Are We Spanish or at least cousins

Duke Leonal Felmet

fontanalis wrote: »

Duke Leonal Felmet wrote: »

Spanish people have dark hair and skin because of the invasion of the Moors. This occured long after the supposed migration of people from the Iberian peninsula. We are talking many thousands of years difference here. So I'm not sure what the dark skin and hair is supposed to point to, perhaps a 17th century Spaniard banged a woman in Galway and passed on his Moorish roots. But Spanish people from the North tend to be paler skinned than the Moorish south, even produce gingers.

Didn't the Goths (not the ones who hang around in front of the central bank) invade Spain at one point aswell?
Spain is a very regional country anyway.

I wouldn't know without checking, those early invaders of Roman Europe had many different names, my favourite being 'The Vandals'. But the Moorish influence is very clear to see among many Spaniards. Stick some Middle Eastern costume on them and you wouldn't know the difference. The Moors were there for centuries, so it's hardly surprising.

HavingCrack

Duke Leonal Felmet wrote: »

Spanish people have dark hair and skin because of the invasion of the Moors. This occured long after the supposed migration of people from the Iberian peninsula. We are talking many thousands of years difference here. So I'm not sure what the dark skin and hair is supposed to point to, perhaps a 17th century Spaniard banged a woman in Galway and passed on his Moorish roots. But Spanish people from the North tend to be paler skinned than the Moorish south, even produce gingers.

Actually, the Moors don't have as big an impact on Spanish genetics as you might think, only around 4% of modern Spanish people are desecended from them.

gerardk55

I have a book at home on this subject. It's called The Atlantean Irish by Bob Quinn and his argument is that Ireland was a major of sea transport between Norway, France, Iberia and North Africa. Made some solid arguments in it. There's a site like Newgrange in Morocco seemingly. That and Seanos singing and a few more things like common words across old irish and spainish etc. Good read.

fontanalis

Bannasidhe wrote: »

Sure I'm Cork born, bred and reared and I have dark hair, hazel/brown eyes and sallow skin as do both of my parents and 3 of my grandparents.
Mind...my sister has blonde hair and blue eyes and my brother has reddish brown hair and brown eyes....

Well Cork played a big role in mining during the bronze age (Mount Gabriel I think) so there was supposed to be a lot of interaction with the mediterannean with that. Something similar in North Wales.
http://dienekes.blogspot.com/2011/07/eastern-mediterranean-marker-in.html

fontanalis

gerardk55 wrote: »

I have a book at home on this subject. It's called The Atlantean Irish by Bob Quinn and his argument is that Ireland was a major of sea transport between Norway, France, Iberia and North Africa. Made some solid arguments in it. There's a site like Newgrange in Morocco seemingly. That and Seanos singing and a few more things like common words across old irish and spainish etc. Good read.

Yeah, Ireland was supposed to be very important during the bronze age. But I think he screws the pooch by claiming the language also descends from the area.

Weylin

lots of connemara people resemble the spanish,black hair,sallow skin,brown eyes,might be a link somewhere........

Duke Leonal Felmet

HavingCrack wrote: »

Duke Leonal Felmet wrote: »

Spanish people have dark hair and skin because of the invasion of the Moors. This occured long after the supposed migration of people from the Iberian peninsula. We are talking many thousands of years difference here. So I'm not sure what the dark skin and hair is supposed to point to, perhaps a 17th century Spaniard banged a woman in Galway and passed on his Moorish roots. But Spanish people from the North tend to be paler skinned than the Moorish south, even produce gingers.

Actually, the Moors don't have as big an impact on Spanish genetics as you might think, only around 4% of modern Spanish people are desecended from them.

Ok, I'll just take your word for it on that fact.

Bannasidhe

fontanalis wrote: »

Yeah, Ireland was supposed to be very important during the bronze age. But I think he screws the pooch by claiming the language also descends from the area.

Copper from Kerry - if I recall correctly it had a high arsenic (?) content which made it stronger then usual. It's been found across Europe so it was a high value trading item.

orourkeda

Are we human or are we dancers?

Bannasidhe

orourkeda wrote: »

Are we human or are we dancers?

Close observation at the average nightclub would suggest neither...

dubhthach

More like we have a connection with the French. Most Irishmen belong to haplogroup of R1b called L21. this is believed to have arisen in North-Eastern France/Southern Germany about 3500-3900 years ago.

