STOVES questions and answers here(see mod note in post 1)

Sanchez83

If a stove does not have "Respective heat ratings" then it cannot have CE certification! A CE cert for a stove requires a declaration of performance including heat ratings.

arbf1

Any opinions on the Henley Druid please and thanks?

arbf1

Anyone heard of the Hamco Glenregan...plumber recommended it today. 13kw to water 6kw to room...also how much roughly should it cost to knock out fireplace and plumb stove. I have some issues with pipework to pump plumber said but could allow little extra for that if I knew ballpark...just afraid of being ripped off. If anyone can recommend someone to quote the job (south east) pls do by pm.

vwt

Have been reading a lot of threads on here in relation to stove types and sizing.A lot of people seem to be sizing stoves with online calculators etc......not realising that that you will need to run your stove at maximin output to achieve these values.I would advise to go for at least 1.5 your calculated value.Ive recently had a stove installed as have some of my friends/family.What we found was that the stoves that were oversized performed much better.As regards type of stove,casette type seems much more popular and I personally like the finish as well as the efficiency.We opted for an 11kw casette stove.Using online calculators our room would probably need around 6kw.Luckily we had some advise from an experienced installer who advised us to oversize so we could achieve good heat at half
capacity.Keep this in mind if your are installing a stove.
http://s46.photobucket.com/user/goshea1/library/Mobile Uploads?sort=3&page=1

Markcheese

vwt wrote: »

Have been reading a lot of threads on here in relation to stove types and sizing.A lot of people seem to be sizing stoves with online calculators etc......not realising that that you will need to run your stove at maximin output to achieve these values.I would advise to go for at least 1.5 your calculated value.Ive recently had a stove installed as have some of my friends/family.What we found was that the stoves that were oversized performed much better.As regards type of stove,casette type seems much more popular and I personally like the finish as well as the efficiency.We opted for an 11kw casette stove.Using online calculators our room would probably need around 6kw.Luckily we had some advise from an experienced installer who advised us to oversize so we could achieve good heat at half
capacity.Keep this in mind if your are installing a stove.
http://s46.photobucket.com/user/goshea1/library/Mobile%20Uploads?sort=3&page=1

Doesn't the output depend on the fuel you use as well. Good coal- crap coal - dry hardwood - turf -
I think turf is about half the heat value of coal -

vwt

Markcheese wrote: »

Doesn't the output depend on the fuel you use as well. Good coal- crap coal - dry hardwood - turf -
I think turf is about half the heat value of coal -

Yes the quality/type of fuel will have a massive impact on the efficiency/longevity of your stove/flue.We found kiln dried hardwood to be the best.When we use this there is zero smoke output from our flue and massive heat.Poor quality fuel will also impact your flue liner/chimney resulting in more sweeps.

Sanchez83

VWT-
Your statement makes no logical sense.
Heat output= Fuel amount x Calfaric value x Stove efficency.
Of course a bigger rated stove will give more heat as it has a bigger fuel box to load fuel.Loading a bigger stove with the same amount of fuel as a smaller one will not give any extra heat.
The whole point of a stove is to save money on fuel and increase heat output.
Therefore you are best looking at stove that meets your needs as closely as possible but the heat output needs to be nominal rated and with a high certified efficency.
I would however agree that online calculators can be deceiving and a knowledgable stove retailer would know best.They need to know about number of windows,insulation level,shape of room,position of stove etc.
To summarise,do not oversize your stove,get good advice on size needed from an expert,buy a high efficency stove that is nominally rated.

vwt

Sanchez83 wrote: »

VWT-
Your statement makes no logical sense.
Heat output= Fuel amount x Calfaric value x Stove efficency.
Of course a bigger rated stove will give more heat as it has a bigger fuel box to load fuel.Loading a bigger stove with the same amount of fuel as a smaller one will not give any extra heat.
The whole point of a stove is to save money on fuel and increase heat output.
Therefore you are best looking at stove that meets your needs as closely as possible but the heat output needs to be nominal rated and with a high certified efficency.
I would however agree that online calculators can be deceiving and a knowledgable stove retailer would know best.They need to know about number of windows,insulation level,shape of room,position of stove etc.
To summarise,do not oversize your stove,get good advice on size needed from an expert,buy a high efficency stove that is nominally rated.

Sanchez my statement makes perfect sense,you either misread what I said or misinterpreted what I meant.For example if you buy a 6kw stove - to achieve 6kw you will need to have it running at maximum output and fully loaded.If you buy a 9kw stove you can achieve 6kw of heat at less than full capacity and also in most cases get a bigger viewing window with the bigger stove.
So explain to me what exactly makes no logical sense about this?

Wearb

Does the stove efficiency drop off as you move away from near maximum capacity?

