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The Bible, Creationism, and Prophecy (part 2)

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    #6722
    Leroy42
    Registered Users Posts: 15,564 ✭✭✭✭Leroy42


    lw8ey69ntifmph wrote: »
    Look, the whole thing is a mystery. We don't understand mysteries. The flood happened in a mysterious way which we don't understand. We have to accept it by Faith. We could argue till the cows come home. Neither side has a monopoly about it. Just accept it that God worked in mysterious ways.

    First off you have no evidence that the flood happened at all.
    So now you have made up a flood,based on a process you don't understand (thus made up).
    Next, why do you need to accept it by faith? Because there is no other way under which you can accept it. But do you accept that the pyramids were built by aliens?
    You aren't arguing, well you are but only in terms of making up claims and then complaining when others either question them or reject them.
    One side very much does have a monopoly on it. One side has proven that it didn't happen and couldn't happen (you have already acknowledge this). The other side have a story. And nothing else.
    Do you think Harry Potter should be treated in the same respect that is given to your religion?
    On what basis do you think God works in mysterious ways? What can you prove that he has done that shows that position to be correct? There is no examples, apart from your book, to show that the laws that we understand have been changed to create something mysterious. Give an example of God working in mysterious ways


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    #6723
    Safehands
    Registered Users Posts: 1,360 ✭✭✭Safehands


    robinph wrote: »
    But there is not one single bit of evidence to back up any of these claims in the slightest, other than what you have read in a book.

    Exactly. I was responding to my old sparring partner JC, who says he is a scientist. Creationists believe that the Bible is the only evidence they require. Fair enough, I suppose. But when one of them claims to be a scientist, then he needs to be challenged, because scientifically, the bible does not hold up to any form of examination.


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    #6724
    Leroy42
    Registered Users Posts: 15,564 ✭✭✭✭Leroy42


    lw8ey69ntifmph wrote: »
    Good man, at least you have made a decision.

    What decision have you made? You decided to belief in God? Surely that isn't a decision, belief is either something we do or not.
    Atheist don't 'decide' to not believe, they just don't. Do you think you could just decide to believe in a different God in the morning just because?


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    #6725
    robinph
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 24,092 Mod ✭✭✭✭robinph


    Leroy42 wrote: »
    Do you think Harry Potter should be treated in the same respect that is given to your religion?

    Was just thinking that Harry Potter had as much, if not more, evidence of actually happening than the bible myself. :D


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    #6726
    Safehands
    Registered Users Posts: 1,360 ✭✭✭Safehands


    lw8ey69ntifmph wrote: »
    I know you have no shred of evidence for God. He didn't enlighten you. I wonder why? We're you always a non believer? If so, I know why He didn't enlighten you.

    No, I used to be a believing Catholic, so please tell me what you know.


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    #6727
    ouxbbkqtswdfaw
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,253 ✭✭✭ouxbbkqtswdfaw


    I said if you were always a non believer I would know why.


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    #6728
    ouxbbkqtswdfaw
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,253 ✭✭✭ouxbbkqtswdfaw


    I mean if you were never a believer, you were never destined to be one of God's children.


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    #6729
    Safehands
    Registered Users Posts: 1,360 ✭✭✭Safehands


    lw8ey69ntifmph wrote: »
    I mean if you were never a believer, you were never destined to be one of God's children.

    You see Oweny, you seem to find it easy to accept certain things which make no sense to me. I suppose, in loads of ways, you are probably the lucky one. Blind faith can be very comforting. I have to see some evidence that the stories are real, otherwise they are just that, stories. The fact that you are on here indicates that you are prepared to discuss these issues without taking insult by people who don't agree with your views. I actually think it is wrong for people like me to try to knock people's faith and sincerely held beliefs, especially if they don't really enjoy the debate. You and people like JC are obviously up for it. That's what makes these discussions so interesting and enjoyable.


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    #6730
    ouxbbkqtswdfaw
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,253 ✭✭✭ouxbbkqtswdfaw


    Hi Safehands, and thanks for your comments. But when you read the parable of the sower and the seed, you begin to understand what I am saying. When it comes to the end, God searches into the deepest recesses of your soul, and if He finds even the smallest spark, where even once you prayed to Him in a difficult situation, He will fan that spark into a flame, where it will burn into a mighty fire. This is the Holy Spirit.
    He will not leave you bereft, the reason being, that you prayed even once.


