The "Che phenomenon"

cookies221

Kevin Duffy wrote: »

Hypocritical much?

I asked him his age. Hardly a personal attack or insult.

strobe

cookies221 wrote: »

Palestinians are being oppressed in your opinion. The fact is that Palestinians enjoy a higher standard of living in modern Israeli cities than they do in the self-governed Gaza strip. It's in their best interests to live under Israeli rule where women have rights, democracy rules and they can enjoy the fruits of a successful developed nation.

Even if ignorant westerners do want to display their empathy with an internal Middle Eastern conflict, they can do so in better taste. Wearing clichéd childish scarves and tshirts while blocking traffic in the city centre with their march isn't going to win them many supporters.

Lol, who are you even addressing that post to you irrepressible rapscallion?

Kevin Duffy

cookies221 wrote: »

I asked him his age. Hardly a personal attack or insult.

It was an attempt to undermine his opinion by bringing up his age. Maybe check the definition of ad hominem there yourself, as you're inclined to say to others.

k.p.h

strobe wrote: »

irrepressible rapscallion?

What dose that mean.. some type of swear word or something.. I hope so..:p

Cynical Apathy

Che Guevara is regarded as a hero all across South America. The US had terrible policies toward that region at the time.

The IRA's "reign of terror" at the least achieved equality for Catholics in Northern Ireland who were severely oppressed beforehand. The sight of people being brutally burned out of their homes on Reeling in the Years in the early 60s was shocking.

Dionysus

cookies221 wrote: »

Even if ignorant westerners do want to display their empathy with an internal Middle Eastern conflict, they can do so in better taste.

Indeed. Supporting, for instance, British soldiers torturing and beating an Iraqi civilian to death is precisely one of those "better taste" objects of support in the Middle East.

Nodin

cookies221 wrote: »

Palestinians are being oppressed in your opinion. The fact is that Palestinians enjoy a higher standard of living in modern Israeli cities than they do in the self-governed Gaza strip. It's in their best interests to live under Israeli rule where women have rights, democracy rules and they can enjoy the fruits of a successful developed nation..

The question was a general one, however....

Essentially your showing a classic paternalistic attitude while also ignoring the colonisation of the West Bank and Arab East Jerusalem and the conditions therein, the principle of self determination and of course discrimination within Israel itself.

You also don't seem too aware that none of the major parties in Israel will assimilate West Bank Palestinians into Israel proper as full citizens

cookies221 wrote: »

Even if ignorant westerners do want to display their empathy with an internal Middle Eastern conflict, they can do so in better taste. Wearing clichéd childish scarves and tshirts while blocking traffic in the city centre with their march isn't going to win them many supporters.

And the arbiter of what constitutes taste is who, exactly?

Kidchameleon

I was talking to a guy onetime with a Che Guevara tattoo on his arm. Funny thing is, he didn't actually know who Che Guevara was!

cookies221

Nodin wrote: »

And the arbiter of what constitutes taste is who, exactly?

There is no accounting for taste. For example, some people may think Jewish jokes about being stingy with money or big noses are acceptable, I'd regard them as bad taste. White people in the west who live comfortable middle class lives pretending they "feel" the pain of the Palestinian plight is also bad taste in my opinion.

Of course, people are allowed to make Jewish jokes or protest, but they go down in my estimations as human beings as a result.

Nodin

cookies221 wrote: »

There is no accounting for taste. For example, some people may think Jewish jokes about being stingy with money or big noses are acceptable, I'd regard them as bad taste. White people in the west who live comfortable middle class lives pretending they "feel" the pain of the Palestinian plight is also bad taste in my opinion.

.

You're comparing anti-semitism with empathy? Wonderful.

Do you take the same attitude towards those who donate to famine victims?

Why do you keep speaking about "middle class" "White people"?

The Saint

cookies221 wrote: »

White people in the west who live comfortable middle class lives pretending they "feel" the pain of the Palestinian plight is also bad taste in my opinion.

What about white people in the west who live comfortable middle class lives pretending they "feel" the pain of the Israeli's plight?

The main thrust of your argument seems to be that if someone takes an alternative opinion that you do then it is for nefarious, ideological, immature and ignorant reasoning. However, having seen your many posts on international affairs I can only conclude that you have a tenuous grasp of reality when it comes to such topics or that you are a troll. Given that I find it very difficult to believe that someone can hold extremely hypocritical positions and keep up the veneer of credibility, I'm likely to come down on the side of the later.

minidazzler

cookies221 wrote: »

Che was a murderer and terrorist, btw. Kids may as well be running around wearing tshirts with Bin Laden or Saddam Hussein on the front. Violence is NEVER the answer. Did Gandhi need violence to win independence for India? Did Martin Luther King need violence to win civil rights for negros? What did the IRA's campaign of terror achieve, besides dragging this country back on to the Neanderthal age?