Of course Y-Chromosomes only take about 2% of a man genome. If you look across the entire genome unsurprising we cluster next to the British and then the French.

Here's a clustering map of european populations:
http://compsoc.nuigalway.ie/~dubhthach/euro-clustering.jpg

Here's a map of L21 spread in Western Europe:
http://compsoc.nuigalway.ie/~dubhthach/Haplogroup-R1b-L21.gif

L21 makes up about 5-10% of male population in Northern Spain. however most Basque men belong to a different branch of R1b. Mostly Z196 (specifically M153), here's a tree showing current know breakdown of R1b in Europe.
http://compsoc.nuigalway.ie/~dubhthach/R1b-deepClade.png

Basque men who are M153+ and Irishmen who are L21+ probably last shared a common male ancestor about 4k years ago.

kylith

fontanalis wrote: »

Yeah, Ireland was supposed to be very important during the bronze age. But I think he screws the pooch by claiming the language also descends from the area.

I dunno, there are some strange similarities. Mullinavat in Waterford is (excuse the atrocious spelling in my Irish and French) Muilleann na Bata in Irish or Moulin des Bateaux in French (both mean Mill of the Sticks).

Bannasidhe

kylith wrote: »

I dunno, there are some strange similarities. Mullinavat in Waterford is (excuse the atrocious spelling in my Irish and French) Muilleann na Bata in Irish or Moulin des Bateaux in French (both mean Mill of the Sticks).

Some of that could be explained by the influence of Norman French.

HavingCrack

kylith wrote: »

I dunno, there are some strange similarities. Mullinavat in Waterford is (excuse the atrocious spelling in my Irish and French) Muilleann na Bata in Irish or Moulin des Bateaux in French (both mean Mill of the Sticks).

The language of Irish/Gaelic is far closer to French than it is to English. Just count up to 10 in both languages and you'll notice the similarities. Also garsun vs garcon etc. However I doubt that it is down to genetics, probably more to do with the Celtic language grouping being closer to Latin than to the Germanic languages.

Bannasidhe

HavingCrack wrote: »

The language of Irish/Gaelic is far closer to French than it is to English. Just count up to 10 in both languages and you'll notice the similarities. Also garsun vs garcon etc. However I doubt that it is down to genetics, probably more to do with the Celtic language grouping being closer to Latin than to the Germanic languages.

Or it could be the French speaking Normans who invaded in the 12th century! :rolleyes:

Even The 1366 Statutes of Kilkenny which wanted the descendants of the Normans to be 'English' were written in Norman French.

HavingCrack

Bannasidhe wrote: »

Or it could be the French speaking Normans who invaded in the 12th century! :rolleyes:

Even The 1366 Statutes of Kilkenny which wanted the descendants of the Normans to be 'English' were written in Norman French.

Ah here, look there's no need to be sarcastic. Old Irish was spoke before the Norman invasion and still bares a lot of similiarities to French and Latin. There's no doubt the Normans were the primary source of the similarites between the languages but it does appear to have been influenced prior to their arrival.

dubhthach

Garsun is a borrowing from French into Irish. However with regards to language families it is true that Italic and Celtic are closer to each other then to Germanic. If anything alot of linguists consider that there was a common Italic-Celtic language that subsquently broke into constuitent Celtic and Italic components. However you are probably looking at a seperation over 3,500 years ago.

Interesting enough U152 (s28) which is a brother clade of L21 has quite high levels in Northern Italy as well as seeming to be potentially linked to La Tène material culture

Here's a map of it in a European context.
http://compsoc.nuigalway.ie/~dubhthach/Haplogroup-R1b-S28.gif

IzzyWizzy

It wouldn't surprise me. I know a lot of people, mostly from the North and West of Ireland, who look really Spanish. I was one of several people in my year at school (in the North) with tanned skin, brown eyes and brown hair. I very rarely got asked where I was from until I moved to Dublin for college and every other person asked me if I was Indian or something. I find that most Dubliners are really pale with freckles and light eyes, but olive skin and dark colouring aren't uncommon in other parts of the country.

fontanalis

IzzyWizzy wrote: »

It wouldn't surprise me. I know a lot of people, mostly from the North and West of Ireland, who look really Spanish. I was one of several people in my year at school (in the North) with tanned skin, brown eyes and brown hair. I very rarely got asked where I was from until I moved to Dublin for college and every other person asked me if I was Indian or something. I find that most Dubliners are really pale with freckles and light eyes, but olive skin and dark colouring aren't uncommon in other parts of the country.