Sanchez83

Nope,I read it correctly.
6kw of heat will require the same amount of fuel in the big stove as it will in the small stove.
Efficency is the only thing that would make one stove require less fuel than the other for the same heat output.
Stove size only allows you to put more fuel in to get more heat if you require more than 6kw.
Again to repeat the fact,not my opinion btw-
Heat Output= fuel amount x calfaric value x Stove efficency.
Stove size only changes the amount of the variables,it doesn't form part of the equation.

Sanchez83

Wearb wrote: »

Does the stove efficiency drop off as you move away from near maximum capacity?

Interesting question.
A stove efficiency will be tested at the required amount of fuel per kg it takes to meet its nominal heat output.
I don't know the answer to this actually.
I would imagine the efficiency is less,as like a car it will use more fuel to get the appliance upto an operating temperature before it will give out room heat.Therefore a bigger stove would take longer to get going meaning the efficiency would be lower again.
Anybody else know the answer to this?

vwt

Sanchez83 wrote: »

Nope,I read it correctly.
6kw of heat will require the same amount of fuel in the big stove as it will in the small stove.
Efficency is the only thing that would make one stove require less fuel than the other for the same heat output.
Stove size only allows you to put more fuel in to get more heat if you require more than 6kw.
Again to repeat the fact,not my opinion btw-
Heat Output= fuel amount x calfaric value x Stove efficency.
Stove size only changes the amount of the variables,it doesn't form part of the equation.

I'm not getting into an argument here....but did you not just back up my statement..if 6kw of Heat requires the same amount of fuel in each stove does that not denote that the smaller stove would require it to be full and the larger stove not to be!
Anyway I'm offering my opinions based on my stove and around 20 friends and family of mine.A few of those opted for smaller stoves based on online calculators and so called 'expert' advice and were sorely disappointed with the heat output.And one final point-I sought the advice of three independent hetas qualified installers and had my installation done by one.I think perhaps he posts on here.

vwt

Wearb wrote: »

Does the stove efficiency drop off as you move away from near maximum capacity?

From all the stoves I looked at it seemed to me that the smaller stoves were slightly more efficient than larger ones.There is many variables here to consider such as the quality of the installation,fuel,air supply,flue condition etc.You would have to imagine that the stove operates more efficiently at full capacity.Again though I don't know for sure,I'm sure somebody will have the answer.

Wearb

Sanchez83 wrote: »

Interesting question.
A stove efficiency will be tested at the required amount of fuel per kg it takes to meet its nominal heat output.
I don't know the answer to this actually.
I would imagine the efficiency is less,as like a car it will use more fuel to get the appliance upto an operating temperature before it will give out room heat.Therefore a bigger stove would take longer to get going meaning the efficiency would be lower again.
Anybody else know the answer to this?

My GUESS is that running it at less than capacity would reduce efficiency because the flue would have been sized for maximum capacity.

I too would like to see data on this.

In relation to question/statement above; using say a 10kw stove at half capacity to achieve a 5kw output. Would the amount of fuel needed be half that needed to run it at 10kw - ignoring the initial heat up.
I would think that more than half would be needed, but would like to know for sure.

Sanchez83

vwt wrote: »

I'm not getting into an argument here....but did you not just back up my statement..if 6kw of Heat requires the same amount of fuel in each stove does that not denote that the smaller stove would require it to be full and the larger stove not to be!
Anyway I'm offering my opinions based on my stove and around 20 friends and family of mine.A few of those opted for smaller stoves based on online calculators and so called 'expert' advice and were sorely disappointed with the heat output.And one final point-I sought the advice of three independent hetas qualified installers and had my installation done by one.I think perhaps he posts on here.

I have a Hetas qualification.
Yes the smaller stove would need to be full but it's the same amount of fuel! This is the point you seem to be missing.
I'm not arguing about the smaller stove being full.

My point is this-
Heat output= fuel amount x calfaric value x stove efficiency
So if you require 6kw-
6kw= Fuel amount same both stoves x calfaric value same both stoves x stove efficiency(assuming same in both)(Normally less in bigger stove actually)
The size of the stove only comes into play if you require more than 6kw of heat.

Manufacturers build stoves to operate at the stated heat outputs.
They do not design a 11kw stove to operate as a 6kw stove.

It's great that you are happy with your 11kw stove but I'd be 100% sure you are using more fuel than you would if it was a 6kw stove.That's your choice and it's a safe choice.But it's not the best possible choice IMO.
My advice is to help people to get the heat they need at the most economical price.

Sanchez83

vwt wrote: »

From all the stoves I looked at it seemed to me that the smaller stoves were slightly more efficient than larger ones.There is many variables here to consider such as the quality of the installation,fuel,air supply,flue condition etc.You would have to imagine that the stove operates more efficiently at full capacity.Again though I don't know for sure,I'm sure somebody will have the answer.

