€100bn public sector pension bill

squod

According to Eddie Hobbs there's a ''debt mountain'' of €100bn facing the Irsh citizen because the extraordinary cost of public sector pensions. During his piece today on Newstalk radio he spoke of massive €5 & €6million payouts for some top civil servants.

He went on to suggest that policy surrounding these pensions were set mostly by interested parties and that Ireland could not sustain this bill. So should we cap the pensions to say 60 or €70k? Do you thingk it's right abd good that the country be lumbered with these debts at this time?

remove salary-linked increases and you'll save a fortune

Phill Ewinn

That right? I'm shocked. That's more than the IMF bill.

Mike 1972

squod wrote: »

According to Eddie Hobbs .....

Stopped reading after that.

Biggins

Mike 1972 wrote: »

Stopped reading after that.

Its fine to dislike Hobbs, not a fan myself (he irritates me) but if there is any truth in what he says, he does have a point.

Biggins

squod wrote: »

...So should we cap the pensions to say 60 or €70k? Do you thingk it's right abd good that the country be lumbered with these debts at this time?

Definitely. We simply can't afford to be giving this mad money away.
Its bad enough we did more so with the banks.
Maybe the temp' introduction of a new tax on them might help, I dunno know.
Open to suggestions...

woodoo

Scandalous payouts. But what can be done? Nothing. These guys are the buddies of the governing classes.

krudler

stop the country, I want to get off

Phoenix Park

Its too late for Ireland now. The people who are in a position to make decisions regarding pension cuts in the public sector have generous pensions lined up themselves. Its about looking after No 1 in this country, even if it means letting the majority go to ruin.
30 years of misery all round, minimum.

Biggins

Phoenix Park wrote: »

...Its about looking after No 1 in this country, even if it means letting the majority go to ruin.
30 years of misery all round, minimum.

Indeed.

What will our current lot (not just FG) do about it?
Nothing I suspect. They are too closely entwined with those that are gaining these pay-offs.

ilovesleep

We all know now that the celtic tiger was a farce and everybodys income will have to come down to match that of other european countries.
These celtic tiger payoffs/pensions will have to come down. Why should the incomes of the little slave man on the street come down and not these?

Would I be right in thinking that these pensions/payoffs will be coming out from the public coffers?
This is one area, in conjunction with other measures that the deficit could be corrected.

Make the slaves pay as usual.

The Waltzing Consumer

Please tell me why a new tax, on public sector pensions over a certain amount, cannot be introduced? Yeah, pay the pensions, but tax the hell out of them, you ain't breaking any contract.

not yet

Fvck em................

Give them nothing greedy basturds

hardCopy

Whatever about existing pension commitments.

Why were we still offering defined benefit pensions to new recruits. Surely it's a no-brainer to at least lessen the preborn your future generations?

Phoenix Park

The Waltzing Consumer wrote: »

Please tell me why a new tax, on public sector pensions over a certain amount, cannot be introduced? Yeah, pay the pensions, but tax the hell out of them, you ain't breaking any contract.

because the guy who introduces it also pays the tax, as does the guy sitting beside him and the guy on the other side of him. Such a tax might be further introduced, but it will be tiny. A token gesture. The majority will literally starve in Ireland before the public sector takes the hit it should. I don't wish to mindlessly bash the public sector, but that is a fact. Those who moan about 7/8/12 whatever % pay cuts....try a 80/100% pay cut for size, like so many have.

The Waltzing Consumer

hardCopy wrote: »

Whatever about existing pension commitments.

Why were we still offering defined benefit pensions to new recruits. Surely it's a no-brainer to at least lessen the preborn your future generations?

How is that fair? The people working and in charge of the system gave themselves some of the best conditions and pay in the world, they get to reap the rewards now? They messed it up, they should be the first to get any cuts.

MagicSean

Phoenix Park wrote: »

because the guy who introduces it also pays the tax, as does the guy sitting beside him and the guy on the other side of him. Such a tax might be further introduced, but it will be tiny. A token gesture. The majority will literally starve in Ireland before the public sector takes the hit it should. I don't wish to mindlessly bash the public sector, but that is a fact. Those who moan about 7/8/12 whatever % pay cuts....try a 80/100% pay cut for size, like so many have.

There goes the thread.

Phoenix Park

Seanbeag1 wrote: »

There goes the thread.

sorry, my bad i guess. i should have stayed in bed.