The early DNA studies mentioned only look at direct male line ancestry and they have no correllation with physical appearance.
The stereo type of Irish people is red hair but it's only found at levels like 20% in Ireland. I think it's found at higher levels in Scotland, parts of North England and Denmark.
http://www.buildinghistory.org/distantpast/looks.shtml
I think one of the fascinations with dark features is that it goes against the stero type.
Blue eyes are supposed to have been the result of a mutation around 6,000 years ago and is more associated with Northern Europe. The brown eyes may be a "throwback" to real early ancestors who may have been more Southern European.

Dionysus

Gunnerkid wrote: »

The Irish – more Spanish than Celtic?
DECEMBER 29, 2006 · 56 COMMENTS
Scientists have concluded that the Celts did not invade Ireland en masse, nor did they replace an earlier group.

Despite the widely held belief that the Irish are descended from Celts who invaded Ireland about 2,500 years ago, a 2004 genetic research study at Trinity College, Dublin (TCD) appears to argue against it.

Presumably somebody in the thread has mentioned the historic definition of the Gaeil of Ireland as Milesian, that is descendants of the sons of King Mil Espáine of what is now northern Spain?

An old definition of 'Milesian' is 'Irish'.

Here, found this

saywhatyousee

My father,brother and sister all have jet black hair and brown eyes.I really notice when i go to different parts of Ireland how different looking people are in the area's.My sister works in London and nobody there could believe she was Irish

Catari Jaguar

Never heard of the Mac Cartaigh Spáinnigh of Cork, the Spanish Arches... This is news?

fontanalis

cherub rock wrote: »

Never heard of the Mac Cartaigh Spáinnigh of Cork, the Spanish Arches... This is news?

Apparently Spanish Arches is a misnomer.
http://www.galway.net/galwayguide/todo/sights/spanisharch/
What are the Mac Cartaigh Spainnigh?

Wibbs

It might not mean we're "Spanish" or "Basque", it could be simpler than that. "Original" Europeans spread throughout Europe, then subsequent mixing and migrations happen mixing it all up except in isolated populations on the fringes of Europe. Folks like the Basques and to a slightly lesser extent us avoid that and remain somewhat isolated genetically. The extinct Irish bear populations an example and mirror of that. They're not related to British bears as you might expect, but are related to northern Spanish bears. Now we may have brought some domestic animals with us on our travels, but hardly stuck bears in a curragh. The original euro bear lines survived in isolated pockets, while the mainland and main euro lines got mixed in.

I would say in my experience of hanging out in the Basque region a few times, we do match in temperament quite well(ditto with Galicians). Even more so than with the larger bunch of Spanish folks(who are a much better match for us IME than say the French or Germans or Italians). There's defo the shock of recognition going on. There seems to be a lot of similar character things shared. If you ever get the chance to hang out with Basques or Galicians you'll see what I mean. The dark sense of humour and irreverence, with an odd and madly and wonderfully illogical side order of reverence is one. The ability to talk shíte with authority another. That kinda yes/no, "t'is and t'isint" thing is common to both. And they subconsciously talk about the weather a lot too.

dubhthach

Wibbs wrote: »

It might not mean we're "Spanish" or "Basque", it could be simpler than that. "Original" Europeans spread throughout Europe, then subsequent mixing and migrations happen mixing it all up except in isolated populations on the fringes of Europe. Folks like the Basques and to a slightly lesser extent us avoid that and remain somewhat isolated genetically. The extinct Irish bear populations an example and mirror of that. They're not related to British bears as you might expect, but are related to northern Spanish bears. Now we may have brought some domestic animals with us on our travels, but hardly stuck bears in a curragh. The original euro bear lines survived in isolated pockets, while the mainland and main euro lines got mixed in.

I would say in my experience of hanging out in the Basque region a few times, we do match in temperament quite well(ditto with Galicians). Even more so than with the larger bunch of Spanish folks(who are a much better match for us IME than say the French or Germans or Italians). There's defo the shock of recognition going on. There seems to be a lot of similar character things shared. If you ever get the chance to hang out with Basques or Galicians you'll see what I mean. The dark sense of humour and irreverence, with an odd and madly and wonderfully illogical side order of reverence is one. The ability to talk shíte with authority another. That kinda yes/no, "t'is and t'isint" thing is common to both. And they subconsciously talk about the weather a lot too.