You are backing up my point here.
If your bigger 11kw stove operates at a lower efficiency because it's not full then the 6kw stove full must be more fuel efficient.

vwt

Sanchez83 wrote: »

You are backing up my point here.
If your bigger 11kw stove operates at a lower efficiency because it's not full then the 6kw stove full must be more fuel efficient.

I think its fact that all of the smaller stoves are more efficient than the larger ones.I think we are talking about differnet things here.Anyway i think the look of the stove is very important also...ie large glass door for viewing effect of flames etc needs to be considered....Also i think the extra fuel we would use with the larger stove would be minimal...even when we operate at half capacity.Different strokes and all that...im just offering my opinion from MY experience.Stoves are a quite a large investment and ive seen more than friend unhappy with the outcome.

Sanchez83

Wearb wrote: »

My GUESS is that running it at less than capacity would reduce efficiency because the flue would have been sized for maximum capacity.

I too would like to see data on this.

In relation to question/statement above; using say a 10kw stove at half capacity to achieve a 5kw output. Would the amount of fuel needed be half that needed to run it at 10kw - ignoring the initial heat up.
I would think that more than half would be needed, but would like to know for sure.

I would tend to agree.
Will do some research.

vwt

Sanchez83 wrote: »

You are backing up my point here.
If your bigger 11kw stove operates at a lower efficiency because it's not full then the 6kw stove full must be more fuel efficient.

I think its fact that all of the smaller stoves are more efficient than the larger ones.I think we are talking about differnet things here.Anyway i think the look of the stove is very important also...ie large glass door for viewing effect of flames etc needs to be considered....Also i think the extra fuel we would use with the larger stove would be minimal...even when we operate at half capacity.Different strokes and all that...im just offering my opinion from MY experience.Stoves are a quite a large investment and ive seen more than friend unhappy with the outcome.

vwt

Sanchez83 wrote: »

Hi Mollybelle,
I would suggest that you should always over estimate the heat output you require so the Boru 600i seems fine.That 10kw is a maximum heat output as far as I'm aware so will be closer to 8kw nominal.
If it seems too hot just reduce them air intake and fuel levels.

Sanchez seems like with all your expertise you are giving conflicting advice.
Did you not just yesterday say you should NOT oversize your stove??
:rolleyes:

Sanchez83

Ok then.....
Trolling back to posts 18 months ago.You had to go 170 posts to find something to pick at.
Ok, my advise there wasn't the best.However lady needed a 6-8kw stove based on online calculator which I have stated I wouldn't trust.Also that 600i is 10kw max and 8kw nominal.As you have seen I advise all nominal heat outputs so therefore the stove was the correct size and not oversized.But I could have advised better.But I suppose I have picked up a lot of knowledge in the last 18 months.
Anyway just move on,people will read our opinions and choose for themselves.

MOD: We'll leave it there now, thank you.

angeldaisy

I've been looking round at inset stoves, these are the ones I have been recommended;

Riva 55 : Boru 400i : Faro 600i

Would these be the best ones?

How much should I expect to pay to get it fitted, one quote came in around 900 for fittings and labour. Does that seem reasonable? The chimney is quite tall, we need 6mtrs of lining.

ballyharpat

angeldaisy wrote: »

I've been looking round at inset stoves, these are the ones I have been recommended;

Riva 55 : Boru 400i : Faro 600i

Would these be the best ones?

How much should I expect to pay to get it fitted, one quote came in around 900 for fittings and labour. Does that seem reasonable? The chimney is quite tall, we need 6mtrs of lining.

I installed a firebird 16" insert, it is superb, it has the back boiler, heats up real fast and burns efficient, If it is a dry stove, that definitely seems high to me, there is only half a days work in it, unless you are knocking the fireplace? the fittings are just the flue and metafill, should be no more than
200, installation, maybe 300 tops?

virgo69

angeldaisy wrote: »

I've been looking round at inset stoves, these are the ones I have been recommended;

Riva 55 : Boru 400i : Faro 600i

Would these be the best ones?

How much should I expect to pay to get it fitted, one quote came in around 900 for fittings and labour. Does that seem reasonable? The chimney is quite tall, we need 6mtrs of lining.

I paid around the same for a heat design insert stove, no back boiler and no lining of the chimney, it did include chimney clean though. I would imagine the Riva is probably superior the the heat design though?

arbf1

Hi I was in a stoveshop today. Saw the Henley druid 21. It's a massive size......it's 1099 euro. got quotes of 400 euro to cut out fireplace by builder and 250 euro to plumb by plumber (I will be supplying cement, lentil, tiles, etc...but haven't priced these yet) The stovedealer said flue into existing chimney is 80 euro but a flexiflueliner kit (is 9metre standard?) vermiculite and flue pipe is 420 euro...which is the recommended method?

