the facts when DC was showing him Kobiashi turning in on Hamilton in the slow-mo and so it wasn't actually Hamiltons fault after all.

They're being far too easy on him. In the incident with Kobayashi, what should he have done? Drive straight on off the track?


EDIT: In the last pic Frostie put up you can see that Schumacher was neck-and-neck with Webber. Had Hamilton not been in the way then Schumi would've made the line in time. He wouldn't have had much space but I'm sure he would've fallen back over the lap anyway. Hamilton is within his rights to try and find space but not when it affects other drivers.

robinph

amacachi wrote: »

You say there's no requirement to not block someone while they're not on fast laps, so why did Alonso get a penalty in Hungary 07?

Can't remember that one right now.

amacachi wrote: »

They're being far too easy on him. In the incident with Kobayashi, what should he have done? Drive straight on off the track?

Are you saying that Hamilton was planning on not taking the corner as well then?

robinph

Clearly open to interpretation, and any pre-existing bias.

The sequence of images from Voodu Child show to me that Vettel, Massa, Button and Hamilton all went through the chicane at about the same spacing. Although Massa slows a lot more on the exit to get back from Vettel. Hamilton was exactly where he should have been in terms of distance behind Button.

The other set of onboard images from frostie500 don't show anything out of order. When you see the full clip in real time, slowed down doesn't help, then you can see exactly where Hamilton is slowing down. He does slow down earlier before the chicane than you would in race, and he then slows down half way through once Webber is in front, but I think he had actually given up at that point as he knew he was on the cut off. Perfectly normal to take the last corner slow before starting the hot lap, what Webber had to do to make the cut-off was not normal.

amacachi

robinph wrote: »

Can't remember that one right now.

Alonso sat in the pits near the end of the session which stopped Hamilton from being able to get tyres changed and get out in time. But he was just looking for track position right? According to the marshals he impeded Hamilton.

Are you saying that Hamilton was planning on not taking the corner as well then?

He was taking his damn time about it. He seemed to expect a red carpet to be let through.


Anyway, obviously we're not going to agree so I'll leave it at this:
Schumi was dead level with Webber but had to jump the chicane because of Hamilton going slowly. Whatever his reason for going slow, it impeded Schumacher.

robinph

amacachi wrote: »

EDIT: In the last pic Frostie put up you can see that Schumacher was neck-and-neck with Webber. Had Hamilton not been in the way then Schumi would've made the line in time. He wouldn't have had much space but I'm sure he would've fallen back over the lap anyway. Hamilton is within his rights to try and find space but not when it affects other drivers.

The other drivers impeded themselves by leaving the pits too late on a crowded track. Did they not notice that there were a queue of people infront of them who were all going to be trying to find space which would spread them all out further.

If Hamilton is at fault for holding up Webber and Schumacher, then Button is at fault for holding up Hamilton, Massa is at fault for holding up Button and Vettel is at fault for holding up Massa.

That is clearly daft though.

amacachi

robinph wrote: »

The other drivers impeded themselves by leaving the pits too late on a crowded track. Did they not notice that there were a queue of people infront of them who were all going to be trying to find space which would spread them all out further.

If Hamilton is at fault for holding up Webber and Schumacher, then Button is at fault for holding up Hamilton, Massa is at fault for holding up Button and Vettel is at fault for holding up Massa.

That is clearly daft though.

No-one else impeded anyone else though. Trying to find space doesn't allow someone to block someone else.

frostie500

robinph wrote: »

The other drivers impeded themselves by leaving the pits too late on a crowded track. Did they not notice that there were a queue of people infront of them who were all going to be trying to find space which would spread them all out further.

If Hamilton is at fault for holding up Webber and Schumacher, then Button is at fault for holding up Hamilton, Massa is at fault for holding up Button and Vettel is at fault for holding up Massa.

That is clearly daft though.

To be honest the main point I'm making is that Lewis impeded other drivers on track, there is no way that it can be argued that Button cost Hamilton his lap by the way.

If Lewis wants to create space for himself he is perfectly entitled to do so but only if he doesnt impede other competitors. Thats the point I'm making about Hamilton. It's all fine and well to say that they should have known better(obviously they should have timed things better) but Hamilton's decision to sit in the middle of the track cost another competitor their final qualifying effort. Thats the only point I'm really looking to make

robinph

amacachi wrote: »

Alonso sat in the pits near the end of the session which stopped Hamilton from being able to get tyres changed and get out in time. But he was just looking for track position right? According to the marshals he impeded Hamilton.

Ahh, that one. Well he could have found track position whilst on the track during the out lap I guess is the thinking behind that penalty.

amacachi

robinph wrote: »

Ahh, that one. Well he could have found track position whilst on the track during the out lap I guess is the thinking behind that penalty.

So it would've been ok if he'd blocked someone on track instead? :pac:

amacachi

Anyway, all's I was getting at was that in my opinion they could've penalised. I'm not saying they should have because it could get messy in future, just that there was no suggestion of the Stewards investigating. IMO it very much takes the wind out of the victimised card.

robinph

amacachi wrote: »

IMO it very much takes the wind out of the victimised card.

No victimisation, that is all in his head.

Hamilton has just had all the bad luck this year. Vettel has had all the good luck.

amacachi

So which of the McLarens will have the cleanest race and take the win? :pac:

robinph

Simples, Button.

maygitchell

Morning all, looking for a good race today

amacachi

robinph wrote: »

Simples, Button.

Fingers crossed, good start for Hamilton would throw the cat amongst the pigeons.

amacachi

maygitchell wrote: »

Morning all, looking for a good race today

Once it's not too exciting at the end, I want to get some sleep straight afterwards :pac:

Charlie-Bravo

saw the in-car shot of Hamilton coming up to the chicane, Hamilton did slow down because button was closely ahead of him and within the blink of an eye there was Webber and Schumi alongside him. The winner in all of that was Webber but didn't manage to set a better time than Hamilton's earlier lap.

maygitchell

amacachi wrote: »

Once it's not too exciting at the end, I want to get some sleep straight afterwards :pac:

Rugby yesterday now the race today, still it doesnt happen too often!

amacachi

maygitchell wrote: »

Rugby yesterday now the race today, still it doesnt happen too often!

Rugby Union isn't exciting :pac:

smellslikeshoes

Was watching a film there and got a fright when I looked at the time, thought the race was starting at 6, was sure I had after missing half an hour of it.

amacachi

Aye, the 7am starts still don't feel right to me. Race used to come later so the clocks would be an hour back and I'm sure the race used to start earlier in the day so it was a 5am kick-off.

maygitchell

amacachi wrote: »

Aye, the 7am starts still don't feel right to me. Race used to come later so the clocks would be an hour back and I'm sure the race used to start earlier in the day so it was a 5am kick-off.

Explains why I woke at half four this morning!

amacachi

Good to be back in Asia for the Lovely Girls at the end. :pac:

bamboozling

Can't wait for this, come on Button!

amacachi

Actually a pretty damn long-looking DRS zone.

amacachi

Good start from Schumacher Vettel.

EDIT: Anyone glad Kobayashi got a bad start? More people for him to overtake. :pac: