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The Bible, Creationism, and Prophecy (part 2)

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    #6812
    ouxbbkqtswdfaw
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,253 ✭✭✭ouxbbkqtswdfaw


    Bogwoppit wrote:
    I’m not trying to fool him, I’m going to hell yes, I accept that. Every future generation will be without sin though.
    If you understood what hell is, Bogwoppit, you still wouldn't do it.


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    #6813
    ouxbbkqtswdfaw
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,253 ✭✭✭ouxbbkqtswdfaw


    Why would you want to be outside Heaven?


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    #6814
    ouxbbkqtswdfaw
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,253 ✭✭✭ouxbbkqtswdfaw


    You would regret it the second you enter hell.


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    #6815
    ouxbbkqtswdfaw
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,253 ✭✭✭ouxbbkqtswdfaw


    No one is destined for hell, except the one who is meant to be there.


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    #6816
    ouxbbkqtswdfaw
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,253 ✭✭✭ouxbbkqtswdfaw


    I said destined, by which I mean he can do nothing about it.


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    #6817
    ouxbbkqtswdfaw
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,253 ✭✭✭ouxbbkqtswdfaw


    We all ask ourselves "Am I the one?" Just like the apostles at the last supper.


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    #6818
    ouxbbkqtswdfaw
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,253 ✭✭✭ouxbbkqtswdfaw


    You are not the one, if you just make an effort to love God.


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    #6819
    ouxbbkqtswdfaw
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,253 ✭✭✭ouxbbkqtswdfaw


    The one who is destined to be lost, is the one who cannot make the effort.


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    #6820
    Bogwoppit
    Registered Users Posts: 2,600 ✭✭✭Bogwoppit


    lw8ey69ntifmph wrote: »
    I said destined, by which I mean he can do nothing about it.

    So he’s not all powerful then.


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    #6821
    Bogwoppit
    Registered Users Posts: 2,600 ✭✭✭Bogwoppit


    lw8ey69ntifmph wrote: »
    If you understood what hell is, Bogwoppit, you still wouldn't do it.

    You’re still not addressing what I’m saying, avoid it by saying I wouldn’t do it or I can’t fool god or I’d regret it afterwards are not addressing what I’m asking.


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    #6822
    Delirium
    Moderators Posts: 51,726 ✭✭✭✭Delirium


    MOD NOTE

    Please keep to the topic everyone.

    @owenybaloney

    Please cease with the aggressive homophobic language "Homosexuality is a sin that cries to the High Heavens for Vengence."

    Thanks for your attention.

    If you can read this, you're too close!



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    #6823
    Leroy42
    Registered Users Posts: 15,509 ✭✭✭✭Leroy42


    But didn't Jesus sacrifice himself for the world, so God understands the purpose of sacrifice. Wouldn't the act of not teaching kids about God, and thus remove the ability of them to refuse him, be seen as the ultimate act of love?

    Surely love is what this is all about, and that act, totally unselfish and loving, by its very nature would actually get that person, ie you, into heaven.

    Your position, owenbaloney, seems to be that you will look after yourself. How is that in line with gods message

    And you still haven't been able to answer the question about why god would refuse a person into heaven? It seems,to me at least, that it is based on our interpretation of fairness, rather that a loving merciful gods. Since we cannot, and do not, know if people actually go to hell, the mere suggestion serves it purpose. Why would a god then need to follow through and actually send one of his children to eternity in hell?


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    #6824
    Achasanai
    Closed Accounts Posts: 730 ✭✭✭Achasanai


    Bob_Marley wrote: »
    I always suspected you as a useful plant for anti-Christians, know I know for sure. And this thread has nothing to do with homosexuality.

    To be fair, he's doing a great job of deflecting from what the thread is about and allowing a hell of a lot of questions some 5 pages back now about the inconsistencies of a literal interpretation of the Bible go unanswered.

    Which I understand as a poster was talking about underground reservoirs and floating vegetation mats.


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    #6825
    robinph
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 24,087 Mod ✭✭✭✭robinph


    Achasanai wrote: »
    Bob_Marley wrote: »
    I always suspected you as a useful plant for anti-Christians, know I know for sure. And this thread has nothing to do with homosexuality.

    To be fair, he's doing a great job of deflecting from what the thread is about and allowing a hell of a lot of questions some 5 pages back now about the inconsistencies of a literal interpretation of the Bible go unanswered.

    Which I understand as a poster was talking about underground reservoirs and floating vegetation mats.
    I still want to know why nobody else built a boat and how the trees made it onto the vegetation mats but no other animals did?


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    #6826
    Bob_Marley
    Closed Accounts Posts: 626 ✭✭✭Bob_Marley


    robinph wrote: »
    I still want to know why nobody else built a boat and how the trees made it onto the vegetation mats but no other animals did?

    I want to know why anti-theists and ill educated american fundamentalists think everything in ancient spiritual literature is literal ?


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    #6827
    Safehands
    Registered Users Posts: 1,360 ✭✭✭Safehands


    Bob_Marley wrote: »
    I want to know why anti-theists and ill educated american fundamentalists think everything in ancient spiritual literature is literal ?

    I presume you have read the posts on this thread. Quite a few posters take the story of Noah quite literally. This are the ones who are being questioned. Most rational people don't take such stories literally. They are stories, nothing more.


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    #6828
    Bob_Marley
    Closed Accounts Posts: 626 ✭✭✭Bob_Marley


    Safehands wrote: »
    I presume you have read the posts on this thread. Quite a few posters take the story of Noah quite literally. This are the ones who are being questioned. Most rational people don't take such stories literally. They are stories, nothing more.

    I see proportionately very few Christians ever doing so on this forum, or this thread. In fact most of the Christians posts here are saying the exact opposite over and over, but this is ignored by anti-theists. The one or two Christian exceptions that do believe in creationism, are perfect fun troll bait, I'll grant you that, but they are not very representative of Christians as a whole. This thread was largely created, and is maintained here, to poke fun at JC's completely wrong notions about evolution. Pretty pathetic and repetitive really.


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    #6829
    Leroy42
    Registered Users Posts: 15,509 ✭✭✭✭Leroy42


    anti-theists? I would see very few posters on this thread that are in that area, atheists yes, but actually against the notion of a god?

    Most on here question the basis for belief, question the logic behind the stories and the reason for believing one thing which seems to ignore others.


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    #6830
    Bob_Marley
    Closed Accounts Posts: 626 ✭✭✭Bob_Marley


    Leroy42 wrote: »
    anti-theists? I would see very few posters on this thread that are in that area, atheists yes, but actually against the notion of a god?

    Most on here question the basis for belief, question the logic behind the stories and the reason for believing one thing which seems to ignore others.

    A atheist is simply someone who does not believe in God's existence. After that, they have nothing in common.

    Anti-Christians / or Anti-theists however, will often try to make straw-man claims about how Christian scripture should be interpreted, or about what all Christians believe and profess, as apposed to what they actually do.


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    #6831
    Achasanai
    Closed Accounts Posts: 730 ✭✭✭Achasanai


    Bob_Marley wrote: »
    I see proportionately very few Christians ever doing so on this forum, or this thread.

    The thread is about creationism. It's even in the title! Regardless of whether the majority of Christian posters here believe in a literal interpretation of the Bible doesn't matter: the point is to debate whether you can interpret the Bible in a literal sense.

    It's also wrong to suggest that the Bible wasn't intended to be taken literally. Some of it clearly was, while some was intended as creating origin myths for a group of people. When you have a collection of books, incorporating numerous different genres, written my numerous different people, it's nearly impossible to say that 'they' weren't trying to say such-and-such a thing. It's more complex than that.


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    #6832
    Leroy42
    Registered Users Posts: 15,509 ✭✭✭✭Leroy42


    Bob_Marley wrote: »
    A atheist is simply someone who does not believe in God's existence. After that, they have nothing in common.

    Anti-Christians / or Anti-theists however, will often try to make straw-man claims about how Christian scripture should be interpreted, or about what all Christians believe and profess, as apposed to what they actually do.

    Yeah, thanks for the dictionary lesson. An anti-theist would be someone who not only believes that God does not exist but also is against the idea of God's existence.

    I certainly have seen very few posters on that level. Certainly plenty asking questions, but the use of the term anti-theists calls into question their motivation, as if they are as closed minded as the religious they are questioning, when in most cases atheists are very open minded to evidence.


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    #6833
    Bob_Marley
    Closed Accounts Posts: 626 ✭✭✭Bob_Marley


    Leroy42 wrote: »
    Yeah, thanks for the dictionary lesson. An anti-theist would be someone who not only believes that God does not exist but also is against the idea of God's existence.

    I certainly have seen very few posters on that level. Certainly plenty asking questions, but the use of the term anti-theists calls into question their motivation, as if they are as closed minded as the religious they are questioning, when in most cases atheists are very open minded to evidence.

    Actually as well as just some questions, this thread is full of false claims and strawmen about Christianity and what all Christians believe, and no matter how many times they are refuted they are repeated a few pages later ad nausuem and round it goes in circles.


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    #6834
    Leroy42
    Registered Users Posts: 15,509 ✭✭✭✭Leroy42


    The last few pages, in particular, has seen questions of peoples stated position.

    Nuclear winter, only believers get into heaven etc.

    Since the entire, and in fact only, basis for believing in any of it is the bible it is not unfair for people to call into question many of the beliefs.

    That many christians have nowadays accepted that most of the bible is a story only goes to undermine the entire basis for their belief. That they have accepted it yet continue to believe other parts shows, imo, how shallow it all is.


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    #6835
    Bob_Marley
    Closed Accounts Posts: 626 ✭✭✭Bob_Marley


    Leroy42 wrote: »
    That many christians have nowadays accepted that most of the bible is a story only goes to undermine the entire basis for their belief.

    Classic example of an anti-Christian false claim / strawman argument. The bible is a library of books that consists of many different genres, styles and literally devices from many different eras. Ironically, anti-Christians and ill educated american style fundamentalists claim it should be read literally in all cases regardless of the context. Traditionally Christians (or Jews either for the old testament) never claimed this.


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    #6836
    Leroy42
    Registered Users Posts: 15,509 ✭✭✭✭Leroy42


    So where do people get belief in god? The basis is the bible.

    How have christians decided which parts are true and literal and which are just stories?

    People swear on the bible, not only parts of it. It is disingenuous to claim it is only partially true.

    I have more respect for the likes of JC than the a la carte religious. He understands that its all or nothing, and as such becomes increasingly illogical to try to maintain that position.

    Many christians accept that many parts of it are untrue and not the word of god, except for those bits that suit their own opinions and suddenly that is the word of god.


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    #6837
    Bob_Marley
    Closed Accounts Posts: 626 ✭✭✭Bob_Marley


    Leroy42 wrote: »
    So where do people get belief in god? The basis is the bible.

    Strange claim, that all the theism in the world is based on the bible. How does that explain all the other religions in the world, very clearly not based on it ? And you can read the bible to kingdom come, it won't cause belief in God. It would be as pointless as a deaf person listening to music to understand it. Belief comes from spiritual experience assisted by genuine and open prayer, not a dry reading of books.
    Leroy42 wrote: »
    How have christians decided which parts are true and literal and which are just stories?

    By simply understanding literally devices and genres. Do you really believe when you read 'it was raining cats and dogs" that it physically was, or they were trying to claim it physically was ? Or do you think it's impossible that they actually meant heavy rain ?
    Leroy42 wrote: »
    People swear on the bible, not only parts of it. It is disingenuous to claim it is only partially true.

    I have more respect for the likes of JC than the a la carte religious. He understands that its all or nothing, and as such becomes increasingly illogical to try to maintain that position.

    Many christians accept that many parts of it are untrue and not the word of god, except for those bits that suit their own opinions and suddenly that is the word of god.

    Are you really claiming that true can only mean literally true. If someone writes it was raining cats and dogs, to describe how heavy the rain was, why is it not true that it was raining heavily ? - I really wish a basic understanding of writing was better taught in schools, it really is appalling.


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    #6838
    antiskeptic
    Registered Users Posts: 9,555 ✭✭✭antiskeptic


    Leroy42 wrote: »
    So where do people get belief in god? The basis is the bible.

    The basis in the case of myself and many others was a personal encounter with something. The Bible turned out to contain a description of the something which matched the characteristics of and gave the reasons for my encounter with the something. And so confidence in the Bible as something produced by the something.


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    #6839
    robinph
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 24,087 Mod ✭✭✭✭robinph


    Bob_Marley wrote: »
    robinph wrote: »
    I still want to know why nobody else built a boat and how the trees made it onto the vegetation mats but no other animals did?

    I want to know why anti-theists and ill educated american fundamentalists think everything in ancient spiritual literature is literal ?
    Certainly don't think that it is intended to be read as literal, the questions in this thread are mostly being dealt with by theists who do though. Those questions were not even to do with anything taken literally from the bible, they are theories given by the theist posters in attempts to fill holes in their litteral reading of the bible.

    They will go silent for a while now though until the topic changes a bit, and then jump in with something about how dinosaurs were around a few thousand years ago and fossils are formed instantly or similar.


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    #6840
    J C
    Registered Users Posts: 14,615 ✭✭✭✭J C


    Leroy42 wrote: »
    So where do people get belief in god? The basis is the bible.

    How have christians decided which parts are true and literal and which are just stories?

    People swear on the bible, not only parts of it. It is disingenuous to claim it is only partially true.
    It is not only disingenuous it is total heresy to claim that any part of the Bible is untrue.
    If some of Bible is untrue, we cannot trust anything in it including the divinity of Jesus Christ.
    Leroy42 wrote: »
    I have more respect for the likes of JC than the a la carte religious. He understands that its all or nothing, and as such becomes increasingly illogical to try to maintain that position.
    There is nothing illogical about anything in the Bible ... and Christians, like myself don't take a literal reading of the Bible ... we take a plain reading of the bible ... reading it as poetry, where poetry is obviously used, as a parable, where a parable is obviously meant, as allegory, where allegory is obviously meant and as literal history or literal commands, where this is obviously meant, as well.
    Leroy42 wrote: »
    Many christians accept that many parts of it are untrue and not the word of god, except for those bits that suit their own opinions and suddenly that is the word of god.
    ... and therby they effectively undermine the very basis of Christianity that God literally Created everything in Heaven and Earth ... that there was a literal Adam and Eve who fell and introduced sin and death and a literal Jesus Christ (or second Adam) who was God incarnated who came to atone for all sin.


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    #6841
    J C
    Registered Users Posts: 14,615 ✭✭✭✭J C


    robinph wrote: »
    Certainly don't think that it is intended to be read as literal, the questions in this thread are mostly being dealt with by theists who do though. Those questions were not even to do with anything taken literally from the bible, they are theories given by the theist posters in attempts to fill holes in their litteral reading of the bible.

    They will go silent for a while now though until the topic changes a bit, and then jump in with something about how dinosaurs were around a few thousand years ago and fossils are formed instantly or similar.
    I have never 'gone silent' when any Creation Science (or Biblical) principle or idea was challenged.
    I did note that other Christians who have a 'pick and mix' attitude, go rapidly silent, never to be heard of again, in many cases, when their various heresies are challenged.

    ... and they also rapidly 'run into the sand' when various aspects of the Bible and Christianity are challenged.


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