I'm still unsure id the druid 21 meets my requirements. I have 5 double rads and 3 old single rads currently (these 3 may need to be updated later).

Here's the measurements in feet if anyone can help. The room I'm putting stove in is a sitting room (16x13) with standard single rad. I have a kitchen (10x8) off this using double door with a standard double rad in here. There is also single door to hall with high ceiling off this. There is a small double rad out here. I would leave these doors open if heat was too much in room with stove. Off the hall is the bathroom (5x6) there is a small double rad in here and it is the best heated room in house due to it's size when oil is on. I have two bedrooms off the hall (16x14) and (15x17) both these rooms have an old standard size single rad. In the attic conversion are 2 further bedrooms (10x12) with a small double rad in both. The hot water cylinder is standard and is lagged. The plumber did look at rads and cylinder but didn't measure them...he did however measure the area of the house (33x26) which as you can tell from measurement is modest enough...it's really a 2 bed cottage. the 25kwDruid is 200 euro more and I'm conscious that its bigger again and can heat a house much bigger than mine.......PLEASE PLEASE give me your opinions. Now that I've got quotes I want to push on ahead but don't want to make any poor decisions either.

angeldaisy

ballyharpat wrote: »

I installed a firebird 16" insert, it is superb, it has the back boiler, heats up real fast and burns efficient, If it is a dry stove, that definitely seems high to me, there is only half a days work in it, unless you are knocking the fireplace? the fittings are just the flue and metafill, should be no more than
200, installation, maybe 300 tops?

Thanks, I think I'll phone around a couple of people to quote for fitting.

vwt

I got a few quotes before I went ahead
My breakdown was
Lining chimney,including fittings,cowl,vermiculite etc -450
Labour - 300
Stove - 1000
Granite hearth plus surround for stove -150
Labour quotes can vary a lot depending on your fireplace.Mine had to be increased in size to accommodate the stove.Two guys were there for around 6 hours I think.I was left to plaster around the stove.Every company who priced my job all advised that the chimney should be lined regardless of condition.This would improve the efficiency of the stove and was best practice so I went ahead and got it done.Hope this helps.

charlie_says

Just wanted to tell all the helpful folks here that I got my Stratford EB16i insert working just the way I like it now. It heats the house great and the room fine.

My mistakes in the past were, not loading it enough (it really needs to be fully loaded once it's gotten nice and hot) and I also had a pipe thermostat connected to my pump so it only pumps water in and out at the required temperature.

It's a great stove, it's more boiler than anything else but it can pump out great heat to the room when you load it up and use the controls correctly.

Sanchez83

arbf1 wrote: »

Hi I was in a stoveshop today. Saw the Henley druid 21. It's a massive size......it's 1099 euro. got quotes of 400 euro to cut out fireplace by builder and 250 euro to plumb by plumber (I will be supplying cement, lentil, tiles, etc...but haven't priced these yet) The stovedealer said flue into existing chimney is 80 euro but a flexiflueliner kit (is 9metre standard?) vermiculite and flue pipe is 420 euro...which is the recommended method?

I'm still unsure id the druid 21 meets my requirements. I have 5 double rads and 3 old single rads currently (these 3 may need to be updated later).

Here's the measurements in feet if anyone can help. The room I'm putting stove in is a sitting room (16x13) with standard single rad. I have a kitchen (10x8) off this using double door with a standard double rad in here. There is also single door to hall with high ceiling off this. There is a small double rad out here. I would leave these doors open if heat was too much in room with stove. Off the hall is the bathroom (5x6) there is a small double rad in here and it is the best heated room in house due to it's size when oil is on. I have two bedrooms off the hall (16x14) and (15x17) both these rooms have an old standard size single rad. In the attic conversion are 2 further bedrooms (10x12) with a small double rad in both. The hot water cylinder is standard and is lagged. The plumber did look at rads and cylinder but didn't measure them...he did however measure the area of the house (33x26) which as you can tell from measurement is modest enough...it's really a 2 bed cottage. the 25kwDruid is 200 euro more and I'm conscious that its bigger again and can heat a house much bigger than mine.......PLEASE PLEASE give me your opinions. Now that I've got quotes I want to push on ahead but don't want to make any poor decisions either.

Your plumber really should have measured your rads and given you a BTU requirement.Without measurements it's hard to be sure.
I would estimate you need 14.6kw to the water and 4kw to room but that's a rough estimate.Only a plumber can tell you 100%.
A 21kw stove should suffice.