The bears might cluster together, unfortunately the people don't. We cluster closest to the British who unsurprising cluster between us and the French and Dutch.

See:
http://compsoc.nuigalway.ie/~dubhthach/euro-clustering.jpg

If you do a clustering diagram with Basque and Sardinian populations added in they quickly form "isolated islands" of their own. This points to limited genetic flow into both Basque and Sardinian populations. What interesting of course is that the Basques are mostly R1b when it comes to male lineages, this is the dominant male lineage across Western Europe. For example most Irish men are R1b. However we belong to a different clade of R1b then Basque men generally do. Some have theorised that R1b in Basques is due to genetic inflow from surrounding populations.

Needless to say the common parent clade (P312 -- above L21 (Irish) and Z196 (Iberia , Basques in subclade M153) probably originated in Central Europe about 4,000-4,500 years ago

I should point out R1b probably originated in Central Asia. From a European mesolithic point of view Haplogroup I is probably the best candidate. In Neolithic period we see alot of Haplogroup G showing up in ancient DNA. The Iceman (Ötzi) was recently confirmed to belong to Haplogroup G2a4 which is very thinly spread across Europe today.

Bannasidhe

HavingCrack wrote: »

Ah here, look there's no need to be sarcastic. Old Irish was spoke before the Norman invasion and still bares a lot of similiarities to French and Latin. There's no doubt the Normans were the primary source of the similarites between the languages but it does appear to have been influenced prior to their arrival.

I apologise for the sarcasm.:o

As for a Latin influence on old Irish - I think this is a tricky one as it depends on how we define 'old' Irish. As all of our written records begin after the introduction of Christianity c5th century and the scribes were all clerics that could account for a degree of Latinisation of the language. We have no idea how widespread this was among the secular population or if there was a Latin influence before the introduction of Christianity.

So all we can really say is after the 5th century the Irish language as transcribed by religious clerics shows the influence of Latin.

I am always wary of using linguistics as a major source of evidence for ancient history as if using that as the main criteria anyone looking at us in 1000 years would consider us the same 'race' as the English, Scots, Americans, Australians, Kiwis etc.

fontanalis

Wibbs wrote: »

It might not mean we're "Spanish" or "Basque", it could be simpler than that. "Original" Europeans spread throughout Europe, then subsequent mixing and migrations happen mixing it all up except in isolated populations on the fringes of Europe. Folks like the Basques and to a slightly lesser extent us avoid that and remain somewhat isolated genetically. The extinct Irish bear populations an example and mirror of that. They're not related to British bears as you might expect, but are related to northern Spanish bears. Now we may have brought some domestic animals with us on our travels, but hardly stuck bears in a curragh. The original euro bear lines survived in isolated pockets, while the mainland and main euro lines got mixed in.

I would say in my experience of hanging out in the Basque region a few times, we do match in temperament quite well(ditto with Galicians). Even more so than with the larger bunch of Spanish folks(who are a much better match for us IME than say the French or Germans or Italians). There's defo the shock of recognition going on. There seems to be a lot of similar character things shared. If you ever get the chance to hang out with Basques or Galicians you'll see what I mean. The dark sense of humour and irreverence, with an odd and madly and wonderfully illogical side order of reverence is one. The ability to talk shíte with authority another. That kinda yes/no, "t'is and t'isint" thing is common to both. And they subconsciously talk about the weather a lot too.

It must be a nice area; san Sebastian and Pamplona are int he Basque Region aren't they and some of Gallicia goes into Portugal?

keryl

I'm R1a and not the type found in Poland genes or the one associated with the English R1a. Don't think they have pinpointed where it came from but my family has been in Ireland for centuries so it doesn't surprise me that claims of the Irish being close to Basques is silly. Ireland is very similar to Britain with the obvious higher frequencies of Danes and Angles/Saxons and Jutes being found in Eastern Britain.

That RTÉ documentary about Blood of the Irish was embarrassing considering they didn't really elaborate on the findings.

KKkitty

My ancestors came from the Spanish/Portuegese border. I have dark brown hair and brown eyes. I also tan well in the sun. I'm born and reared in Ireland too so I'd well believe that my ancestors were not the only ones to come from that region to the Irish shores.