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    #6731
    Professor Moriarty
    Registered Users Posts: 14,368 ✭✭✭✭Professor Moriarty


    lw8ey69ntifmph wrote: »
    Hi Safehands, and thanks for your comments. But when you read the parable of the sower and the seed, you begin to understand what I am saying. When it comes to the end, God searches into the deepest recesses of your soul, and if He finds even the smallest spark, where even once you prayed to Him in a difficult situation, He will fan that spark into a flame, where it will burn into a mighty fire. This is the Holy Spirit.
    He will not leave you bereft, the reason being, that you prayed even once.

    So if you prayed to him once then you won't go to hell? Excellent.


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    #6732
    ouxbbkqtswdfaw
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,253 ✭✭✭ouxbbkqtswdfaw


    Professor Moriarty wrote:
    So if you prayed to him once then you won't go to hell? Excellent.


    Yes, because He is infinitely merciful, and if you prayed with sincere intent, He does not forget it. Of course, when you know this, you will amend your life.


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    #6733
    Professor Moriarty
    Registered Users Posts: 14,368 ✭✭✭✭Professor Moriarty


    lw8ey69ntifmph wrote: »
    Yes, because He is infinitely merciful, and if you prayed with sincere intent, He does not forget it. Of course, when you know this, you will amend your life.

    I'm happy with all of that except for the amend bit. That ship has sailed.


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    #6734
    ouxbbkqtswdfaw
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,253 ✭✭✭ouxbbkqtswdfaw


    Professor Moriarty wrote:
    I'm happy with all of that except for the amend bit. That ship has sailed.

    That's unfortunate.


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    #6735
    Professor Moriarty
    Registered Users Posts: 14,368 ✭✭✭✭Professor Moriarty


    lw8ey69ntifmph wrote: »
    That's unfortunate.

    Yeah. No regrets though.


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    #6736
    ouxbbkqtswdfaw
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,253 ✭✭✭ouxbbkqtswdfaw


    Professor Moriarty wrote:
    Yeah. No regrets though.


    Good man yourself.


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    #6737
    Timberrrrrrrr
    Registered Users Posts: 25,486 ✭✭✭✭Timberrrrrrrr


    lw8ey69ntifmph wrote: »
    I mean if you were never a believer, you were never destined to be one of God's children.

    So what of tribes in brazilian rain forests who have never seen a white man never mind heard of tour "god"? Are they destined to burn in "hell"?


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    #6738
    ouxbbkqtswdfaw
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,253 ✭✭✭ouxbbkqtswdfaw


    Timberrrrrrrr wrote:
    So what of tribes in brazilian rain forests who have never seen a white man never mind heard of tour "god"? Are they destined to burn in "hell"?


    No, because they have never heard of Jesus Christ, they are not guilty.


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    #6739
    Bogwoppit
    Registered Users Posts: 2,648 ✭✭✭Bogwoppit


    lw8ey69ntifmph wrote: »
    No, because they have never heard of Jesus Christ, they are not guilty.

    By that logic should we not stop telling kids about JC?
    Keep it all a secret, nodoby’s guilty anymore! Yay!!


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    #6740
    Safehands
    Registered Users Posts: 1,360 ✭✭✭Safehands


    lw8ey69ntifmph wrote: »
    Yes, because He is infinitely merciful, and if you prayed with sincere intent, He does not forget it. Of course, when you know this, you will amend your life.
    Ah yes. This is where we will have to disagree. Infinitely merciful you say.... now. But a few posts back you were saying that people broke his commandments, he gave them a few chances, then wiped them out, killed them all, children and all. Now here is where I have a problem Oweny. That is nowhere close to being infinitely merciful, is it? Or is that just a term you are using without meaning it?


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    #6741
    Timberrrrrrrr
    Registered Users Posts: 25,486 ✭✭✭✭Timberrrrrrrr


    lw8ey69ntifmph wrote: »
    No, because they have never heard of Jesus Christ, they are not guilty.

    Thats not what you said though!
    lw8ey69ntifmph wrote: »
    I mean if you were never a believer, you were never destined to be one of God's children.


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    #6742
    ouxbbkqtswdfaw
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,253 ✭✭✭ouxbbkqtswdfaw


    Bogwoppit wrote:
    By that logic should we not stop telling kids about JC? Keep it all a secret, nodoby’s guilty anymore! Yay!!