Sorry now, but sometimes violence is exactly the answer.

Let's look at the IRA between 1916 and 1921, plenty of murders there which got us to the table. I'm not condoning the killings, but it got sh1t done.

Sometimes, the only way a government will truly listen to it's people is when it's people have a boot on the neck of the government.

I'm not saying it's always the answer, but sometimes it is exactly what you need and nothing else will get your message across.

Billy86

cookies221 wrote: »

Che was a murderer and terrorist, btw. Kids may as well be running around wearing tshirts with Bin Laden or Saddam Hussein on the front. Violence is NEVER the answer. Did Gandhi need violence to win independence for India? Did Martin Luther King need violence to win civil rights for negros? What did the IRA's campaign of terror achieve, besides dragging this country back on to the Neanderthal age?

If you think MLK and pacifism was the sole force in the civil rights movement, well... says it all really.

cookies221 wrote: »

Difference between self defence (Israelis) and violent agression (Arabs)

True, I often find myself in a position on neutral, international waters where self-defense is the only option and can only be achieved by boarding other boats nearby. There be pirates about aarrrrgghhh, don't you know?

Seriously, you're just as bad if not worse than those you are bleating on about.

cookies221 wrote: »

2. Politics isn't like supporting a football team. There are no "sides" and nobody is "winning". That's what I mean by an immature grasp of world affiars. Every Israeli death is like a score in the back of the net for "your side." When you decide to come up out of your trench, maybe we can engage in peaceful and mature discourse about Arab-Israeli relations.

As best I can see, you are one of the only ones (if not -the- only one) endorsing violence in this thread. All in the name of 'self defense' of course. You are also the only one talking about 'sides' here, also.

You come over as a deeply, deeply confused person who by the sounds of things, should be sent straight back to the puzzle factory.

Sprouts

AdamD wrote: »

You managed to fit an impressive amount of over-generalisations into 14 lines. Well done

Cant believe anyone would actually read that then count the lines and then post on it with their thoughts, well done.

Pdfile

cookies221 wrote: »

Teenagers like to rebel or to reject the status quo. It gives them a sense of power and independence to hold opposing views to their parents. They often adopt (what they perceive as) radical left wing views and wear PLO scarves or Che Guevara tshirts to pronounce their political ideology to the world, without really having a clue of the issues involved. In other words, they do it because they think it's cool. They will attend anti-America and anti-Israeli marches, and then go home to post on Facebook about how radical they are and give themselves a pat on the back. The more dedicated may read Karl Marx and dabble in Islam.

Most children grow out of this phase when they realise it's time to cut the ridiculous ponytail, shave the bum fluff goatee, and get a job to pay the bills. The put on a suit and join the capitalist workforce that they denounced as evil a few years earlier. Oh the irony.

Sadly, some poor individuals never grow out of this adolescent mindset and fail to ever grasp a mature understanding of the world or its politics. They remain unemployable for life and so sit at home all day, posting long hate filled diatribes on internet forums, under the delusion that people are listening to them. Take the politics forum on this site for example. There are at least five Israel/Palestine threads on the first page. Let me remind you that this is an Irish site. We have zero historical ties to Palestine. Most Palestinians have never even heard of Ireland. Why not the same obsession with China/Tibet? Or Russia/Chechnya?

My question is: what makes a white, middle class, Trinity student in Ireland think that they can save the world? Remember when Irish student Kate O'Sullivan made an embarassing attempt to perform a citizen's arrest on Tony Blair at his book signing in Dublin last year? Cringe. Blair just rolled his eyes and made a nod towards security to chuck her out on the street with the other loonies. Only in Ireland. She will remain unemployable for life. I wouldn't expect any other diplmats to bother visiting Ireland again.

look at live leak, the coverage of 9/11 and pretty much everything thats happened in the the last 30 years... Scepticisim is one thing, but i agree, somefolks don't know where to draw the line at " this much i can tell is well research, the ideals/propghanda work in his/her favor " etc.

honestly, their full of ****e and its just a college buzz before they have to grow up i guess...

Billy86

Sprouts wrote: »

Cant believe anyone would actually read that then count the lines and then post on it with their thoughts, well done.

I take it reading and counting are not really your thing, eh?

Greentopia

Oh noes, now I'll have to throw away my red Shéa t-shirt I got in Cork and my green and white keffiyah I bought a few years ago for no other reason than I liked the look of it and it keeps my neck warm, because I might be seen by the OP as a lefty white middle-class Trinity student :pac:

cookies221

The Saint wrote: »

What about white people in the west who live comfortable middle class lives pretending they "feel" the pain of the Israeli's plight?