7sr2z3fely84g5

The croke park agreement has turned out to be a joke,wrong people are getting cut whilst a minority are hesitant for a reform,in todays sindo reading it would make you physically sick,im surprised the IMFF have no teeth to try introduce some form of a heavy tax on this-
http://www.independent.ie/national-news/euro300m-retirement-jamboree-is-dished-out-to-99-civil-servants-2873163.html

FORMER government secretary general Dermot McCarthy is just one of 99 top senior civil servants to retire on "maximum pension benefits" since January 2008, at an estimated total cost of almost €300m to the taxpayer -- or an average of €3m each.
A cosseted coterie of the nation's retired top civil servants, who were responsible for overseeing Ireland's calamitous demise in recent years, will benefit most from an extensive and incredibly generous system of perks, which they awarded themselves.
Over the lifetime of his pension, Mr McCarthy's retirement fund has been estimated to be worth more than €5m. Virtually all of the others who have stepped down have seen massive value added to their pensions.
According to official figures obtained by this newspaper, 13 secretaries-general have stepped down from their posts since the beginning of 2008. Between them they received pension lump sums and severance payments totalling €4.9m.
On top of this, most of them will receive an annual pension of €124,000, with Mr McCarthy and former Department of Finance boss David Doyle receiving over €140,000 for the rest of their lives.
In stark contrast to the hardship being endured by those caught in negative equity and the unemployed, those at the very top of the public service have been insulated from the hardship of the recession by an incredible series of retirement benefits, entitlements, top-ups and severance payments.
It has also emerged that since July 2005, eight of the most senior civil servants who retired from the Department of Finance shared a staggering pot of €2.4m in pension lump sums and "special severance" payments alone.
The cost to the State of public service pensions has increased by 65 per cent in the past five years, according to figures from the Department of Finance.
The net pensions bill for retired State employees was €2.236bn last year, compared to a comparable bill of €1.35bn in 2005.
Retired civil servants like Mr McCarthy should be taxed and barred from any appointments, Fine Gael TD Derek Keating said this weekend.
He has written to the Taoiseach, requesting that consideration be given to a new tax on such large amounts of money being paid to officials in the public sector.
"I am furious at this," Mr Keating said. "What sort of message is this sending?
"Place yourself in the shoes of a young family trying to manage a mortgage or the workers who received bad news in Talk Talk this week."
Mr McCarthy was yesterday described by Fianna Fail national executive member and developer Jerry Beades as "the grand architect of all that went wrong in this country".
Speaking to the Sunday Independent, Mr Beades said most people would not realise that Mr McCarthy's "sticky fingers" were all over the disastrous benchmarking, social partnership and the bank guarantee.
James Hamilton, who has served as Director of Public Prosecutions for 12 years, is one of a host of top-level State employees set to retire with their full benefits ahead of pension cuts next February.
Tax experts say the move at this time could save more than €12,000 a year on his pension.
By retiring this year, Mr Hamilton's pension and lump sum will be calculated on his salary of almost €240,000.
If he stayed beyond February 2012, his pension and lump sum would be calculated on the basis of his new reduced salary of €215,590.
It has been confirmed that up to 55 senior civil servants are in line for gold-plated exit packages worth up to €634,000 if they retire by February, when the punitive new pension rules will kick in.

Their pay offs are like winning the lotto plus draws!.

ilovesleep

There is a country in europe with a government! Am I right?
We need to get the current crowd out and hand ourselves over to europe. Things would be done fairer (i hope) and we might have some sort of hope of survival. Continue on with this selfish crowd in place, we haven't a hope and we will be defaulting.

not yet

Phoenix Park wrote: »

because the guy who introduces it also pays the tax, as does the guy sitting beside him and the guy on the other side of him. Such a tax might be further introduced, but it will be tiny. A token gesture. The majority will literally starve in Ireland before the public sector takes the hit it should. I don't wish to mindlessly bash the public sector, but that is a fact. Those who moan about 7/8/12 whatever % pay cuts....try a 80/100% pay cut for size, like so many have.

WOULD YOU EVER COP THE FCUK ON..................

Nobody and I mean nobody takes a 100% pay cut so get you facts right.

If you lose your job you are entitled to dole payment,rent allowance, and a whole host of other payments.

PS workers I know and work with are paid 22k a year. They have taken a 15% pay cut. They also pay 15% of pay into a pension scheme.

If at 65 they get 300euro a week pension, the state pension is then means tested, I worked with a guy recently retired on 290euro a week, He now gets 66 euro of a state pension. so in real terms he's big fat PS pension is worth 56 euro a week.

The Waltzing Consumer

not yet wrote: »

WOULD YOU EVER COP THE FCUK ON..................

Nobody and I mean nobody takes a 100% pay cut so get you facts right.

If you lose your job you are entitled to dole payment,rent allowance, and a whole host of other payments.