    I told you that they never heard of Jesus Christ. Therefore they are not guilty. In the case you mention, you will be held responsible for not teaching your children about Him.


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    #6743
    ouxbbkqtswdfaw
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,253 ✭✭✭ouxbbkqtswdfaw


    There is a vast difference between someone who never heard of Jesus Christ, and someone who has heard and does not believe.


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    #6744
    Leroy42
    Registered Users Posts: 15,564 ✭✭✭✭Leroy42


    lw8ey69ntifmph wrote: »
    I mean if you were never a believer, you were never destined to be one of God's children.

    Aren't we all God's children?


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    #6745
    Professor Moriarty
    Registered Users Posts: 14,368 ✭✭✭✭Professor Moriarty


    lw8ey69ntifmph wrote: »
    There is a vast difference between someone who never heard of Jesus Christ, and someone who has heard and does not believe.

    At what age will God let you off for not believing in him? Say a child is raised a Catholic until aged 3? 6? 9? 12? 15? and then stops believing? When would they be OK.?

    How much instruction must you have been given before God decides you have heard of him?

    What constitutes belief in order to qualify for salvation - strict adherence to every single tenet of the Bible? 75% adherence? 50%? 25%?


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    #6746
    ouxbbkqtswdfaw
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,253 ✭✭✭ouxbbkqtswdfaw


    When Christ returns, He comes as merciful Judge. Let them two words sink in. MERCIFUL and JUDGE. He is fully and completely merciful, if you show the least spark of repentence. He is a judge, because He cannot allow an unrepentant person to enter His Kingdom. After all, it would be most unfair to those people who did repent.


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    #6747
    Bogwoppit
    Registered Users Posts: 2,648 ✭✭✭Bogwoppit


    lw8ey69ntifmph wrote: »
    I told you that they never heard of Jesus Christ. Therefore they are not guilty. In the case you mention, you will be held responsible for not teaching your children about Him.

    It would be very altruistic for us all to sacrifice ourselves to hell by not teaching children about JC. They’d all be innocent and all future generations likewise.
    Being so altruistic may even be enough to get us to heaven too!


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    #6748
    Safehands
    Registered Users Posts: 1,360 ✭✭✭Safehands


    lw8ey69ntifmph wrote: »
    When Christ returns, He comes as merciful Judge. Let them two words sink in. He is fully and completely merciful, if you show the least spark of repentence. He is a judge, because He cannot allow an unrepentant person to enter His Kingdom. After all, it would be most unfair to those people who did repent.

    So do we agree then, he is not actually infinitely merciful. He is conditionally mercifull, agreed?


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    #6749
    ouxbbkqtswdfaw
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,253 ✭✭✭ouxbbkqtswdfaw


    Safehands wrote:
    So do we agree then, he is not actually infinitely merciful. He is conditionally mercifull, agreed?


    No. Like any judge, He weighs up the pros and cons, and comes to a correct decision. He can do no else. If you die unrepentant, you do not enter His Kingdom. After all, you have decided you want nothing to do with Him. You cannot get in. It is too late after death, when you realise the position. Your chance is now, in this life.


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    #6750
    Bogwoppit
    Registered Users Posts: 2,648 ✭✭✭Bogwoppit


    lw8ey69ntifmph wrote: »
    No. Like any judge, He weighs up the pros and cons, and comes to a correct decision. He can do no else. If you die unrepentant, you do not enter His Kingdom. After all, you have decided you want nothing to do with Him. You cannot get in. It is too late after death, when you realise the position. Your chance is now, in this life.

    So he is infinitely merciful, under certain conditions.


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    #6751
    Safehands
    Registered Users Posts: 1,360 ✭✭✭Safehands


    lw8ey69ntifmph wrote: »
    No. Like any judge, He weighs up the pros and cons, and comes to a correct decision. He can do no else. If you die unrepentant, you do not enter His Kingdom. After all, you have decided you want nothing to do with Him. You cannot get in. It is too late after death, when you realise the position. Your chance is now, in this life.

    Ok, fair enough. So don't be using terms like "infinitely merciful" because, according to the facts you have outlined, he is absolutely not.
    See, this is a problem for me Oweny, guys like you keep using terms which are completely and obviously untrue.


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