It's insincere and so is an insult to Palestinians living in refugee camps. If you actually care about their plight, boycott Israeli products. This means no more Starbucks coffee. Next you may want to throw away the computer you're reading this on, as its processor is more than likely produced in Israel. Finally, and this is important, don't ever take any medicines again. Chances are high that they are produced in israel or on the Israeli company TEVA. Too many of these armchair revolutionaries are comfortable benefiting from products made in Israel, yet they spend all day crying about how evil the country is. Hypocrites.

minidazzler wrote: »

Sorry now, but sometimes violence is exactly the answer.

Let's look at the IRA between 1916 and 1921, plenty of murders there which got us to the table. I'm not condoning the killings, but it got sh1t done.

Sometimes, the only way a government will truly listen to it's people is when it's people have a boot on the neck of the government.

I don't know where to start with this one. Such gross revisionism. Britain was close to granting Ireland independence but then WW1 broke out and the process was postponed until after the war. But a collection of mentally unstable loonies couldn't wait and thought it would be a good idea to occupy a post office and proclaim an Irish Republi in an extremely unpopular uprising that resulted in the destruction of Dublin. Violence has never achieved anything in our history.

Sprouts wrote: »

Cant believe anyone would actually read that then count the lines and then post on it with their thoughts, well done.

Pathetic I know, but it's the only argument some people can come up with.

FlutterinBantam

cookies221 wrote: »

Teenagers like to rebel ......etc.


My question is: what makes a white, middle class, Trinity student in Ireland think that they can save the world? Remember when Irish student Kate O'Sullivan made an embarassing attempt to perform a citizen's arrest on Tony Blair at his book signing in Dublin last year? Cringe. Blair just rolled his eyes and made a nod towards security to chuck her out on the street with the other loonies. Only in Ireland. She will remain unemployable for life. I wouldn't expect any other diplmats to bother visiting Ireland again.

Excellent post cookies,and one which has puzzled me too.

Unfortunately as you quite rightly pointed out, these kind of people do operate from ,usually, the safe bastions of Public service or semi-state employment and foist their idealistic views of world order on the rest of us trying to keep our heads above water.

They seem to think it's fashionable to be anti US ,Israeli,British and pro whatever far away cause they may eschew with thinking the matter through clearly.

Otherwise they are usually immature idealistic 'students' who have never paid a red cent tax and when this phase is over and they have got their education at John Qs expense will turn out to be bastions of society.

These people would be far better off trying to help the needy and poor in their own country, but of course there is no kudos or cred. in that.

Well said sir.

Mardy Bum

cookies221 wrote: »

I don't know where to start with this one. Such gross revisionism. Britain was close to granting Ireland independence but then WW1 broke out and the process was postponed until after the war. But a collection of mentally unstable loonies couldn't wait and thought it would be a good idea to occupy a post office and proclaim an Irish Republi in an extremely unpopular uprising that resulted in the destruction of Dublin. Violence has never achieved anything in our history.



Pathetic I know, but it's the only argument some people can come up with.

Home Rule was postponed not independence and that wasn't 'close' to independence either. What were you saying about gross revisionism?

alastair

For what it's worth - two comments:

OP is a loon - and what's that they say about fighting with a pig?

Starbucks has nothing to do with Israeli goods, so no need to boycott there, imaginary faux-revolutionary Islam-dabbling Trinity hipsters.

Billy86

FlutterinBantam wrote: »

Excellent post cookies,and one which has puzzled me too.

Unfortunately as you quite rightly pointed out, these kind of people do operate from ,usually, the safe bastions of Public service or semi-state employment and foist their idealistic views of world order on the rest of us trying to keep our heads above water.

Wait, I thought the line was that those who feel Israel is mishandling the situation, were utterly unemployable students from rich backgrounds who all go to Trinity? You guys don't think you might be... projecting a little here, do you? Just a smidgen, perhaps?

I suppose though, the Turkish government would fit your description given that they are an entire state body themselves. So you've got a point there.

Otherwise they are usually immature idealistic 'students' who have never paid a red cent tax and when this phase is over and they have got their education at John Qs expense will turn out to be bastions of society.

Ahh, there we are! You had me worried there for a moment. So it is both public sector/semi-state workers and students causing all the trouble. Interesting, I've never seen people project anything-and-everything that they disagree with on these two demographics in an effort to fob off said issues, never ever before in my life.