PS workers I know and work with are paid 22k a year. They have taken a 15% pay cut. They also pay 15% of pay into a pension scheme.

If at 65 the get 300euro a week pension, the state pension is then means tested, I worked with a guy recently retired on 290euro a week, He now get 66 euro of a state pension. so in real terms he's big fat PS pension is worth 56 euro a week.

Yes because we know that everyone in the PS is working on 22k and that everyone retired is only getting 56 euro. No offense but there is zero point in showing two examples which back up your point, do you know anyone in the PS earning more then 22k a year?

squod

Haven't read a newspaper all day, which is unusual. Wonder what the reaction would be if a story like this made headlines. Would FF/FG react?

From my point of view some of the previous shower should be in jail along with whoever it was that supported them in the public service for their part in the Anglo bail-out fraud.

Blanchguy

not yet wrote: »

WOULD YOU EVER COP THE FCUK ON..................

PS workers I know and work with are paid 22k a year. They have taken a 15% pay cut. They also pay 15% of pay into a pension scheme.

If at 65 they get 300euro a week pension, the state pension is then means tested, I worked with a guy recently retired on 290euro a week, He now gets 66 euro of a state pension. so in real terms he's big fat PS pension is worth 56 euro a week.

You sure about all those figures? They should only have taken a 5% pay cut if they are earning less than €30k, and 15% should include all their taxes etc - see here http://www.finance.gov.ie/documents/publications/other/2009/pensiondedtablemay09.pdf

You should have some good news for them on Monday morning...

And that guy on €290 a week was on less than the minimum wage, which seems pretty unlikely... Did he never get an increment?

not yet

The Waltzing Consumer wrote: »

Yes because we know that everyone in the PS is working on 22k and that everyone retired is only getting 56 euro. No offense but there is zero point in showing two examples which back up your point, do you know anyone in the PS earning more then 22k a year?

Yes,Yes I do but I know nobody on 90k-100k or more, so why are ordinary PS workers lumped in with consultants, professors, quango's, and all higher paid PS.

I can tell you I know 50-60 people in the PS on 22k - 32k. Now these people gET no help from anywhere.

not yet

Blanchguy wrote: »

You sure about all those figures? They should only have taken a 5% pay cut if they are earning less than €30k, and 15% should include all their taxes etc - see here http://www.finance.gov.ie/documents/publications/other/2009/pensiondedtablemay09.pdf

You should have some good news for them on Monday morning...

And that guy on €290 a week was on less than the minimum wage, which seems pretty unlikely... Did he never get an increment?

No funny enough he never did............

Want to know why, because he was just a plain aul driver in the council.

Does that answer your question. Not all PS workers are earning 60k+

Biggins

squod wrote: »

Haven't read a newspaper all day, which is unusual. Wonder what the reaction would be if a story like this made headlines. Would FF/FG react?

"If true, we are disturbed to hear of these costs and of course we will look into them with the utmost urgency. We will set-up a committee to overview the situation and report back in 6 to 12 months time with a detailed report which will then be put to the government table to review, which in turn will take another six months to define a strategy to tackle the problem! It will take another year after that, to implement it."

"Don't dare say we stand by and do nothing!"

End of Press release.

RacoonQueen

Bloody public servants. Glad I'm not one of them anymore.

Good to see the governement are still looking after my pension though.

not yet

Blanchguy wrote: »

You sure about all those figures? They should only have taken a 5% pay cut if they are earning less than €30k, and 15% should include all their taxes etc - see here http://www.finance.gov.ie/documents/publications/other/2009/pensiondedtablemay09.pdf

You should have some good news for them on Monday morning...

And that guy on €290 a week was on less than the minimum wage, which seems pretty unlikely... Did he never get an increment?

By the way please,please please read my post again before you makes statements like 290 is below minimum wage, it CLEARLY states 290 was he's pension........................no fcuking wonder so much sh1te and crap is thrown about regrading the PS.

Blanchguy

Yeah when they can't keep their fairy tales straight...

Your €22k friends still paying 15% for their pension? And taken a 15% paycut?

not yet

Blanchguy wrote: »

Yeah when they can't keep their fairy tales straight...

Your €22k friends still paying 15% for their pension? And taken a 15% paycut?

Go away and stop annoying me before I say something that will get me banned.

HarryPotter41

Blanchguy wrote: »

Yeah when they can't keep their fairy tales straight...

Your €22k friends still paying 15% for their pension? And taken a 15% paycut?

I pay just over 10% of my income to my pension, take home pay is down 15%. Both factual statements, but don't suit your argument so everyone must be lying.