Anybody fancy putting a pool together to see how long it takes for those who do not support US foreign policy or Israel's treatment of Palestine to be labelled as 'typical travellers' or 'ungrateful forguners'? We're at post #110 now, I would venture a wild guess for... post #246, if we get there.

And what about me then? I work in the private sector, and in insurance at that. So how do I fit into the communist-public-sector-semi-state-worker-who-also-happens-to-be-an-unemployable-student-from-a-rich-background grouping?

Billy86

alastair wrote: »

For what it's worth - two comments:

OP is a loon - and what's that they say about fighting with a pig?

Starbucks has nothing to do with Israeli goods, so no need to boycott there, imaginary faux-revolutionary Islam-dabbling unemployable Trinity hipsters working in the public sector.

Thought I should fix that for you. Get it right, would you! :mad:

c_man

I did a school visit once, one of those events to encourage primary school kids to get into science. It was great fun and then we came to visual illusions and such. I had one of those pictures, stare at the dots for a minute, look up and you'll see Jesus. Anyways all the kids (3rd class) are trying and eventually one lad starts up "I SEE HIM! I SEE HIM!" I say great and tell him to tell the class who he sees "Che Guerva"

He was no doubt setting his sights on Trinity OP.

Monty Burnz

cookies221 wrote: »

Take the politics forum on this site for example. There are at least five Israel/Palestine threads on the first page. Let me remind you that this is an Irish site. We have zero historical ties to Palestine. Most Palestinians have never even heard of Ireland.

You don't need 'historical ties' to object to human rights abuses, or spot when a massive historical injustice is in progress. The people who are rallying to the Palestinian cause are the same type of people who would have defended the Jews in the 30s and 40s. Would you have had such contempt for them then?

cookies221 wrote: »

Why not the same obsession with China/Tibet? Or Russia/Chechnya?

Good question. I would venture a few suggestions: perhaps because we expect better of Israel, a state made up mostly of immigrants who have experience of being driven from their homes, much as they are driving the Palestinians from theirs? In addition, Jewish people have been at the forefront of humanitarian causes and enlightened thought for centuries.

China and Russia have no such traditions or history. Russia is a failed imperial power, corrupt from top to bottom, with a long history of oppression of both its own population and neighbours. China is little better.

The Saint

cookies221 wrote: »

It's insincere and so is an insult to Palestinians living in refugee camps. If you actually care about their plight, boycott Israeli products. This means no more Starbucks coffee. Next you may want to throw away the computer you're reading this on, as its processor is more than likely produced in Israel. Finally, and this is important, don't ever take any medicines again. Chances are high that they are produced in israel or on the Israeli company TEVA. Too many of these armchair revolutionaries are comfortable benefiting from products made in Israel, yet they spend all day crying about how evil the country is. Hypocrites.

And I take it that given your sincerity you have been to these refugee camps that you seek to do all in your power to ameliorate their suffering? Given your affinity for the Israeli cause and your regular pontification on the issue that you get directly involved in seeking to defend that state. If not, then are you not just sitting behind your monitor being a little keyboard warrior? It seems very strange that you act in a mirror image manner to those that you are ridiculing. You just come at it from a different angle. Hypocrisy indeed.

Oh, it would be difficult for me to boycott Israeli products, even if I chose to. I do however boycott settlement products.

Monty Burnz

The Saint wrote: »

Oh, it would be difficult for me to boycott Israeli products, even if I chose to. I do however boycott settlement products.

A trade boycott and sporting isolation did wonders in breaking down another apartheid state, South Africa. I wonder will we ever see such pressure applied to Israel?

Of course, SA was another of those hip, left-wing causes and I'm sure that Cookie is saddened by the freedoms won by the black majority population. Presumably, in the 80's, he would have been bitching about those people opposed to apartheid due to our lack of any historical and cultural connection, and of course the fact that white SA had a right to exist.

Nodin

cookies221 wrote: »

It's insincere and so is an insult to Palestinians living in refugee camps. If(.........)ome people can come up with.

You may have missed this....
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=74344402&postcount=101

4leto

I like what the comedian John Bishop said about the "che" tshirts, the revolutionary is meant to rephresent a fairer society for the poor, but the tshirts are worn by middle class armchair warriors and are made by the exploited poor in the sweat shops of Asia.

Something like that and OK he made it funny.

Monty Burnz

4leto wrote: »

I like what the comedian John Bishop said about the "che" tshirts, the revolutionary is meant to rephresent a fairer society for the poor, but the tshirts are worn by middle class armchair warriors and are made by the exploited poor in the sweat shops of Asia.

Given a choice, I'd wager someone in a poor country would rather be working in a sweatshop than sitting on their arse and starving.