Bosco boy

HarryPotter41 wrote: »

Blanchguy wrote: »

Yeah when they can't keep their fairy tales straight...

Your €22k friends still paying 15% for their pension? And taken a 15% paycut?

I pay just over 10% of my income to my pension, take home pay is down 15%. Both factual statements, but don't suit your argument so everyone must be lying.

was seanie fitz or fingers finglton in the public sector or private sector? If I remember correctly they got quite good pensions. Ah! Yes the public sector are all to blame!

The Waltzing Consumer

Bosco boy wrote: »

was seanie fitz or fingers finglton in the public sector or private sector? If I remember correctly they got quite good pensions. Ah! Yes the public sector are all to blame!

You are being quite defensive, for no good reason. There is a large large portion of the public service, who were completely incompetent, who created and maintained a golden lifestyle, who are very much to blame for the state of our public service, and who should quite rightly not get these full pensions whilst younger generations of public and private workers get peanuts in comparison. I am for paying my way, but start with these guys, then roll down.

You may have one or two examples, but what about the countless examples of complete incompetence rewarded by huge salaries and pensions eg FAS.

HarryPotter41

The Waltzing Consumer wrote: »

You are being quite defensive, for no good reason. There is a large large portion of the public service, who were completely incompetent, who created and maintained a golden lifestyle, who are very much to blame for the state of our public service, and who should quite rightly not get these full pensions whilst younger generations of public and private workers get peanuts in comparison. I am for paying my way, but start with these guys, then roll down.

You may have one or two examples, but what about the countless examples of complete incompetence rewarded by huge salaries and pensions eg FAS.

True, but the public swallow what the media feed them and that is that every single one of us is on the gravy train. As for the wonderful increments, my last one was worth €10 take home to me, have no idea what foreign holiday to spend that one on.

KerranJast

HarryPotter41 wrote: »

True, but the public swallow what the media feed them and that is that every single one of us is on the gravy train. As for the wonderful increments, my last one was worth €10 take home to me, have no idea what foreign holiday to spend that one on.

If you actually listened the original piece (its The Dunphy Show Sept 11 part 1 on the Newstalk player) you'd hear that its not the average to lower paid PS/CS worker pensions thats the issue.
There are a lot of higher paid PS workers including politicians, judges, department heads, semi state officals etc that will be getting pensions of upwards of €150k per annum which amounts to a liability to the State of €5-6m per person which is where the €120B figure comes from.

Bosco boy

The Waltzing Consumer wrote: »

Bosco boy wrote: »

was seanie fitz or fingers finglton in the public sector or private sector? If I remember correctly they got quite good pensions. Ah! Yes the public sector are all to blame!

You are being quite defensive, for no good reason. There is a large large portion of the public service, who were completely incompetent, who created and maintained a golden lifestyle, who are very much to blame for the state of our public service, and who should quite rightly not get these full pensions whilst younger generations of public and private workers get peanuts in comparison. I am for paying my way, but start with these guys, then roll down.

You may have one or two examples, but what about the countless examples of complete incompetence rewarded by huge salaries and pensions eg FAS.

it's sections of the private sector like the banks, property developers, estate agents and speculators that created the false boom and current bust, public sector wages were driven up because public sector workers were leaving to join the private sector for the easy money and the unions made that case. Many who sneered at public sector workers during the Celtic tiger because of the low wages the public sector were on are now in the **** and the easy think to do is blame the other person. Public sector have had huge cuts already, but it's the private sector debt that hangs over everyone and makes the public sector unaffordable. But I accept there are inefficencies that could be looked at especially the top of the public sector. I'd call them public sector senior management. We also have to cut the social welfare bill especially childrens allowence which is crazy!

Sky King

The same Eddie Hobbs that advised everyone to leverage themselves up to their tits to buy property in 2006 on his TV show?

This alone invalidates any further recession commentary by Eddie Hobbs.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=riFSbr-TgTg

Sam Vimes

Bosco boy wrote: »

it's sections of the private sector like the banks, property developers, estate agents and speculators that created the false boom and current bust, public sector wages were driven up because public sector workers were leaving to join the private sector for the easy money and the unions made that case. Many who sneered at public sector workers during the Celtic tiger because of the low wages the public sector were on are now in the **** and the easy think to do is blame the other person. Public sector have had huge cuts already, but it's the private sector debt that hangs over everyone and makes the public sector unaffordable. But I accept there are inefficencies that could be looked at especially the top of the public sector. I'd call them public sector senior management. We also have to cut the social welfare bill especially childrens allowence which is crazy!

Sorry I just think it's kind of funny that you can see the merits of cuts in the private sector, social welfare, children's allowance and the top of the public sector. To me it looks a bit like you can see the merits in cuts for everyone except the group that you just happen to fall into.

You might not even work in the PS but that's just what it looks like from that post.

Blanchguy

HarryPotter41 wrote: »

I pay just over 10% of my income to my pension, take home pay is down 15%. Both factual statements, but don't suit your argument so everyone must be lying.

Everyone's take home pay is down. How much is your gross pay down? Everyone pays PRSI, if you are including that in your 10%. Are you?

Never accused anyone of lying, some people are just a little bit too trusting of stories they are told by their friends.

Not Yet admitted he can't stand over his facts and just has abuse to fall back on.

HarryPotter41

KerranJast wrote: »

If you actually listened the original piece (its The Dunphy Show Sept 11 part 1 on the Newstalk player) you'd hear that its not the average to lower paid PS/CS worker pensions thats the issue.
There are a lot of higher paid PS workers including politicians, judges, department heads, semi state officals etc that will be getting pensions of upwards of €150k per annum which amounts to a liability to the State of €5-6m per person which is where the €120B figure comes from.

The liability is dependant on the person lasting for years after retirement, the figures are a worst case scenario and designed to be sensationalist. Most PS workers at the high end will never live long enough to cause that financial liability to the state.

HarryPotter41

Blanchguy wrote: »

Everyone's take home pay is down. How much is your gross pay down? Everyone pays PRSI, if you are including that in your 10%. Are you?

Never accused anyone of lying, some people are just a little bit too trusting of stories they are told by their friends.

Not Yet admitted he can't stand over his facts and just has abuse to fall back on.

Actually, not everyones take home pay is down, I have friends in the private sector who got pay rises that have offset any change in their pay so they are at the same take home level. My percentages are based on pre tax take changes. I don't rely on my firends, I work in the PS. You seem to be willing to trust what others say about the PS, why not the other poster.

Blanchguy

Only source I quoted was the Department of Finance? Are you saying that this isn't correct.

My questions were nicely dodged.

HarryPotter41

Blanchguy wrote: »

Only source I quoted was the Department of Finance? Are you saying that this isn't correct.

My questions were nicely dodged.

If you look, they were answered

kincsem

When people start talking about how changes affected their "take home" pay it confuses things. We do not know their tax or pension deduction percentages, and when people say their "take home" pay has fallen how can we judge the reasons? My take home pay would fall if I asked HR to pay more to my credit union account.

Dyr

The whole pension scam is madness..both public and private sector. An inevitable effect of the me féin values we have.

Bosco boy

Sam Vimes wrote: »

Bosco boy wrote: »

it's sections of the private sector like the banks, property developers, estate agents and speculators that created the false boom and current bust, public sector wages were driven up because public sector workers were leaving to join the private sector for the easy money and the unions made that case. Many who sneered at public sector workers during the Celtic tiger because of the low wages the public sector were on are now in the **** and the easy think to do is blame the other person. Public sector have had huge cuts already, but it's the private sector debt that hangs over everyone and makes the public sector unaffordable. But I accept there are inefficencies that could be looked at especially the top of the public sector. I'd call them public sector senior management. We also have to cut the social welfare bill especially childrens allowence which is crazy!

Sorry I just think it's kind of funny that you can see the merits of cuts in the private sector, social welfare, children's allowance and the top of the public sector. To me it looks a bit like you can see the merits in cuts for everyone except the group that you just happen to fall into.

You might not even work in the PS but that's just what it looks like from that post.

You would be incorrect

johnners2981

They can't touch the older PS workers cause of their unions, its the new younger ones who are footing the bill. Thats hardly fair seeing as they didn't cause this.
I hear so many stories of crap lazy teachers on permanent contracts and they can't do a thing to them

gigino

The Waltzing Consumer wrote: »

Please tell me why a new tax, on public sector pensions over a certain amount, cannot be introduced? Yeah, pay the pensions, but tax the hell out of them, you ain't breaking any contract.

+1. Could'nt agree more. Its scandalous what retired public servants get - some of whom I know very well. They even admit themselves they get far too big a pension.

MagicSean

gigino wrote: »

+1. Could'nt agree more. Its scandalous what retired public servants get - some of whom I know very well. They even admit themselves they get far too big a pension.

I thought you were banned from all public sector threads. Maybe i was just hoping it though.

gigino

As Eddie Hobbs would say, or the great Michael O'Leary would say, shooting the messenger will not solve the billions beings poured in to the public sector "scam" ( as O'Leary called it ). A mod employed in the public sector banned me from Irish politics , nothing more. That is more a reflection on the lack of free speech in boards.ie than anything else.